I sit in on my daughter's flute lessons. She's 9 and I find her completely infuriating. She doesn't speak, even when asked quite a simple question. She is so lacking in confidence that she won't answer unless she is at least 100% sure she is right. She's quite musical (distinction at grade 2 after two terms of playing flute and grade 4 on piano) She goes to a wind band led by her teacher and he says she is a different child there. The other annoying thing is she will play in her lessons like she has done no practice all week. The following day I decide to supervise her practice so that she doesn't sound quite so dreadful at the next lesson and she will play everything perfectly.

Why is she so nervous in her lessons? She can't have been that nervous in her exam to get such a good mark. Does anyone have any suggestions?

I did wonder if it's because I'm there, but the piano teacher can't get a word out of her either and I'm not in the room.

This is probably too obvious for you not to have already thought of, but have you sat her down and asked her why she's so quiet in her lessons? (I'm sure you could find an appropriate way to put this so it doesn't sound accusatory as I think it's important not to show annoyance if her taciturnity dervices from a lack of confidence.)

You say she's "a different child" in windband. Would it help, perhaps, if she were to share her lesson with another pupil?

Finally, would it be worth sitting in for a few of her piano lessons, and not sitting in for some flute lessons and asking for feedback from the teacher?

Sorry if you've tried all these suggestions already!

Um, Andante - I assume you're being serious here although it's not your usual style of post.

It you were a 9-year-old flute learner and your Mam was an outstanding flautist, would you be comfortable having her in lessons with you? I would have run a mile and refused to play if it was me! I know some children are happy with this kind of thing, but I'm not sure (from what I've seen of you on here) that you would have been - and it sounds from your description as if your daughter is perhaps taking after you re things like confidence. How many years has it taken you to pluck up the nerve to do your LRSM eventhough you've been good enough to for ages?

I *think* you're doing what I did when I first saw this thread, Flossie! You're thinking of andante-in-c!

How much is she aware of your feelings on the subject? Forgive me, but the tone of your post suggests you are fairly frustrated about it all - and I would suspect that if I were a recipient of that degree of upset from another person, even as an established adult, I'd feel I wanted to clam up too. If she is practising all week and you feel her playing in lessons doesn't reflect how she's working, then making a big deal of it and changing how things happen at home would then also make her feel pressurised, at a guess - there is no shame in making a mistake in a lesson, teachers expect them, and a good teacher can tell the difference between the habitual mistake and the slip of the moment, and help to guide a pupil round gremlins (it's what a teacher is there for!).
The fact is, she is happy in the wind band situation - maybe because there is company of her peers, and because the focus isn't so closely on her playing? By all means try to see how things go if you are not sitting in on the flute lesson: and as far as the piano lesson goes, that could as easily be an interpersonal thing. I suspect trying to find out everything at once will just make your daughter feel too much under a spotlight, and you might need to take each scenario in turn.

And yes, I too am assuming this is not the well-established forum member, andante-in-c...

Is it only in music lessons or in other situations too? My daughter (now nine) went for about four years when she wouldn't answer when adults asked her a question but it took us a long time to realise as she was such a chatty child at home and in the playground.

If you want to know more send me a PM.

Maybe she's like my eldest, and loves flute in a group but doesn't like solos.
I don't sit in on my daughters' lessons, I think they will be better without me there.
Bev

Eee. Yes I was - hadn't noticed that the end of her username was missing (and didn't realise that we had two andante's on here). Sorry everyone.

I thought it was a bit of a strange post for Andante to have made!

Edit: I'm not saying that the post itself is 'strange' - just that it seemed that way when I thought it was from andante-in-c (who is a very well regarded flautist and an active forum member).

It sounds as though you are getting very frustrated with your daughter - the words 'infuriating' and 'annoying' cropped up in your post...

I can't help but feel your presence in the lessons isn't helping - perhaps you need to absent yourself for more than just one or two lessons, and see how things develop. As you say, your daughter clearly has the ability to do well, and perhaps things would flow more easily if she was left to her own devices with the teacher.

Be honest with yourself - are there other issues going on between you and your daughter that are spilling over into flute lessons? It sounds as though your daughter is confident in other situations eg wind band and exams. Sorry to throw it back on you, and I could be completely wrong, but that is my first reaction.

On the other hand, your daughter is doing well despite the lack of two-way communication in lessons, so things are obviously sinking in - perhaps it isn't worth getting too worried about?

