I've recently noticed a few posts from people who have taken up a particular instrument in order to play in an orchestra/ensemble when they are the required standard (this appears to be around grade 5).
To me this is quite a new concept as I'd always seen it as the other way round.... you begin to play in some sort of ensemble because you play an instrument.
How common is it that it happens the other way round?
Where it does how many people don't get there? Getting to grade 5 can be easily a 3-5 year project especially if it's a first instrument.
How practical is it to approach it from that direction? In the time it takes to get to that level of playing all sorts of things can change including bands no longer existing or standards raising because their existing players have moved forwards.

i imagine that taking up an instrument with the intent of playing in an orchestra is more common among people who already play another instrument--they have more experience, and a clearer idea of what they want. for someone taking up their first instruments, without much prior experience of music, it's quite possible they never even knew an amateur orchestra would be a possibility when they started.

Playing in an orchestra (or, one day, a small ensemble) was certainly my main aim when I took up the viola, having got discontented with the loneliness of the long-distance piano student. If you learned an instrument as a child, it makes sense to join an orchestra because you can already play. If you learn as an adult, you must have some reason for wanting to learn, and joining an orchestra (or playing in some other kind of ensemble) seems a good and readily understandable reason. Not any particular orchestra - just whichever orchestra is around if and when you make it to grade 5 or so. I still haven't quite given up hope of one day being good enough to do this.

I'm with River on this one. I took up violin as a second instrument because I wanted to play in an orchestra.

As a child I played clarinet and loved playing with other people. But when I went to uni I quickly discovered there were far more woodwind players than orchestra places. Other things lead to me giving up clarinet anyway.

So when I took up a new instrument the fact I knew local orchestras were after violins was a factor. I wanted to get out there an meet some new people! Wasn't the only factor obviously but that thought was there.

One of the reasons I took up the Sax last year was to get back to playing in a band of some sort. My first instrument is flute and I'd played in a concert band for a number of years which closed down. A lot of the people in the band were semi-professionals or ex- military bandsmen so the standard was high and I know I'm unlikely to get the chance to play in anything like that again as there are normally too many flutes around. There are more types of group for Sax and I'd be looking for something fairly lighthearted to have fun playing with others so would be prepared to settle for a lower level group.

I also took it up to give some variety in our monthly praise band which has several flutes & a couple of young brass players.

I started learning violin because I 'just wanted to be able to play such a beautiful instrument'
Orchestras were NOT on my mind and I took up the violin just over 2 years ago at the tender age of 37.
It was then about a year later that I started thinking of orchestras, approached my local big amateur orchestra (Croydon Symphony Orchestra) and they told me I need to be grade 5 to join them for rehearsals, grade 7 to 8 for performances.
I am now at about grade 4 and a half my teacher tells me
the closer I get the more I yearn to join them and the further away the goal seems to be!
I hope, I just hope I may be able to pass my grade 5 this winter then I may be lucky enough to join them for Christmas, even though I don't celebrate it, it would make a good Christmas present

I did indeed join an orchestra as a child because I could already play the violin. I took up the oboe as an adult because I had always wanted to play it.

I had no intention of joining anything but in September (after almost five years) decided to go and see what playing in a wind-band was like and now belong to two wind-bands and one orchestra and would happily do more

I wasn't allowed be in an orchestra until I was grade 5! I was offered the chance to play the oboe in primary school (it was between that and the flute, so I chose the better one of course... ) so I took it up and joined a group in my last year of primary school

Interesting point raised here..

When I started playing the oboe I played because I wanted to, had too almost..I quickly joined a local orchestra in 3-4 months and struggled but..it made me do things beyond my capability and stretched me and thankfully I learnt more and more but it wasnt easy...I had some disasters but kept going...A year later I got a very nice phone call from a much bigger symphonic orchestra who had been having troubles with their 1st Oboe and as no one else was available and by default you could say I got the job. I must add though not with the approval of all the members it has to be said..in truth I was (and still am) nowhere near good enough but I am a trier and I kept going, the conductor was in my corner and it seems to have paid off...I did my first concert for them in a five week rehearsal period, no train wrecks and aquitted myself fairly well...I even got invited back for the summer season so its onwards and upwards and I feel more established..I am still awful when it comes to the sight reading 1 st run through and keeping my place in the score but I keep going come ###### or high water..each week it gets better...

