Well done Jojo. I'm off to my first one tomorrow. This thread has been helping me immensely!!!

By the way - I love that picture of your Double Bass - I wan't one!!!

Nomenclature: the score is what the conductor has in front of him (or reliably in his head, if he's Boulez or some other clever people), with all the parts; the players have parts (i.e. only the notes that they play, not other people's, except occasional small notes to tell you what someone else ought to be playing, either to help you find your place or so that you can play it in his/her absence). This comes as a great shock to some pianists and singers, when they take up an orchestral instrument or singing from Renaissance style part books.

In some catalogues you will also see set or orchestral set, meaning the combination of score and parts of a piece.

The reverse can happen for some poor instrumentalist who is used to having just her own part, and one day gets the SATB recorder quartet part plonked in front of her. And keeps going to play the line below hers at the end of the line, rather than jumping to the 'third line down' of the next 'score set'

Alto, it sounds like you've made fantastic progress! well done you!
Thank you Maizie and Libitina.

Nick Cook: have you been to your 'first'???? eh eh eh??? if so, come on, how was it ? and please DO buy a bass, I feel kind of lonely here

Kenm, thank you for the lesson in 'orchestral jargon', I did mean 'part' when I said score and you picked up on that, thank you at least I won't sound like a fool again next week (as I've been referring to my part as the 'orchestral score' )

Keep thinking I should take up on the lovely older guy offer to join him with my double bass next week, but I only play in half and first position so far and don't always make a good sound

And by the way, today I dedicated the last 10 minutes of my practice to look at the 'parts' which I took home from the rehearsal, they looked daunting and I feel depressed again! BUT I will keep going like I said, promise!

Hi Jo,

Congratulations and thank you. This thread is inspirational and will keep me sawing away till I'm at a decent level to ask about joining one of the community orchestras round here.

Really well done.

Matt.

(Who would love to get a Double Bass as he used to play one in school... Wouldn't mind a Viola too... 'Cellos look nice too but realises that his wife would probably be very sad when she was put away in prison for killing him, even if the judge did agree that it was justifiable homocide and so is probably going to have to make do with the guitars and violin for now.... Used to have a piano but she'd just shoot me, pop me in it and bury it in the back garden if I went back to that.)

I hadn't noticed that it was you, particularly: it's quite a common usage on this forum, but not standard in orchestras or music publishers.

Jojo I would advise that you concentrate on orchestras not exams. I stopped taking exams after my grade 4, so basically have no paper qualifications.

I currently play in a yoith orchestra that is grade 7 minimum to join. It is great fun and we are even going on tour in july.

Basicallyin orchestra you have fun and learn new things quickly siuch new bowings, symbols etc you never knew before. If you are not planning to go pro then there is little need for paper qualifications that you get from exams.

Just have fun with your orchestra. When I went my first rehearsal with my current orchetsra I lost my place so many times it was unbelievable but now I lose my place maybe twice in the whole 2.5hours

Practice makes perfect!

Hi Jojo, first one tonight. I'm going along to the Windsor Community Orchestra. They are for players under grade 5 and I had a very nice e-mail back from the lady who runs it, so I'm really looking forward to it. I had a bit of practice sitting down last night (I usually play standing up), but didn't like it very much . Hope I get on alright tonight!!

2nd one tomorrow night!! I'm going along to the Baghot Band. they have a training band session before the main band, so I'm just going along to that. I'll see which one i like best, and hopefully join one of them.

I can't buy a Double Bass - I was in big trouble with my wife recently for buying a Tenor sax without telling her (I knew she'd say no if I did tell her!!! )

Nick let us know how you got on and which one you are thinking of joining


You have a VERY VALID point there Violin Hero
the exam would be 'just for my own personal experience'
NO WAY I can/have time to go pro with the violin, I mean, come on, I am 40 this year and there is hundreds of young talented musicians out there in music colleges and taking exams, when will a professional orchestra ever consider me unless I am the 2nd Sarah Chang on earth (and I am not )
so I think you have probably convinced me.
I'll ditch my exam programme, concentrate on orchestra and keep learning solo pieces too, then one day when I think I am PAST grade 8 standard I WILL sit my grade 8 as I WOULD LIKE to hang on the wall a nice grade 8 distinction, just for me to look at and smile

ps only just told my violin teacher I was going for grade 5 this winter, now I'll tell him I've changed my mind