This certainly sounds like nerves. I used to have flute lessons some years ago. As a (then) 26 year old, I was so nervous each week that I sounded so bad/made so little sound that the teacher assumed I hadn't practised. The more he got cross with me, the more nervous I got, until we got into a vicious circle and I gave up! You certainly don't want to go there.

Like others have said I'd be inclined to keep out of the lessons for a while. My daughter is quite a lot older than yours (12) but is still inclined to expect me to answer on her behalf when other adults ask her questions. It is a bit annoying, I suppose, but she'll grow out of it and, perhaps, will do so quicker if I keep a low profile!

Thanks for all your advice.

She has always been really quiet with adults. Even ones she has known all her life have said to me that she is as quiet as a mouse if they are in the room, but as soon as they walk out they hear her chatting away. She makes friends really easily with children. She has only been going to band for a short while (maybe four or five sessions at fortnightly intervals) and knows none of the other children from anywhere else.

I agreed to sit in the flute lessons as I knew she would be really quiet (silent) if I wasn't there. The teacher asked me if I would like to sit in and I wondered if he preferred Mum to be present with new little girls.

I hadn't really considered a joint lesson. She had a few joint ones at school, but they weren't a sucess (she picked up a lot of bad habits which even as a non flute player I could see were wrong eg flute pointing downwards not horizontal! that the teacher seemed not to bother about.

I have tried rewarding her for the number of times she speaks in a lesson. Telling her it's the number of things she says, not whether they are right or wrong that matters. Including saying hello and goodbye in the word count we got up four or five!!

She's the same with everything, quite good at it but very hard on herself. About her gym she actually said last week " What's the point of being good at everything else if I can't even do one....(whatever it was)"

I can empathise with your frustration.

It sounds as if perhaps your daughter is maybe feeling the pressure of playing in front of another adult (teacher/parent). It might just be a phase that she's going through. It can be a tricky age for them (9-12). My usually chatty daughter can be at times quite reticent when she's tired, or unhappy about something, or when she's feeling unsure about herself. I find that the more I get frustrated about something, the more she clams up. So, I've leant from my own experience that sometimes its better to give such things time.

Sometimes a parent's presence can be quite unnerving too especially as our kids are most worried about our approval. All children go through a lack of self-belief and I think that all they need at such moments is constant re-inforcement of our love for them. Perhaps let her take responsibility for her practice and music for a while (easier said than done), and praising her for the progress that she makes in practice can make a difference. Its not easy being a parent.

PS I'm NOT the other andante. I chose the name because anything I did play would definitely be at a walking pace.

If she's the sort of person who tends to be hard on herself, then she will also react with stress to things she perceives as pressure - and even rewards for behaviours can seem that way to some sensitive kids. I'd certainly take up kerioboe's offer of pm communication if I were you - I'm sure some very sound advice and support could come from that quarter. A relative of mine has daughters who displayed fairly clingy behaviour at your daughter's age - she let them do so, channelling it where she could, but otherwise tolerating it, and in time both have grown out of it and become charming, outgoing and well-adjusted, it just took a little time .

Now then...who owns the problems?

You are infuriated - how could you avoid this? Maybe you could decide to not put yourself in the situation? Your daughter is probably big enough to go to lessons on her own!

Your daughter doesn't talk in lessons. But she IS learning. So does she have a problem with not talking? She talks in other situations right?

Good luck!

My youngest wouldn't speak freely until she was about age 4. She was the same with adults and other children. It got better when she went to nursery but didn't totally disappear for another few months. I can understand your frustration. It was a choice she made at that time, no amount of persuasion would have changed anything. I'm afraid I took the cruel to be kind approach. Luckily she wasn't damaged by it in anyway and is now a happy, outgoing, friendly girl. That's not to say she isn't quieter than her sister but that's just how she is.

I think I'd just leave you daughter to it. So long as your daughter pays attention in her lessons, practices and makes progress.

We have the same issue here. Beth is pretty quiet with me but says nothing in music lessons. We now know that she has a significant language impairment.
Always worth keeping in mind if you are really concerned.
For Beth it is far easier just to do what is wanted than to enter into discussion about it.
Dora

Thanks all.

Anacrusis. Clingy she definitely is not. My three have always been happy to be left anywhere, which could make you feel not wanted, but they look pleased enough when you go go back for them.

Dora. I don't think it is a speech / language problem, she's quite able to explain things normally, and comes out with enormously long words when not expected!