Now to the question...did I take up an instrument to play in an orchestra...well in a roundabout way I suppose I did...isnt that the whole point to make music with others? Did I take up a particluar instrument to make me "more attractive to an Orchestra..no, it was for me Oboe or nothing I have no prediliction to play anything else...Yes the woodwind sections are always heavily oversubscribed but if you want to play "Your instrument " you have to keep plugging and keep practicing so they cannot refuse you and you are better than anyone else who auditions...treat it serously as if it was your career, I made it my soul purpose to get better and have hopefully earned my chair and not give those who disagree with my appointment the satisfaction of "I told you so" (slight digression from original point...sorry).


I appreciate that my example is not entirely pertinent to the question but I play the Oboe because I can't imagine playing anything else, playing with others is a bonus and for me is the whole point of hours( and I mean hours) of practice ever day...I have been playing less that 2 years I have no formal qualifications and I live for it...I work my behind off to play the repetoire...this season I have Egmont (Beethoven), Spartacus Adagio and Sabre Dance (Kachaturian), Bruch Violin Concerto..to name a few..I am blessed with a fabulous conductor who's faith is unerring and it is my soul desire to make his belief in me a reality and to put one in the eye of my disenters..

I just pray they dont do Ravels "Tombeau de Couperin" or I am in serious trouble and will be well and truely found out for the pretender I truely am

Andrew

I thought you'd played the oboe before and gone back to it two years ago.

Actually it's more or less the lines I was thinking along.
I wanted to learn piano 'just because'. I never had any ideas about playing with or for others.
When I played cornet in school it was related to playing in the band but that's just how it was.

Now with clarinet as a 2nd instrument I don't think I'd have kept playing for long if I hadn't been playing in the orchestra especially as for the first 2 years I was mostly self taught.
For those who really do start with the idea of playing with others it's a pity there aren't opportunities around.
I was able to join our orchestra when I'd had the instrument for only 2 weeks (ok, 2nd instrument did give me the advantage that at least I knew what I was trying to play). It would be good if there were more 'all comers' ensembles where they neither audition, ask for a particular 'grade' or limit numbers because there are already enough of that instrument.
The trouble is, I suppose, that you do need someone who knows what they are doing to lead and guide something like this and these people are often quite busy already.

I was rather surprised to find what opportunities did exist when I began to play the oboe (though as with AUK, taking it up in the first place didn't have much to do with what or where I was going to play).

From thinking I it was going to be hard to find an orchestra or ensemble, I now have a windband I go to (when it doesn't clash with work), orchestral opportunties at the same place once I feel up to it, a local orchestra a friend (amateur bass player) gave me details of who take anyone over Grade 3 and just a couple of weeks ago my teacher asked me if I wanted to get involved in a new band starting up.

If I started doing all that I wouldn't have any time to do any practice for lessons. Mind you my sight reading might improve.

Also, let's not forget those play days and adult learner concerts organised by some of our excellent forum members.

I briefly learnt viola as a teenager and joined a youth orchestra, and discovered i loved it - right in the middle is a great place to sit.

So now, in my 40s, I've taken it up again because I want to get the experience of playing in an orchestra again. Unfortunately the only ones i can find i need to be grade 8, and as I'm really back to being a beginner again it's rather a long term project! Hopefully at some point I'll find a string quartet or something I can join.

But it's not the thought of the orchestra that's keeping me going now - it's determination that the thing will not beat me! And the fact that I love the sound the instrument can make, and I have a very beautiful viola case which i frequently stroke!