I am very excited about your tour!!!
When I was a teenager I belonged to a HUGE choir and we toured the whole of Italy with them, it was one of the best times in my life! we had SO much fun! enjoy


Matt, you really made me laugh!!!

keep going with the violin, you'll be amazed how much you learn/progress in no time nice to know I can be 'inspirational', but I have to say that I find all the people on this forum inspirational, we are a great bunch

I was only doing exams for my own benefit but on speaking to others who play in the orchestras I go to, many of them have never taken any exams so the pressure has been lifted from me. I have learnt so much and discovered how to do things by playing with others and the discipline that is needed and it is so rewarding when we all make a nice sound together. Everyone has been so welcoming and encouraging - it spurs me on.

Some of the music does look daunting at first but each time you play it you will find you play a little bit more...

One thing I like to do is to see if I have a CD with the music on. I then sit down with my part and follow it with the CD. It is quite rewarding when you arrive at the end at the same time as the CD. This helps me to see how fast the piece travels and helps with the counting. I also visualise where my fingers are going whilst I am following it. I also tend to do this when a piece is played on the radio. If it is one that I have played I picture the notes and where my fingers would be going. Try it, it's fun.

Hello JoJo,

I just wanted to add my support to your exciting news!

I started playing in a really good amateur orchestra when I was about grade 5 too. To be honest, the only reason I got in was because my teacher played in it. I sat on the back desk of seconds, then gradually over the years worked my way up.

It is a fantastic way to improve, as you get so much exposure to different types of music, and it helped my sight reading, listening, technique, tone production, shifting, bowing, the lot!

If you get the opportunity to sit further forward (eg not last desk) then I would grab it. I actually find it quite hard sitting at the back because you can't hear quite so much and your own playing sounds quite loud. If you sit right in where the action is it is much easier to play - especially if you don't know what you are doing! Remember that you are not teacher-less because you'll have many 'teachers' sitting around you - watch, listen, and follow.

Regarding know when to shift - my advise is to watch the other players like a hawk. I still do this now. If I have a tricky passage I glance and see what the leader is doing. You can gleam so much information from other people. Remember you're not really on your own as others around you are playing the same part (thats why its sometimes better to sit in the middle than at the back).

Don't talk yourself out of the concerts either (unless they ask you not to play!). You'll have put in some hard work along the way, and you can get so much experience from the concert (playing under pressure etc). I often find that last rehearsal before the concert (usually on the day) is very scary but satisfying too - usually when everything falls into place.

Good luck - I know how daunting it is. I've returned to playing in an amateur orchestra after taking 12 years off playing. It has been hard going, but it is exhilarating when it all goes right. And don't worry about being the least able or experienced player. Everyone has to start somewhere and your standard of playing will probably go through the roof once you get going :-)

NellieVic.

In his excellent book, "Orchestral Performance", a large compendium of all the things a conductor of amateur orchestras needs to know, Christopher Adey spends some time on the characteristics that particular players need to have. In the strings, he discusses the characteristics of the leader, the inside front desk player in the firsts and, to my initial surprise, outside back desk of firsts. This can be quite daunting for a young person of limited experience, whatever their playing ability, since only a quarter of his/her periphery is occupied by the orchestra, and up to three quarters by the audience, so Adey suggests that a requirement is a calm, self-confident personality.

Thanks Ken - I'm quite compelled on your above description to go out and get that book at once!

Thank you for your post NellieVic
really good points in there, am definitely not giving up on this one after all the positive I've heard from everyone but I will NOT join in their concert on 20th of June, I honestly just 'sit' there at present, cannot even 'pretend' I am playing as most of the time I don't even know it's our turn to play maybe the concert after this in september or something

It's fat, heavy and expensive. I'm sure you would find it interesting, reading about what he thinks conductors should know (daunting if you happen to be one ), but I suggest getting it from your local library, on an inter-library loan if their parent body doesn't have it.

Oh my goodness! I remember playing in a youth orchestra under Chris Adey.. back in the days when I played the clarinet. His hair was black and his voice reached his boots. There was a tarty blonde flautist flirting like mad with him and he was quite cruel about her.

A good conductor though, thoughtful, clear and brilliant with young people (but a hard taskmaster ).

Hi!

