Nov 7 2004, 02:12 PM
A question for my AS level music homework is to name and define the modes of the major scale.
So far i can only find:
C - C is the Ionian mode
D - D Dorian mode
E - E ??
F - F ??
G - G ??
A - A is the Aoilian mode
B - B ??
Can anyone fill in the gaps so i can research these further please?
Nov 7 2004, 02:25 PM
Try Locrian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Phrygian
(but not in that order) !
Nov 7 2004, 02:37 PM
hey, Maggiemay. D'you mind me adding to your msg?
On E - Phrygian
F - Lydian (abandoned early)
G - Mixolydian
B - Locrian.
You won't find many composers use the Locrian a lot except the American Symphonist, Peter Mennin. Too easy to find yourself in the Phrygian. To make the Lydian work at all its fourth degree was usually flattened which brings it close to the Ionian and not far from the Mixolydian by raising the VII. SO it was dropped. People still compose in it for amusement. Part of Holsts' Symphony was written in the Phrygian.
Worth also looking up... the modes were rarely harmonised in more than the simplest ways - they were the province of plainchant. When singing in harmony took on some sophistication, the favoured modes came down to major, dorian and minor, based on the aeolian.
Nov 8 2004, 12:08 AM
Bartok used the Lydian mode quite a lot! (Also the acoustic scale which is like the Lydian mode but with a flattened seventh as well.) I'm not sure that he considered it only worthy of composing in 'for amusement' though...
I think it can be a mistake to only think of the modes as the 'white note' scales; it makes them clearer if you analyse the structure - the pattern of tones and semitones/which ones are major or minor/which notes are 'altered' from the basic major /minor scales. Then you can transpose them easily to start on any note.
I didn't understand modes until I studied them using solfa, which helped enormously.
The major modes are:
Lydian (fsltd'r'm'f' OR drm fi sltd' - ie a major scale with a raised 4th)
Mixolydian (sltd'r'm'f's' OR drmfsl ta d' - ie major with flattened 7th)
And the minor:
Aeolian or natural minor (ltdrmfsl')
Dorian (rmfsltdr' OR ltdrm fi sl' - ie minor with a raised 4th)
Phrygian (mfsltdrm' OR l ta drmfsl - ie minor with a flattened 7th)
Locrian is the odd one out as its 5th is a diminished one.
Many folk songs are modal. My favourite is the Dorian, YUM YUM!!! Vaughan Williams used the beautiful Dorian 'Lovely Joan' in his Fantasia on Greensleeves.
I'm conscious that I might have confused rather than helped! Solfa really DOES help enormously here, but only really if you DO it rather than read it!
Nov 8 2004, 08:10 AM
I hope you won't mind me disagreeing, Cyrilla,
I'm just worried about Helen (I understand she prefers to be addressed thus) confusing the idea of the modes sounding major or minor (presumably on the basis of their III) with the standard major and minor modes we have these days.
I see what you mean about chromatic alteration to modal note but they can so easily slip into different modes. I mentioned an example and perhaps I shouldn't!
If Helen's question asks her to "name and define the modes of the major scale," we might just add confusion out of hand. Perhaps if there's more research we can elaborate later.
A good point to mention that the modes can be established on the degrees of an Ionian in any major key.
I get a horrid feeling that contemporary teaching is trying to produce "modes for dummies" when really it's a big subject.
Nov 8 2004, 08:46 AM
I decided to scrap this message as it may obfuscate the issue at hand.
Well. I ain't drunk but I don't know where I dragged that one from!)
Nov 8 2004, 12:07 PM
Somehow I just had a feeling you would shoot me down in flames, Rhapsodin...
Nov 8 2004, 10:00 PM
Oh, no, Cyrilla. What can I say? Sincerest apologies as it was not meant to be that. I was worried about Helen / Subatomic Star getting the modes confused with standard major/minor modes.
I'll go in and amend the message right now. I can see how it appears a bit overdone.