Oh yes but over twenty years ago and hardly to what could be described as any standard...I guess I just wanst ready to knuckle down back then...now its a whole different deal...

Did you play in a school orchestra then or not? (Not that a school orchestra is comparable with what you are playing in now but since Sbhoa's question was about playing with others it does seem relevant).

Oh good its not just me I love the sound and just looking at my oboe I also have very lovely hard cases bound in leather which I clean with leather cream and stroke frequently...thank heavens its not just me that does this...I come from a family which believes in looking after things especially things which are so expensive...in fact I think I may just give my cases a clean now and a bit of leather cream..they buf up lovely..

This has been discussed before, but I don't think everyone takes up an instrument to be able to play with others. As a kid I learned the viola which I enjoyed, but I'm rather turned off orchestral playing as a result, although I quite enjoyed string quartets. I started learning the oboe because I want to play the oboe. At the moment I don't have regularly have the time to commit to a group, and I'm not interested in an orchestra anyway.

I have been intrigued by the people who started learning the violin (or whatever) specifically so they could be in an orchestra. I'm not dedicated enough to do something where it would take 5 years to reach the main goal.

I also would not understand how they do it 'if the only purpose of taking up that instrument was to join an orchestra'.
I play violin because I simply LOVE IT and started playing it thinking of 'just me' playing beautiful music, the orchestra appeal came later...
but I am sure that people who take up an instrument to be in an orchestra surely love playing that instrument anyway right? otherwise how could you keep up practicing and improving if you don't enjoy it?

You have to really want to be in an orchestra. To be honest, I find it hard to understand how anyone can enjoy playing a stringed instrument for at least the first couple of years, unless they are unusually talented.

Either I am talented or I like really boring things as I've enjoyed playing my violin from the first lesson
I think the latter is more likely as in 2 years I am 'just' at grade 4 and a half

I bought myself a viola with the cunning idea it would be the most welcome instrument to slide sideways into for the pieces where the composer carelessly failed to write a harp part. Actually pulling this plan off is a very different matter as my practice time seems to get taken up by things with more strings...

I think river made a very pertinent point - that the "so I can play with others" instrument is very likely to be a sceond instrument.

Viohazard's love of violin was definitely "just because", and as a foreigner, I didn't know then that school orchestras were very rare in Japan.

Classical guitar is an instrument he is often asked to play FOR people, but invitations to play WITH people are rare. Singing ditto. He has one guitar and one singing project underway with a friend or two at present, but it's not the same as playing regularly with a group of people over a year or more.

Hence the sax - he got to play with a string quartet while in NZ, and came back to Japan knowing that he really didn't have time for another instrument, but absolutely DETERMINED to play in a group while at high school, which meant wind/brass band. He literally went along to the first band meeting with no idea of what to play, and was assigned tenor sax.

I took up the viola so I could play in orchestras...

I'm not a bad oboist (I have a master's in performance!), but in my part of the world, there are several oboists waiting for others to 'drop off their perches' so that we can take their places in the orchestras (in the nicest possible way!). There are many amateur orchestras here, but wind players are not rotated, and as such, others rarely get the opportunity to play... the viola was a way of getting a seat at a lower level than would normally be accepted, and it worked.

The issue then, was being asked to play the viola all the time, because there are fewer violists than oboists! These days' I rarely admit to playing the viola, and in fact, wouldn't trust myself to any more!

HEY!
this thread 'revived me' and made me re-write to one of the orchestras I enquired with in the past and wrote to 2 others. I asked if I could join for rehearsals only and one wrote back and accepted me!!!!


this is the Sutton Symphony Orchestra, I think it is a 'medium sized' type of amateur orchestra, about 4 concerts a year.