I am in a schools' Scottish fiddle orchestra, where I play VIOLIN in treble clef .
So, my advice if you can't play it is one step up from mime: play the tonic note to the right rhythm for the entire piece. It's just your own little counter-melody!!!

thanks for the tip viola_babe

tonight was my 2nd time at rehearsal,
I have to say: I felt a 'little' better, this time instead of not knowing where I was in reading the music 3 quarters of the time, I was only 'lost' 1 quarter of the time!! This is in just 'reading the part' NOT playing I have to underline!!
I managed to play mmmmmm lets see......maybe 10 notes in the whole 2 hours rehearsal??? But at least I knew where I was 'supposed' to play most of the time (eeerrrmm)
so, yep, definitely feel better about it tonight, am happy as yesterday when my teacher 'helped me' to go through one part I was in tears as I felt so COMPLETELY LOST like all of a sudden I didn't know how to play violin anymore!!! I was really a short breath away from giving up on this! not anymore

My teacher has been helpful though, he 'shed light' on some things I didn't know, example:
I said to him: mmmmm there are lots of 'double stops' in these orchestral parts and he said:'No,you don't play a double stop, if you sit on the right you play the higher note, if you sit on the left you play the lower note! you don't play both!!' then he said:'If you have 3 notes and you sit on the right you play the higher and the middle, if you sit on the left you play the middle and the lower'
THAT made me feel HEAPS better

goodnight

WELL DONE YOU!!! Again - that's it now... you're part of an orchestra!!!


NEXT WEEK!!!! I hand in my Uni stuff on Friday so I'm phoning about our orchestra next week!!!

so happy you are going to do this soon

Hi Jo,

I've not been on the forums for ages so only just read your updates. Sorry to hear you had such a difficult time your first week, but very well done for going back. The first rehearsal is always a bit tricky. Things get easier as you get to know the music, I promise. Plus there is no better way IMHO of getting to know a piece than playing it in an orchestra.

With your orchestral parts it's important to know which bits to practise when you get home. I mark the difficult bits on my part or write down bar numbers. No point polishing the things that are already shiny! Seriously though, it can be deceptive - the easiest-looking bars can be difficult when played at the conductor's chosen tempo or if you find you're playing across the rhythm of some other section. Conversely, sometimes passages that look hard end up being much easier than you think.

You can play orchestrally and work towards an exam. I do. It just takes a bit of discipline. Decide what's important and spend the majority of your time on that. Even 10 minutes a day on your orchestral pieces will work wonders. And don't forget, each different style of playing will benefit the other.

Well done too for forging links with the double-bassist in your orchestra. Having friends in the orchestra is half of what makes it such a fun activity. I really hope you can find it fun too.

Oh, by the way, I constantly get lost in my part and so do the people around me. Even the front desk get lost sometimes, and they are damned fine musicians - they are just very good at miming!!!

Well done Jo on your second appearance. I'm going along for my second appearance tomorrow. I have been practising some of the pieces, but I have difficulty when my part is not the main tune that I know!!!

Tell me about it Nick (how difficult it is when you're not playing the main tune), in 2nd violins you often DON'T play the main tune, so that all adds up to the fun Please keep us updated on how YOU go with your rehearsals

Thank you for your support viola-mad
I am very happy I went back and hopefully it will be easier and better each time and 'little by little' I may even be able to play half a piece a year from now!
I certainly NEED to learn to count during my pieces, I have avoided it like MAD in the past 2 and a half years, used to with my piano learning as well, my teachers constantly tell me off about this and nothing has made me count SO FAR, but now I am FORCED TO, so this is the best cure the 'doctor could prescribe'! Now I WILL learn how to count

Excellent news that you went back Jo and brilliant to hear you enjoyed it. Music can be such an emotional experience can't it? I empathise with the pricking sensation of near tears that can creep up out of sheer frustration. As a reluctant and resistant counter myself, maybe the orchestra cure would work . . .not sure though!

That's one possibility. Another is that individual notes (Top, Middle, Lowest) will be allotted to players, often like this, starting on front desk, outside to the right:

M T
T L
L M
M T
T L
L M

or (in a good orchestra, where every member of the section can play everything)

T T
M M
L L
T T
M M
L L

In a break, or (in some orchestras) when the conductor is busy with another section, you can ask your stand partner or your section principal what has been decided for a multi-note passage.* Standard protocol is that only section principals ask the conductor anything, but some amateur orchestras are very relaxed about this.

