Hi guys,

Having just started piano lessons I've discovered that I can immediately start looking at grade 3 pieces. Mostly due to 20 years of playing with keyboards, but scales are a different matter!!!!

We're starting with the early scales. I can do them with either hand and I can do the contraty motion thingy as you're still doing the same thing with both hands.

BUT..... playing any scales with 2 hands an octave apart. How do you do that?!!!
I can't cope with counting different numbers for both hands (LH 1,2,3,4,5, RH 1,2,3,1,2,etc)

Is this one of those things that just happens? Seems impossible at the moment. Is it that I have to get past the counting thing?

Any advice?

Putting scales together is quite a tricky one and takes a bit of time. This is what I do with my students - break the scale down into small fragments. Perhaps best to start with a scale with black notes in, rather than C major - gives you a few more clues to fingering I think, so starting with D major, for instance -

Go up and down to G and back, crossing your R thumb under to play G - this takes care of the first 'cross-over' point. Once you are comfortable with this, go on up to A, crossing L 3rd finger over. Carry on in this way, adding on chunks that take in each of the cross-overs (places where a finger or thumb crosses under/over).

Remember that each octave has the same fingering - so the tonic is a check point. Look for places where both hands do the same thing - these vary from scale to scale, but there is usually some sort of pattern that you can latch onto. Try pausing on the tonic each time to re-group.

The first few hands-together scales are the worst - it gets easier!

Good Luck

Yes, agreed, take it slowly and step by step. Lots of good advice so far.

I get my students to play "in minims" when they first start putting hands together.

The crunch point is often coming down, in particular that LH fourth finger (eg in C major that's the D almost halfway down). The landmark 'middle keynote ' where thumbs play together is a useful one - sometimes helps prevent left thumb going under one note too soon (ie instead of finger 4) which is quite a common slip.

From a learner's perspective, it does suddenly happen. You will find it easier to "know" the pattern on the piano, and then concentrate on which finger to put where. In no time you wil be flying up and down the scales.

Thanks for the ideas.

Need to break it down a bit I think!

I note the points where the thumbs both hit together, this makes it a lot easier, I find I'm having to do this what with taking formal lessons for the first time in several years and being put forward to do grades so I sympathise with your plight

I found that I just had to go really really slowly, and really repetitively in small portions until I could manage a whole octave up and down without stopping/going wrong/hitting total frustration! I agree with Solari too, to begin with finding the points where your thumbs play together is useful as you can track whether your other fingers were in the right place by whether your thumbs get to the right place! (I found it very useful when I had some problems with putting my forth fingers in at the right places!)
I also find sometimes starting by coming down the octave and then up (inverting the scale I suppose?) that because I find coming down harder, I'd really concentrate and then going back up would "just happen" which was a good confidence boost!
Good luck!

Scales - hands together.

Start slow and deliberate.

As slow as you have to go to do it right.

Even if it seems absurdly slow.

Even if it takes four or five seconds per step (or more).

Maybe try D major?
In the right hand, you just go 1 2 3 (black note) 1 2 3 4 (black note) 1 2 3 (black note!) 1 2 3 4 5 (top d)

So you always put your thumb under when you touch a black note - you wont need to think about it as much.
Then in the left, your 2nd finger will always land on a G.
Hopefully that might help, as you dont need to pay as much attention to the right hand, and can focus on the left.

I'm using an exercise from Dozen a Day book 2 to teach one of my pupils hands together scales for grade 2. I've also written out the exercise in reverse to practise the descending portion of the scale. I think it's group 4 exercise 11, although I'm too lazy to go and check that just now........ It certainly seems to be working. I'll have to try it with a few more pupils (not that I have many at that stage now - at one time I would have had several!!) before I can tell whether or not it's a failsafe solution.........

I think this is infinitely more productive than playing the whole thing perfectly hands seperately and then expecting to just be able to do it hands together. Play three notes hands together till secure. Up and down. The add another note (with all the right fingers) and only add another when it's all safe and sound to date. And so on. Till you've got all the way up - by that stage, theoretically, if you've been practising coming down as well with each additional note, you should be able to whizz up and down quite easily.

Or you could just forget the whole process and just allocate the time to pieces of music...

Thanks for all the useful tips.

Yesterday I managed to go all the way up and down 2 octaves with the right notes.

I think the way up took me about 20 seconds and probably twice as long on the way down.

But hey, it's a start!!! At least I now beleive it's possible!

You sure sound talented Lizzy!
Scales, I know how you feel! Why don't you try practicing them really slowly together and then build up on the speed?

I hope this helped! :]

The ease and naturalness of this raises a principle. If RH going up likes to play thumb after a black key, there's a logic to left hand going down doing the same because of the hand symmetry, yet standard D major descending doesn't do this whereas standard b melodic minor does. (by standard I mean what my scales manual says and the few people I've discussed it with).
I suppose the 'standard' fingering prioritises use of the C-major pattern.
However 'a little learning is a dangerous thing' and I suggest anyone reading this 'obeys'/discusses with their teacher as I do not have the experience to make a recommendation. I read about this in Penelope Roskell's The Art Of Piano Fingering and have read a couple of magazine articles on the subject. I found it really interesting as you can probably tell.

I just ordered this out of curiousity... from what you've said it's a good read Is this going to upset my teacher? I guess I'll discuss it with her before following any advice in the book