Next concert is on 20th of June and they are now rehearsing:

Vaughan Williams: Overture The Wasps


Delius: Walk to the Paradise Garden (or Malcolm Arnold's "Little Suite")


Elgar: 'Cello concerto


Walton: March "Crown Imperial"


Handel: Water Music (arranged by Hamilton Harty)


Wood: Fantasia on British Sea Songs



even though I will just sit there like a lemon I am sure (as never played with anyone before and never had to play sight-read stuff) I know I will enjoy it and am so happy I feel like a child again!

Well they certainly seem keen on keeping English music alive.

I knew a professional violist who told me that when she first joined the Halle she played an inch above the strings for a while, followed by a period on open strings.

Well, I think that'll be me for quite some time

If this is your first experience of ensemble music, just sitting there and following what is going on will be a challenge and a great education. My wife recommends "leap-frog" playing: you play the first note in each bar and as many more as you can manage correctly; as soon as you lose it, you stop playing, look at the first note in the next bar and then at the conductor, so that you are ready at the next downbeat. You can read her advice to beginning ensemble players (she runs a "late starters"
orchestra) here.

I was playing in a rehearsal of the Verdi Requiem, the conductor being an ex-professional 'cellist, when the 'cello section had trouble with a high, exposed and tricky soli passage. He stopped the rehearsal, and said, "If you lose it, give up. Many a job has been saved by knowing when to give up."

FANTASTIC Kenm, thank you SO much for the advice, I will put your wife's advice and someone else's advice I've received this morning together (that was: look at the last note in score and then at least you will play that final note with the rest of the players and feel great you've played the 'finale' LOL)

so with those 2 bits of advice I think I feel much more confident now that at least I will get the first note in each bar right and the 'closing' note

I feel better now, thank you thank you thank you

JoJo, this is really exciting news - this development AND the double bass, can you take any more musical novelty?! I would love to hear about your orchestral experiences (especially as you are playing with one of my more local orchestras). Do post and share how it all goes for you. Enjoy every ensemble moment!

I distinctly remember wearing an earplug in one ear to practise at one stage! Admittedly, in retrospect, I was coming down with ME and probably was developing oversensitivities to noise... but I just really wanted to play the dratted thing, and was too stubborn to let it beat me.


I hear ya!

Flutes are two a penny, violists are far more difficult to come by. For a while I played in a quintet with two Dip level cellists and two Dip level violinists, purely because I was the only viola available. (Not that, in my case, that was the reason I took it up, but it comes in useful sometimes!)

It is a risk you take, though, admitting you play viola - chances are that once you admit it, you will be asked to play again and again and again and...

As for taking up an instrument in order to play in a particular group, yep, can understand that. I admire anyone who chooses a string instrument for the purpose but, especially if someone is a reasonably competent musician, getting to a level where SOME ensemble will take you in (even if it's not an especially good one) need not take too much time (depending on the instrument, on the player, on the practice, and on the ensemble), and the joy of playing with others can amply repay the work. I'm addicted to playing in ensembles, and if finding my way round a new instrument would gain my entry into a new one, it would definitely be a temptation to at least have a go.

I can also understand people thinking it's a crazy thing to do...

I took up the violin again after many years on a whim - I don't really know why it suddenly came over me to begin playing again, I just wanted to. (I am given to whims, some more foolhardy than others - I think I'll buy a motorbike, I think I'll make a stained glass lapm, I think I'll do a triathlon......)

Then I realised thought that would be a bit boring and looked for other beginners to play with, and received an offer from people through this forum to play with their orchestra. Since I wasn't even grade 1 at the time I found this amazing/ridiculous, and the first 2 months at least I sat at the back and tried play a few notes while not disrupting the people who could play, and wanted to cry a lot of the time. At the end of each practice I was convinced they would ask me to leave - but they haven't, and now I can play at least a reasonable amount of all their pieces. (There is still a bit of miming involved I must admit.) It has been a brilliant experience for me and I so grateful to them for letting me join them. I look forward to each weekly practice session. I am sure it has not only improved my playing but is what is encouraging me to go on learning. I have been forced to teach myself the keys with multiple flats and a lot of theory in order to keep up.