* or any other decision that needs to be taken for the section as a whole. Of these, bowing is the most frequent and this may have been decided by the conductor or by the leader, but often in consultation with the section principals and sometimes by the principal alone. In my regular orchestra, the conductor is a wind player and pianist, and the leader is aware that bowing contraints differ among the instruments, so he never tells the basses how to bow, and I am happy to do it. That and knowing most of the music beforehand are my justifications for leading a section of players all of whom play the bass as well as or better than I do.

One of Christopher Adey's aphorisms that I always keep in mind:

"It doesn't matter which way the bow is travelling; it's which bit of it is on the string."

I meant have fun I can't imagine what noise I would make in an Orchestra.

Anyone remember those plastic tubes that you swung round to get a sound from? I might manage one of those

I once had to play percussion in the college orchestra at university.
(the uni I went to was comprised of about 30 separate colleges with approx 300 students in each, and my college had an orchestra - I think that the admission criterion was grade 5).
At the time I didn't play anything, but I had a choral scholarship so I was told "well, you can read music, therefore you can play percussion!" which has to be one of the most peculiar assumptions I have ever met!
The percussion parts seemed to consist of 17952 bars rest and then hit the gong, or something equally terrifying! I have never been so scared in my life! I have no idea how it sounded, but the next time the college had a concert involving the orchestra I went home for the weekend for a very important (and non-existent) family party.
I also ended up playing the triangle in the university chamber orchestra on the basis that I was standing on the end of the front row of the choir. One of my friends was so amused by this that she bought me a triangle, which I still have (and have still never used).

Funnily enough, I have never actually had the slightest desire to play percussion!

Anyway, well done on going back - I am sure that it will get much easier - and good luck with it!

That is a great story and made me giggle, especially with your description of the length of rest before the crucial moment!

Trumpet parts have been described as, "90% boredom and 10% terror", but for percussion it's 99% and 1% (the boredom is less if you enjoy listening to your colleagues, as I do most of the time, but some remnant of terror usually persists).

Initially, counting rests requires great concentration. Several aspects of it improve with practice and know-how: the concentration gets easier, so that some people can count unconsciously; you can use your fingers to help (if you count in binary, five fingers get you to 31, ten to 1023); you can write in cues, in soft pencil;* eventually you may know the music so well that you recognise from memory what precedes your entry. Some back desk string players tend to be neglect this skill, since they can easily follow their front desk, but in addition to chamber music, in which it's everyone for him/herself, there are occasional larger works, such as the Strauss "Metamorphosen for 23 solo strings, where the same applies.

* I learnt an economical scheme from the Hindemith horn sonata: if there is insufficient room to pencil in a stave with pitches, you can use just stems and flags or beams to indicate a distinctive rhythm. Another useful landmark is the entry of a new tune or important line on a recognisable instrument (assuming you can trust the player always to get it right), when you can write in just "flute", "strings", "horns", etc.

My violin teacher who has played in a few professional orchestras, once told me this story on how he was in Italy with this orchestra and this 'percussion member' of the orchestra was 'flying from uk to italy' to play just one note on the triangle.

anyway, his turn came up and....he didn't ring his triangle as he fell asleep!!!!

I was told he did not get paid for that concert

Thank you for that giggle Jo - that anecdote will stay with me for a long time!

Was it your third time at orchestra last night Jo? Was it lucky . . .? Hope so.

Hi Miss Sooky, yes it was
lucky? afraid not, I still don't play but just watch and read the music, but I can say that last night I 'lost' where they were in the music only a couple of times, so I am getting better.
Let's say I got used to not play and just watch if 'one day' far away from now I will be able to join with playing then good
They are being kind and patient with me, I don't have to pay any joining fees until september

That's it!!!! The day is booked!!!!

Next Tuesday I go along to the orchestra rehearsal!!!!


I had to clear it with my teacher last night because my lesson is on a Tuesday but I have 'leave' to go along - she thinks they will allow me to join in. I'll try and find a phone number first to call someone otherwise I'll put Martha in the boot of my car and just pop inside to watch

Oooooo so scary but so excited!!!

Hope you have a nice time, lottie.

FANTASTIC!!!
you on a tuesday as well? just like me
we can 'compare notes'

Fantastic - Tuesday night is orchestra night! You two are an inspiration.