I think it's a fear of failure and being hard on herself and she's been like it for ages. Sometimes she'll be practising the piano and I can hear her struggling with something and I go in to say leave it for today, and she's sat there with tears running down her face saying " I'm not getting up until I can do it". She's so hard on herself I just wish I could help.

I'm sorry, you mistook me: I was pointing out that there was a behaviour which was not considered desirable in the children, and which sorted itself out without intervention, given time - not an exact parallel, which is why I also said better to talk to kerioboe .
And if your daughter fears failure, and is hard on herself, then perhaps not drawing attention to it will also be beneficial to her? I don't mean ignoring it as such, but certainly not making a big deal of it, just quietly giving positive feedback when the "desired" behaviour happens. Sometimes kids will pick up on vibes in unexpected ways, and read the subtext of our concerns more clearly than we meant that they should. Above all the initial comments underlining your frustration with the situation are suggestive that you may be giving away more than you intended...

I find the lessons frustrating as she isn't doing herself justice and I sometimes think the teacher could be more positive, rather than glossing over the good bits and concentrating on where she needs to improve. He has the patience of a saint and is lovely, but I wonder whether he is really at her 9 year old level sometimes.

Thank you all for your help, and I have pmed kerioboe ( I think, perhaps I didn't do it right, I'm new to all this ) (Well I thought I had, but it seems to have disappeared)

Much better lesson this week!! She even explained something clearly and accurately. I thought she was going to cry when the teacher laughed at one of her attempts at a bar. (I think he was trying to make light of it and she took it the wrong way) On the whole much better.

Glad things went better this week! Does it help to reassure your daughter that sooner or later, faster or slower, we generally do achieve the things that we really want to achieve, and that tripping up early on has nothing to do with the level she will finally achieve?

Sent PMs aren't automatically saved.

This may help, it's something my daughter's Piano Teacher tells her. That as a piece starts to get better and you begin to play it more musically there's more chance it will go wrong. The new mistakes are often easier to put right after a little attention. He says it happens a lot when pieces are speeded up.

It's presented as it's nothing to worry about.

hi,

I have two daughters and a little boy. My youngest two are both very socially out going and confident, but the eldest never has been, although she has lots of friends and is very confident in exam situations. I also began to get frustrated with her (she's nearly 8), but realised that by picking her up on not speaking to adults when she is spoken to, shrugging and looking at the floor etc.. I was making a shy child even more self conscious.
I spoke to an ex-collegue of mine, who is a speech and drama teacher, and she has been going to see her for 20 mins a week since January. The difference is amazing! I went to a class assembly last week at her school, and although she is still by no means the most confident sitting up on the stage, she delivered her couple of lines beautifully, with a clear voice, and looking directly at the audience. She has also begun speaking to her friends mums, politely answering them when they speak to her etc. She is really keen to do an exam, and so is doing this in June. It involves reciting a poem, and also having a conversation with the examiner. Because she 'likes' exams, I think the experience of having to talk to another adult in this situation when she is fully prepared will boost her even more.
I can honestly say that whilst it isn't cheap (on the same level as instrumental lessons) in terms of helping her get the most from her experiences and her future happiness and success it is absolutely worth every penny and the best thing I ever did for her. She is never going to be an extrovert like her siblings, but is beginning to be confident in her own way.
Just thought it might be an idea for your daughter as she sounds like she might be a similar personality.
Kris

I sat in on my daughter's out-of-school private flute lessons when she was in primary school but only for the first few. I would quietly read a book and made no input. I'm not musical but I know enough to tell from her practising whether or not she's doing well.
By the time she was 8 she was going on her own to lessons in walking distance. Then she had a new teacher who lived far enough away to drive there. I sat in for a couple, again reading a book, just to get a flavour of the teacher's style then I took to sitting in the car reading or listening to the radio. I did the same for piano, string and theory lessons. These often lengthy car journeys gave us an opportunity to chat and listen to music together.
She definitely formed a better relationship with teachers when there was just her and the teacher though I often dropped in at the beginning or end just to keep tabs on what music I needed to order for her or what arrangements there were for an exam etc.
These days she makes her own way to lessons by train and passed grade 8 flute with distinction last year aged 16. Now pupils come to her and their parents do as I did.
My advice - stay well out of it unless you're needed to arrange emergency repairs to instruments, rustle up an accompanist, pay the bills, buy music scores at a couple of days notice, race round the countryside ferrying her to orchestral rehearsals, attend concerts, provide uncreased concert dress ........

