After my Viola lesson yesterday and the discussion of instruments coming up I was advised not to buy the instrument I am renting when the rent is due up on it and after getting to listen and play a little on my teachers Viola I see why, she then advised me to buy an old instrument.

Question - is old normally better?

As I have this instrument for four months on this rental term, I can extend to any amount of time so if I was not to find the right instrument after 4 months I would extend the term to 8 months (don't really want to be renting for any longer than this though) will be looking though as you never know what is going to come up.

Is it better to buy the instrument and bow seperately or as an outfit?

Size seems to be a bit of an issue as well my teachers Viola is much bigger than mine and she seems to think I could handle it fine (I felt comfortable with it but am only at a very basic level of playing, open bows, first three fingers, I imagine problems with size occur when you get to the high positions?) She said go and try as many as you can before you do settle on a Viola as you'll know what is right for you, while I know this to be the case, the instrument picks you that seems to be my case with Clarinets

How much would it cost to have an old instrument properly "set up"? The new instruments I presume do not need setting up as they are new.

The short answer is no, old instruments are not better.

A good handmade new instrument will be slightly bettered by an old instrument which was of the same quality when new, but this will only be true for a few months whilst the new instrument settles. The old instrument, however, will cost more than the new one.

If you are not planning on spending considerable amounts of money (as in several thousands), then buy new every time. You will find old instruments in the same price range as modern good quality chinese instruments, but they won't be anywhere near as good.

Discopants is the person we need to explain this best, I think.

there was an interesting note in the last issue of FiddleOn, claiming that very old violins (Strad-era) sound better because of the unique quality of the wood around that time--something that's impossible to replicate on modern instruments. i've no idea how true that is, though...

Thankyou

No not planning to spend thousands infact in all honesty as I am only a beginner and due to other financial reasons I want to spend as little as possible on the best instrument I can buy - I was thinking a budget of around £400 for the instrument and £100 for the bow.

How much would you get a modern handmade instrument for? I presume this is into the thousands or not?

I can't really answer your question, I can only tell you what I was told last week when I went to the shop (due to viola issues).

The man asked me if my viola was modern or old. My viola happens to be modern but 'antiqued' ie its a new instrument but it was made individually by a luthier and the 'antiqued' it so it looks old.
When I tried the older ones I didn't like them as much as the newer ones. The man in the shop told me that the old violas that are really lovely are thousands and thousnads of pounds, however newer ones that are nice cost a lot less, which is why I got a better quality new viola in my price range than the older ones. (I hope this is making sense)

basically what I'm trying to say is don't discount the new instruments, I'm guessing that with your budget you'd be looking at a new instrument anyway

Hope you're enjoying the viola, it is a lovely instrument.

x

I would say then, that for 400 UK, new is definitely going to be much better. You won't get luthier made for that price, but you'd get something like a Gliga gems, which would be very nice and much better than an older instrument costing the same. Speak to liz from Elida trading who posts on here when the time comes.

Enjoy!

Thanks

Had a look on Elida they look really nice instruments

Also seen on *shock horror* Ebay ...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...alenotsupported

Anyone heard of them?

Are these worth the money OR is it just a very nice looking thing that isn't much more? Not actually expecting a "professional" instrument but as an instrument for a beginner to go through some grades and join the local orchestra (will probably be upgraded before then too!)

Yita's top level instruments make very nice instruments indeed - they are high end student instruments (like the gliga) - they are such well made instruments that some professional players have them as second instruments for gigs where they don't want to risk their antique italian instruments.

For a few hundred pounds, and a hundred or so spent on upgrading strings (absolutely necessary) and bridge (necessary pretty soon) - you'll have a nice instrument indeed.

I'm completely with Allan, I've got a Yita viola which is far better than anything else I tried up to several times the cost of the Yita, and know a couple of pupils and colleagues who are also very happy. It arrived well packaged but with the bridge down so I took it to my luthier immediately to change the strings (I've got Dominants on at the moment but will probably try a Larsen A sometime) and he set the bridge and soundpost correctly for me at the same time for no extra charge. The bows that even the better instrument s come with are not brilliant but OK - I upgraded mine for a better one eventually but have a pupil preparing for Grade 7 on a T20 still with the original bow which seems to be just right for him.

