I have already posted about this but it hasn't come through. Sorry if this is a duplicate.
My 13 year old son has just passed his Grade 5 Cornet with 113.
He would like to try another instrument. A euphonium or a trombone look top choices. It would still be very useful if he could play the cornet at school, he walks to school, and the trombone at Junior band.
How practical is this as an idea?
Dora

Well first where is he having lessons or teaching himself? As if this is at school obviously this is going to clash. (However I can manage to carry a cornet and sax alright).

I am assuming from what you said that he doesn't already know what he wants to play; trombone or euphonium; if so would he be able to play a new instrument straight away with others that already play the instrument? (particually for trombone as he won't know the slide positions.
On the other hand my dad learnt the tuba and trombone just from going to a school band and without any lessons, so it does depend on what your son is capable of doing.

I agree with not play the instruments in the same band/group as this would cause confusion never knowing which instrument you are playing (from my experience this is). Also just an opinion of mine but the tenor horn does have a lovely tone!

He has lessons from a teacher who comes to the house who is dead set against him learning two brass instruments. I spoke to her after I posted the above.
He plays his cornet in the training band and the music service band at school as well as in the junior section of a local brass band.
He doesn't know what he wants to play. He really fancies a trombone but understand that he will get on faster with the euphonium.
There are other trombone players in the junior section of the local brass band and his teacher is a trombone specialist.
I wouldn't say that my son has any great musical talent. He will just plug away at it and I think he will get far enough to enjoy music as a hobby as an adult. He does play the piano too.
Dora

So would I be. To play a brass instrument well, you do enough practice for the lips to get used to a particular mouthpiece. Even if you change the mouthpiece on the same instrument it takes some weeks to get well played in on the new one. Trombone and euphonium mouthpieces are of a similar size, and it would be possible to play both instruments with the same mouthpiece, or at least the same rim, but the cornet mouthpiece is much smaller than these. There are multi-instrumentalists in jazz who play more than one brass instruments but

1) They are professional musicians who play and practice a lot;
2) The jazz scene tolerates a range of tone quality, whereas brass and wind bands need a more uniform sound, to get a blend;
3) Even these players don't play either brass instrument as well as if they didn't play the other one.

I recommend that he choose a second instrument from a different family. That way, he will be able to play a larger range of music.

I don't really know much about brass, but I believe people often progress from a cornet to a trumpet. (People here will soon put me right if this is incorrect!) Would he like to try that? I think trumpet is a more versatile instrument, as you can use it for orchestral and jazz works as well as band music.

He is dead set against the trumpet which is a great shame for all the reasons you give.
Dora


Thank you very much for this. He is committed to playing in a brass band. I'd like him to do other things too but he loves brass bands so that is obviously important.
He plays the piano as well as the cornet and having tried the violin it is very clear that it is not possible for him to learn 3 instruments at the same time. He reads a book a day too. My daughter plays three instruments and we find it hard to fit it all in for her.
But it sounds like switching to the euphonium now could open up the door to a trombone later on if he still wants to try that.
We would also have to consider how to get a euphonium to and from school but I will find a solution to that.
You've really made it clear for me, thank you.
Dora

The euphonium (also known as "tenor tuba" when, as occasionally happens, it is allowed to join the symphony orchestra) is the largest bore instrument of its length in the brass band, the others being tenor trombone and baritone horn (known as tenor horn in the US). Consequently, it needs a lot of air and energy. Its parts are often busy, even virtuosic, possibly the second busiest in the brass band after the solo cornets. Good euphonium players are usually enthusiasts (even monomaniacs) for their instrument.

Brass band parts are written in treble clef to sound a major ninth lower than written, so cornet fingerings carry over unchanged. Orchestral parts are written in bass clef and sound as written.

Thank you for this. I will talk to my son about everything you have said. This is all new to me, I'm a mathematician and teach finance!!! But I know enough about music to understand what you are saying. I'm not sure how hard it would be for my son to play from the bass clef without the transposition. He might not be tempted to try it.
I do now understand a conversation our conductor had with a trombone player about which score he needed and whether he read bass clef or treble clef.
Dora

He's not likely to get the opportunity to play in a orchestra soon. The only works I can think of at present (there must be some others) are "The Planets" (big solo in "Mars") and "Pictures at an Exhibition", if the bass tuba player doesn't fancy the solo in the Oxcart movement. In the brass band, he will be playing from treble clef, cornet fingering will work, but he has to get used to the notes coming out an octave lower.

Just a point, don't give up on trombone completely because if he really sets himself down to learn it he could do it however the euphonium is the easier option and he could go onto the trombone at a later stage...From my own experience I was told that I being a brass player wouldn't be able to play the saxophone and here I am playing a saxophone solo in a concert Also the trombone is the same buzzing technique as the cornet so it's really the notes and how they will sound different that will be the problem. Also if he plays the cornet he will already know a bit of bass clef for some pieces and to do grade 6 on the cornet he needs to learn grade 5 theory so that would help with the transposing.