Ah! now that's interesting. I did wonder a bit about the teacher (not in any kind of worrying way). Having experienced several teachers of my own, I found one of them profoundly depressing because he rarely praised and always "nit-picked" his way through a piece. (I'm sure I probably needed it, but it was the way it was done.)

It sounds to me as though your daughter is a perfectionist, and is therefore quite hard on herself. Teacher needs to praise a bit more, and frankly to bring himself down to the level of a 9 year old girl. I have a particularly quiet pupil of about the same age, and she is rather similar, and is quite difficult to teach in some ways because you don't get any feedback. But it's just shyness, she's starting to open up a bit, and even makes her own suggestions now (this after 2 years of teaching ).

I agree with others who said not to sit in on lessons because then she will have to respond to questions herself. Also it might be worth mentioning to teacher that she was so pleased that he'd praised whatever it was in the lesson - over-egg it a bit, so that he gets the message that "praise is good". Maybe he's just a bit intense in a one-to-one situation.

You don't have to be 9 to need a bit more encouragement.

I have a boss who when filling in appraisal reports describes everything that has gone really well as 'fine' then reports on everything negative in minute detail. Obviously you need to know where things need to be improved but it is hard to maintain motivation when you only hear the bad things. Perfectionists of any age are quite good at being hard on themselves - they often need help giving themselves credit for the good bits.

Personally, I would absolutely hate it if my parents were in my lesson with me. I wouldn't say so, but I would honestly hate it. I don't know why.

I'm 14 now, and wouldn't like it.

When I was 6 and I started piano lessons I wouldn't like it.
When I was 9 and started flute lessons I wouldn't have liked it.
When I was 12 and did singing lessons I wouldn't have liked it.
And when I restarted flute and piano a year ago, and a few months ago I wouldn't have liked it.

It's like parents evening at school, it's like a collision of your parents impression of you, and your teachers impression of you. I'm quite different with music teachers, and just teachers in general.

I don't know, it would just embarrass me. That might just be because of my parents though, and what they're like. They tease and joke with me a lot, and would laugh at the shy, hardworking, polite me

That's very very true!! I'm an absolute perfectionist, and, when I was working for grade 6 singing, my teacher would usually only comment on the bad things that needed improving and often neglected to notice the things I had improved on from the previous week or things I had done well. I then actually though at one point that I didn't want to do singing exams anymore, as I clearly wasn't good enough. But then my result came through and I had got a distinction!

And clearly praise does make a whole world of different, as I would often come away from my singing lessons feeling rather rubbish and withdrawn, yet, after singing through the same songs for my school solo performances with my music teacher there (who's very good at praising people for even the smallest thing) I felt really happy and pleased with myself.

So I definitely think that somehow your daughter's teacher needs to perhaps give more praise, although you would have to tread carefully

Best of luck with helping your daughter

One of the things I carried away from the CT course was always to say something positive about a pupil's performance. (I'm just listening to my son's trumpet lesson in the other room so it's brought it home to me a bit. ) Sometimes it can be a real challenge and occasionally I have been defeated I'm sad to say but there's nearly always something positive you can say even if it's well done to have persisted and got to the end.

I'm sure your daughter is worth lots of praise (judging from what you have said) and that if you can delicately tweak her teacher's approach in that respect it will make all the difference. But as singerpianist says, it'll be a delicate job.

Thank you all for your suggestions.

She has an exam coming up on Friday, so last week he did sight reading with her. The notes were basically right, the rhythm was basically right, when she missed a flat she noticed and corrected it so not absolutely perfect, but I was impressed. Her reaction was tears, because she had made mistakes. I had a little talk with her on the way home about people who learn their pieces from memory, so can't sight read, and others who can just about read the notes, but the rhythm is unrecognisable and how sight reading isn't expected to be perfect.
She seemed happier with her sight reading this week.
The teacher was also more positve about some of her pieces that are not for this exam too.

We had a run through with the pianist and she heard someone else playing one of her exam pieces and I think it helped her confidence to hear someone else playing it not quite as well.

I think it all boils down to confidence, but how to solve the problem is a tricky one.

I was having a conversation with someone yesterday about false impressions and living in bubbles musically. I think out music service should be making more time for duets, trios and solos. It would give the more experienced players a chance to help the less experienced ones, without any further cost to parents. Working with others and hearing them play will make everyone more aware of their strengths and weaknesses.

Good luck for the exam! keep positive!