Sounds like a bargain and that Viola is so pretty OK I know it shouldn't be what is considered when buying a Viola

Is the T20, like the one I shown? Strings wise is the best set up Dominants on C, G, D and a Larsen on the A? What type of bow would be recommended?

How long do they take to come from Yita?

It will take a couple of weeks to come from yita in China.

The strings really depend on the instrument - my viola (not a yita, though) has helicores on it and I've seen Yita violas with Helicore, dominant, larsen, jargar etc on them - it really is a preference thing (yours and the instrument's). Your luthier will be the best person to advise on that.

It will, as minstrel pointed out, come with the bridge down. If you're feeling strongly about getting the best sound possible, you'd be better off throwing the bridge in the bin and getting your luthier to carve and fit a new one for you.

A word of advice, buy from the auction rather than the fixed price part of their site - the instruments rarely reach the same price as the 'buy now' ones so you'll end up paying considerably less in many cases.

Allan

Thanks

So I can get the instrument here and set up for the time that my rental instrument goes back (I have to rent for four months at a time) would you recommend buying about 3 weeks - 1 month before my instrument is due to be renewed?

I'd want to get everything done and ready for me, bridge, strings and a new bow if I was to go for one of these instruments then I haven't got to worry about it and can just get on with playing!

Don't know what I'm going for yet though, as I want to visit a couple of localish string instrument specialists, look at the Gligas and see whats going on the Ebay with Yita, plenty of time and no rush which is a nice position to be in really

Yes, I think a month would be ideal.

Enjoy your instrument hunt!

Jealous Allan.

I can't remember exactly but I think my Yita viola took just over a week to arrive from payment. They have a consignment tracking facility when you order so I was able to follow my viola's journey online. I didn't actually buy through ebay - I had set myself a budget and when I did not win either of the instruments I initially wanted through the auction I contacted Yita directly by email asking for a quote as there was not one matching the exact specification I wanted on ebay at the time. They were very easy to deal with directly and I actually got a lovely instrument for rather less than the auction prices I had bid up to. Doing it that way I got to chose the exact style and colour I wanted as well as the model and size. Check the currency that they quote you in - I didn't look properly and assumed the price they were quoting me was in sterling (which I would have been happy with) and it wasn't until later that I realised that they had quoted in US$, at a time when there were rather more dollars to the pound than at present so my viola worked out even cheaper than I had expected.

My luthier - who knew I was looking for a viola and had been hoping to find one to sell to me - was initially horrified when I walked in to confess I'd bought one off ebay that needed some better strings and the bridge standing up but was actually very impressed when he saw the instrument. I bought the strings (dominants) from him which he put on there and then, put the bridge up for me and slightly adjusted the soundpost, all for the price of the strings. He suggested that I could improve the sound further by getting a better bridge and possibly a better soundpost but it's more than fine for me for now. (his 'better' bridges come in at around £50 and are GOOD but I'm on a budget).

As to bows, they are even more personal than instruments. Wait until you've been playing for long enough to really know what might suit you and what sound you are after. It will definitely be the case that the bow will choose you. When the time comes be prepared to try a LOT of bows from several different places as they all vary so much, in terms of material, weight, balance and style. Different bows work slightly differently with different instruments too, so when you eventually upgrade do take your own instrument with you when trying out bows.

A good time to order your own viola would probably be about a month before the rental one goes back. By then you will have a better idea of how comfortable you are with that size and whether you might prefer a larger - or smaller - instrument. Very generally, the larger the viola the deeper and richer the sound but the price you pay is in having a longer and heavier instrument . I 'theoretically' measure up for a 16" viola but bought a 15 1/2" as it feels much more comfortable and therefore I'm sure I play it much more than I would otherwise. (I am principally a violinist and teacher who doubles on the viola rather than a viola specialist).
Ask your teacher again for advice and also try out some different sized instruments either at Turner's or Sheehans just to get a better feel before you order your own.

Oh.... and nothing wrong with wanting a pretty instrument!

I couldn't agree more, but the viola shown in the ebay link really isn't pretty.
To some extent this is, of course, personal taste, but the very dark, muddy varnish on that instrument is a no-no in my view.
Varnishing is one area where the Yita instruments can go spectacularly wrong, usually when they try to do some kind of "special" effect. When they keep it simple, like on the viola shown by Lottie recently, they look much nicer.