I wouldn't say learning another brass instrument when you are grade 5 on your first will be much of a problem, I don't see why the teachers unhappy about it as i've been told playing two or more brass instruments strengthens your tonality and quality of the sound coming out of the instrument you are playing.




A trumpet is almost like a cornet, just the bell's a bit longer and has a slightly different tone, so wouldn't really be much of a different instrument. However if I could afford a trumpet i'd get one Also it's funny you say people go from cornet to trumpet as i know who have done it the other way...just interesting!

I think in reality he is likely to borrow a euphonium and I will buy him a trombone. He can then work on both. It just means that he can play in his various groups straightaway with the euphonium while he figures out the trombone. I'm with you that learning another brass instrument should be fairly quick but I'm trying to to have unrealistic expectations. His teacher can do both with him so that isn't a problem.
Thanks
Dora

. Also if he plays the cornet he will already know a bit of bass clef for some pieces and to do grade 6 on the cornet he needs to learn grade 5 theory so that would help with the transposing.


sorry, but this is simply not true r.e bass clef for cornet. At no time in my 25+ yeard of playing have I ever found atrumpet/cornet piece that means I need to read bass clef, let alone at G5 level.

I agree with this! I turn up to my concert band every week with 5 different instruments never sure which i'll play! Usually I'll sit there with all of them out depending on what each piece calls for This can be highly annoying but at the same time it keeps things fresh!

I can't be bothered to quote things so I'll just make a general reply to most things that have been said.

I'd tend to agree with your son's teacher, Dora. Your son is only grade 5 so he still was quite a long way to go until he is secure in his technique and his embouchure is 'fully' developed.. Learning another brass instrument would only slow this development and possibly prevent him from being a really good cornet player. Learning two at once would rather be a 'two steps forward, one step back' situation with the risk of damaging the cornet tone on the way. I know quite a few brass teachers who play a whole range of brass instruments from trumpet to tuba to french horn, however, all of these first learned their instrument and became a really good standard on that before venturing to the other brass instruments.

Though I will say that he is lucky if he decides to learn a lower brass instrument as from the people who I know it is evident that it is much easier for a trumpet/cornet player to play on a larger mouthpiece than it is for a trombone/euphonium player to play on a much smaller mouthpiece.

Don't be mistaken, although the trombone and euphonium are 'similar' and can be played with the same mouthpiece (I use the same mouthpiece on both trombone and euphonium) they are both different beasts, and both require a different technique! Obviously one has a slide and the other a valves there are other differences. Tonguing technique for one is different; if you attempt to play legato on the trombone you end up with a glissando. Once again, as Kenm said, the euphonium requires a lot of air and so you have to get used to this also.

If he does decide to learn another brass instrument, then perhaps hold back on the trombone for a little while so he can get used to the euphonium first. Then again, as I type this I'm thinking it'd be best to forget about the euphonium for now and just go straight for the trombone! Although the initial progress will be slow due to the slide I feel that it'd be much more benefitial! Your son's teacher is a trombone specialist so it'd make more sense to choose this as an instrument because later on you'll notice much more of a difference having a specialist teacher than learning the euphonium from someone who doesn't specialise in it. I found this having a french horn specialist teach me trombone - as a beginner it didn't really matter, however, as I progressed it was clear that there were holes in her knowledge of trombone technique and that i'd be much better off with a trombone specialist.

What would the purpose be of your son taking up the trombone/euphonium? If it's to provide more musical oppurtunities then the trombone is the one to choose, as others have said; there isn't much room for the euphonium in an orchestra. Though, as Kenm suggested, looking at another family could be benefitial as it would open up playing oppurtunities in Orchestras, Concert Bands and Jazz bands - dependant on which instrument he chooses of course. It's a shame that he didn't like the violin as there are always playing oppurtinities for this in a lot of amateur orchestras - especially university orchestras where the strings often go unauditioned.

You say that he will be able to play in his various groups on the euphonium straight away, but surely he will already be playing the cornet in these?

Sorry if the post is a bit jumbled - I'm tired

Why doesn't he try something lovely like the flugelhorn
I suppose I am a little biased with it being my instrument, but the technique isn't that much different to that of playing the cornet, yet it makes such a different sound!

I wouldn't personally play a trombone/euph with a cornet, as his lips wouldn't know whether they were coming or going!

Having said that, a friend of mine plays trumpet and trombone both to excellent levels.. so I guess there are always exceptions to the rule!

As someone else said, it's all about what your son is capable of. If he can do it, then great! It's just not something that I would recommend.