I haven't actually got through the doors yet.... feeling quite nervous !!!

Well done!!!

Sounds similar to something which happened to me yesterday, only I wasn't expecting it.

I play the flute (but was looking through strings out of curiosity ) and am grade 5. I looked into joining the orchestra for a community play which is coming up- the last play they did had lots of kids in the orchestra.

I went along, turned out that it was only pros doing it this time. There were only 5 other musicians (double bass, trombone, trumpet, clarinet and another flute) but they were all either teachers and had studied at college, or had played in west end orchestras/london orchestras.

I sat there not doing much, they all knew I was grade 5, and weren't expecting much. They were all really supportive and asked me questions about teachers, grades etc.

I joined in with a few pieces which I could play (they were sight reading them all perfectly )
they played through each one twice, and it was surprising how, once you got the feel for the piece of music, how easy it was to trundle along with it.

I'm not sure if I'm going back. I'm getting a copy of the music to practice, the conductor said he wouldn't mind at all if I stayed.

It was a great experience anyway, and gave me something to aspire to.

Have fun!

Yesterday I go accepted into my second orchestra, Lambeth Orchestra. I am very happy.

The MD sounded very nice on the telephone and assured me although I may be the youngest there, aged 18, I will not be out of place or anything like that.

I get to meet them at there first rehearsal for there next concert on July 4th this Thursday.

Congratulations - a member of two orchestras! How long have you been playing?

Well done! Some years ago I used to go to hear them play in the QEH at the South Bank - they were very good...

W

I have been playing violin on and off for ten years. One day i hope to get into a professional string/ musical group.

TWO hours to go until I go along to the orchestra rehearsal.

I'm really feeling quite nervous!!!

Pan wants to stay at home but Martha says she'll lurk in the boot of the car just in case......




... just 'in case'....... gettit! in her 'case' I'm SOOOO funny when I'm nervous

Well there's good news and bad news:

I couldn't see anyone going into the hall so I had a look and it was all closed off because the floor had been newly varnished.. no sign of an orchestra anywhere.

So I went round to the community centre and they said the orchestra had held it's concert in the theatre the previous friday and that usually marks the end of their term and they break up over the summer .

The lady there gave me the phone number (at last a contact!!) of the conductor so I drove round the village until I could get a signal on my mobile and phoned him. He's a lovely elderly violin teacher. He said yes I had missed the end-of-term and they wouldn't start again until the third week of August. So we chatted for a bit and I explained where I am - he was very keen that I join the viola section! He's standing down as conductor next term and will be playing in the violas. I did say that my violin playing was more advanced so he said we would have a look at the new music in August and see where I could fit in.
The concert they had just played included a Haydn symphony, Tchaikovsky, Bacharach(!) and Shostakovich so it was a real mixed bag.



I did tell him about my previous life as a clarinettist so my orchestral experience is quite extensive and my sight-reading is better than my playing standard. He hinted I should play clarinet but I said I hadn't touched it for twenty years and the violin was my love and he sounded delighted.

He said they're a very friendly mixed bunch, from housewives to engineers and doctors, and they rehearse from 7.30 - 9.45 with a coffee break.

I can't wait for August now!!!!!

Eeee, Lottie, you've just reminded me that there's no orchestra on Thursday. I'd have driven to the other side of the county for nowt!

Hope you have a lovely time with your orchestra when it starts again in August.

So thrilled you had a positive experience even if it was not quite what you expected - I always think with new things that the personal contact is the most crucial bit in making you feel welcome. It tends to be the ice breaking phase that makes me most apprehensive. It sounds like you will be warmly received by a very friendly and diverse group in August. I bet you can't wait - do let us know what happens when you head off for your first session. And well done for getting in that car in the first place!

hey Lottie,
I have people at the orchestra 'hinting' at me I should join with the double bass Maybe one day I'll do both, one week one the next the other LOL

anyway, am in Italy at present, thought I was going to practice hours every day but am NOT practicing AT ALL, it's so hot as soon as I pick up the violin I start sweating buckets and my father does not have a fan in the house! nor I have the money to buy one!!! I am spending the whole day just lying in bed

There are times to practise and times to lie in bed - as long as you are doing your lying in bed in the physical rather than the dishonest sense, that seems okay to me !