Genuinely sorry...please forgive.
Nov 10 2004, 06:45 PM
's OK...I just thought maybe I was going to have to speak to my teachers from the Liszt Academy and the Kodaly Institute and tell them they'd taught me all wrong...
Nov 10 2004, 06:54 PM
Oops - just re-read what I wrote and one thing IS wrong - the Phrygian mode is a minor mode in character - but it has a flattened 2nd, not 7th - sorry!
Nov 11 2004, 09:47 AM
Fine, except just one thing I'm unclear about re:your viewpoint, the idea of major and minor modes. I can't see this.
There is a major mode and a minor one - the ionian and basically the aeolian, but that's it. These days they're known as Major and Minor modes respectively. Not the Phrygian or any others are major or minor in any sense. I mean, the Phrygian IS...the Phrygian. etc etc.
It's possibly to make the Phrygian sound like the minor more (aeolian) by using it in its hypophrygian form and, sure, as a composer you could use it how you like. (The aeolian came a bit later - around 1500 - until then you'd have to use the hypo- )
If you mean they sound sort of minor/major-ish by virtue of the interval between I and III because of the maj or min 3rd, I see where you're coming from but the Phrygian, for example, starts off (as a scale) with a semitone between I and II. In fact its very quality, like the Locrian is bestowed in this interval giving it that peculiar thrill, a different emotional 'feel' from a minor scale.
As I see it, trying to categorise the modes into maj and min sounding does them no justice. Sure, the dorian does sound a bit minorish and fine with that one.
Perhaps we're just talking around differences in the way we came to "modes" - possibly itself an interesting discussion. I arrived by way of 16C polyphony where you find good modal harmony and movement between the modes - not a lot of it but it's there.
Be pleased to hear your further comments...
Nov 11 2004, 03:34 PM
|QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Nov 11 2004, 04:47 AM)|
|There is a major mode and a minor one - the ionian and basically the aeolian, but that's it. |
The division of modes into major (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian) and minor (Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian, Locrian) seems to be pretty standard...
Nov 11 2004, 07:31 PM
I erased some of an earlier post and have no intention to repeat it here. Yes, this major / minor mode stuff seems to be becoming a conventional viewpoint. (I won't say wisdom).
People insist on grouping and tabulating any and everything - modes are not inviolate. So I tend to regard it as repackaging for resale to a new audience who have come to see music as major or minor (and, as Cyrilla says, based on the white-note cop-out). . . .A couple months ago my (rock) guitar-playing friend told me he was eager for a forthcoming lesson because his teacher was going to teach him "all about the modes". Summed it up really - a quest for a different sound.
I see the attraction - you sound a triad based on the final of the Phrygian and it sounds minor. I don't think it's a productive way to look at modes no matter how many websites you throw up but if it helps people to find new possibilities, especially compositionally, I'll bow gracefully and leave the stage on that basis!
It would suppose a redefinition of terms...because the tendency must be to look on all modes as variants of the Ionian and Aeolian (or HypoPhrygian) - with chromatic(???) alterations - like the Phrygian is a minor (Aeolian) with a flattened II; the Lydian is an Ionian/major with a raised IV.
But as you may see (hopefully), speak to me and most counterpoint students in this way and it won't add extra sense.
Main thing is, Helen's question appears to have been answered.
Nov 12 2004, 12:36 AM
All these modes are no Phrygian use to me
Nov 12 2004, 09:02 AM
|QUOTE (zoda @ Nov 12 2004, 12:36 AM)|
| All these modes are no Phrygian use to me |
Buy one get one free!!!
Nov 14 2004, 10:01 PM
Um... something occured to me in rehersals today. If an Ionian mode is C to C, Isn't that the same as a C major scale??
Nov 14 2004, 10:06 PM
You got it, Helen.
And A to A on the white notes is the aeolian and the BASIS of the minor scale these days.
Nov 14 2004, 10:18 PM
Ohhhh *it all suddenly makes sense...*
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