Agreed - mine is one of the slightly lighter 'plainer' ones and it is even lovelier than the pictures.

if you mean the one Nicia-Clarinet-Flute posted, i have to say i quite like that dark, 'muddy' look; at least compared to very lightly varnished instruments, which look a little strange to me. of course, it's very much a personal choice...

Dark doesn't have to be muddy

Which instrument out of the Yita and the Gliga tend to have a more mellow tone? Or is this down to strings etc?

Whats the biggest difference between Gems and Gama, how far would each respective instrument get you and would both be suitable for playing in an amature orchestra?

I would say Gliga instruments have a relatively deep/rich sort of tone, perhaps what you might call mellow. Yita may be brighter I suspect but I have never handled one so don't really know.

One thing to consider is that Gligas arrive ready to play with good strings, working pegs, 4 fine tuners, reasonable string height etc. They are not luthier set-up on arrival but very satisfactory and not needing any work. You might want to take it to a luthier when you are getting towards about grade 8 but should be fine until then. My experience is based on the Genial 1, nearly the cheapest.

Edit: just reread you last post so in answer to your question. I think the Genial 1 would probably do to grade 8 but probably want to upgrade the bow by then. My son plays at around grade 5/6 level on violin and viola and has Genial 1 instruments. Amateur orchestras vary - many require players to be about grade 6. Genial 1 would do in an orchestra like that. Peoples finances vary - at times in my life with a good job and no dependents I would happily have bought a Gama for myself and not considered anything less. When every penny counts (and in my case buying for a child who will grow out of it) Genial 1 is a very good value instrument and will get you a long way.


Hope you have fun whatever you choose

Before I injured my shoulder four years ago, I played a Gama in two amateur orchestras of the type that play standard concert repertoire in town halls. At the time I was working for DipLCM on a Gama (unimproved) and did not feel it was holding me back at that level.

Once again, it depends on your definition of what will "do". My definition has usually been based on lack of money!

Liz

Thankyou for your advise

Liz - is their anyway I can try say a Gems and a Gama viola? Will be about 2 months away.

I should think so - all good strings retailers let instruments go out on approval, you know

Liz

A few weeks ago I bought a T20 viola from Yita and my experience was like Minstrel's - I approached them directly and was offered a very good price (just emailed them via ebay). I also thought it was quite a good price for GBP only to find out it was in USdollars so it was a great buy in the end!! They were really nice; friendly emails and quick turnaround although my viola got stuck in customs and took about ten days to arrive. (No problem with the viola - just some inexplicable holdup).

(Oh don't whatever you do, buy the 'student' outfit - I bought one to start with and the quality is terrible. Horrible and nearly unplayable, but they are made by a completely different bunch of people to their top quality workshop. Their top range though, the T20, really are excellent!)

They sent me photos of a red viola, then an 'antiqued' one neither of which I liked at all but the 'brown' one looked nice. When it arrived it was actually very pretty and a lovely shade of honey-gold so I'm delighted with it. My father was an amateur luthier so he 'set up' the bridge and soundpost (which was down) for me. I've spoken to a violin shop and was quoted around £130 for a professional set-up which I will hopefully do this summer as there are some adjustments I would like that my father can't do for me. The bow was fine for me at this stage although the case is really cheaply made and I'll be replacing that soon I hope.

As for quality; my teacher thinks it's an instrument you'd pay almost three times as much to find anywhere else. It is new and green and will take time to 'play-in' but has every potential of being a rather lovely instrument. I want to play in amateur orchestras and take an exam or two (aiming for Grade 8 sometime in the next 20 years ) and I honestly don't believe I will need to change instrument: it will take me that far.

Here's a photo of my T20 'brown' viola


And here's a close up of the colour


Sorry Allan - I keep forgetting to take a photo of the back Will do so soon!

Will give you a bell nearer the time will you be at the Leeds concert?

Lottie your viola looks lovely

Decisions decisions in a month or two

AAARRRGGGG! *sits and rocks in the corner, feigning patience*

I very much doubt it - it's a great deal of work for almost zero return. Admittedly not quite as bad as the fiddle festival we did in Edinburgh one year where the profit we made didn't even cover the cost of the car park let alone the petrol!

Liz