Thank you very much for all the comments. They are much appreciated.
Jamie finally got to try a trombone last night and loved it and I have found someone who is very kindly willing to lend him a trombone.
His teacher is willing to teach him the trombone although thinks it is a mistake.
I just want Jamie to play the instrument he wants to play.
He does understand that he can't play the cornet and the trombone.
I think the only decision left probably is whether to withdraw from all his groups until he has some mastery of a trombone or whether to get him a euphonium to play for the time being until he is good enough on the trombone.
Allowing it is almost May I think if he really put his back into it he might be able to play well enough to rejoin his groups in September so that might be the way to go.
As well as his own teacher I know two young men who are about to go to Birmingham Conservatoire to study trombone, I'm just lucky, and at least one of them is likely to be happy to earn some money over the summer so I can get him extra help.
I will post an update when something happens but in the meantime I am very grateful for all the support I've had here.
Thanks everyone
Dora

Learning two similar but not identical instruments at once will delay his mastery of either of them. He won't be able to play euphonium parts immediately in his groups; he needs to adjust his embouchure to the larger mouthpiece and his lungs to the greater demand for air. I would withdraw him from the the groups and keep him with trombone (slightly less demand for air) until he is secure on that. The addition of euphonium will be much easier then.

The trombone is possibly the best instrument for someone with interests in many different sorts of music: Renaissance canzonas; classical church music, (Beethoven) symphonies and large-scale orchestral music up to the present day; jazz, both small group and big band; wind band; brass band; small scale brass chamber music (Poulenc trio, many quartets and quintets).

I think you are right and this is what we will do. He has to be about Grade 2 standard to play in his groups and I'm confident we can get there sooner rather than later.
Thank you so much for all your help. it has been very useful.
Dora

The really great thing about brass instruments is that it is relatively easy to play new ones if you've learnt one, especially within the brass band world.

It is very common to move around on instruments within brass bands, even while still learning. Of course, progress will slow for a while, but it won't take long to get back up to standard on a different brass instrument. A young girl in one of the brass bands I play in played the cornet for a few years and was stuck at around the Grade 4 standard - she couldn't cope with the range and stamina required, so she moved onto euphonium and a year later she's taking her Grade 6. The basic technique and fingerings are exactly the same, it's just a matter of adjusting to a larger mouthpiece etc. I'm not sure the change would have been so successful if she had carried on playing the cornet though.

As other posters have said, many brass players play the whole range of instruments. Glynn Williams (excellent euphonium player) did a marvellous performance at Brass In Concert a few years playing everything from soprano cornet to a kitchen sink. And most music service brass teachers are expected to teach all members of the brass family.

Someone else mentioned that changing mouthpieces can be a big deal. Trumpeters often use several different mouthpieces depending on the type of playing they are going to do. I use two - one for big band and one for orchestral playing. Not a problem switching between the two but it effects my tone so I have to choose the right one. I also play B flat cornet in one brass band and E flat soprano cornet in another brass band. It isn't a problem for me, but I'm not sure I'd have wanted to switch around and change instruments so much while I was still learning.

Euphonium players who go to music colleges are usually expected to gain some mastery of the trombone in second study lessons, to make them more versatile and employable as musicians.

I think it's a great idea for your son to have a go on another brass instrument, if that's what he wants. There are millions of cornet players but it's often quite hard to find good trombone or euphonium players. However, I doubt he'll be able to continue to be both a cornet player and a trombone player at the same time. If he were a pupil of mine, I'd let him have a go on trombone / euphonium - see how he likes it and then make a decision about making the switch properly.

Thank you for this.
I have managed to borrow a trombone from a very kind colleague and Jamie has had the chance to play it tonight. he's having no problem getting a strong note out of it and most importantly he is thrilled. I'm putting the cornet away for a month and he can focus on the trombone. Then he can decide what he wants to do.
I'm sure it will be the trombone. He looked so happy with it.
Thank you everyone.
Dora

sorry I meant piano my mistake!
thanks for correcting me...no I have never had to play a cornet piece in bass clef

I managed to borrow a trombone yesterday. It belongs to a colleague and is in excellent working order. Not only can Jamie get the B flat note that he teacher wanted but he is playing scales with some speed. Not sure how he did that to begin with because he hadn't got a slide chart but I found one on line and he is making a good fist of it.
He is thrilled.
Thank you all for the encouragement, information and support.
I doubt we will go the euphonium route. I think he has found his instrument.
I will post progress here.
Thank you
Dora

The slide positions have a one-to-one correspondence with the fingerings of the valved instruments, i.e. the fingerings lengthen the instrument by approximately the same amount as the slide:

Position Fingering
1 ------ 0
2 ------ 2
3 ------ 1
4 ------ 12 or 3
5 ------ 23
6 ------ 13
7 ------ 123

I expect he worked that out and is using his cornet fingerings to help.