So sorry, but I HAVE TO share this with you as I am SO excited I feel like I am a 5 year old!!!

I have emailed 3 'medium to big' amateur orchestras and told them I am grade 4 and a half on violin, can I please (and begged) join them for rehearsals only???

One replied very promptly: The Sutton Symphony Orchestra

and said: yes, of course!!!!

They rehearse 2 hours every tuesday evening, so my first time will be next tuesday

At the moment they are rehearsing for their next concert on 20th of June:

Vaughan Williams: Overture The Wasps


Delius: Walk to the Paradise Garden (or Malcolm Arnold's "Little Suite")


Elgar: 'Cello concerto


Walton: March "Crown Imperial"


Handel: Water Music (arranged by Hamilton Harty)


Wood: Fantasia on British Sea Songs


NOW, I am also SCARED STIFF as I know I will just sit there like a lemon and not play a note for the whole 2 hours!!!!
I hope they will be patient and don't mind if I don't play at all or get it wrong for the next 6 months LOL LOL

I have just arranged with my teacher to have weekly lessons (from fortnightly) as I really want to move on now and progress a bit and would like to do my grade 5 exam in november/december slot.

Anyone know the above scores?
Do you think I'll stand a chance and be able to play even just 'half a bar' ????

AM SO HAPPYYYYYYYY
(hope they don't kick me out!)

HOW AMAZING!!!

I can imagine how you want to dance throughout the night, fly over the sofa... This is indeed excellent news!

I bet you will get to join a real performance before long!

Now you make me want to join a choir

Well done!! I've been looking at concert orchestras near me that I could join, but they all have their practice sessions on a Friday when I take my daughter trampolining. My daughter's now given up the trampoling and my excuse for not going has disappeared!!!! I'm trying to pluck up the courage to get in touch!!!

Of course you will! Just imagine what they'll be like when they find out you're a double-bassist-in-training

Remember, if the music in front of you looks utterly complete dreadfully totally impossible...look at what the last note is. You can follow the music and join in with that lovely final finishing note, no matter what else you can and can't do on the night

Good for you, Of course you know we'll be asking you know how the practice sessions are going.

All the best to you.

Rachel.

GREAT TIP!!! I think I'll do 'just that' for the first 6 months of training LOL




Oh don't worry, I WILL let you know

Yay! Nice work. It's scary making that initial contact, but I'm sure you'll love it once you get there.

At grade 4-5 standard I should think you'll be able to give the Walton and the Handel a really good shot. Must admit I've never played the RVW or the Delius (although having played other pieces by Delius, I should say that it sometimes feels wrong when you're playing it, even when you're right!).

The Elgar is deceptively tricky. Not in the notes but the rests. It's very bitty. Remember - count, count, count. With a bit of practice I'm sure you'll be fine with the notes. The Wood is great fun and mostly quite playable. The hornpipe gets tricky as it speeds up, but if you play it in the concert don't worry unduly about this - audiences tend to get so excitable that they are not concentrating on whether you remembered to play a C# or not. And if it's a proms-type concert they won't hear anyway! Just as long as the music retains its character they will be happy.

If you're worried about being able to play this stuff, my best piece of advice is to try and get the CDs (or you could try you tube) and listen to the pieces before trying to play them. If you have your parts in advance of your first rehearsal, try listening to the CD whilst following your part. This can be tricky when you don't know the tempi, or when you have a change in time signature, but it's well worth persevering with - think about how much easier it will be when there's a baton to watch.

Most of all, enjoy it. There's usually great camaraderie in each section of the orchestra. It's exhilarating sitting in the middle of a huge sound and fascinating to see how the music works, how the different instruments interact with each other, etc. Orchestral playing is the most fun!

Great!!
Hope you enjoy yourself.

You'll probably find it's not half as bad as you think, I was able to play most of the music and I'm a similar level to you.

I'm sure you'll make a valuable contribution even if you don't play every note.

Make sure you say how you get on!

Thank you Lizzy Violin and Viola Mad.
Viola mad, wow, so much help, thank you!

I will keep in mind all the tips given to me in this thread.
I will DEFINITELY go on youtube and try and listen to all the music before I go there, it will be ALL I listen to this week!

After all the excitement a sense of 'DOOM' is coming, I am SCARED STIFF of this now!
How will I know if I go in 1st/2nd/3rd/6th position when my teacher is not there? if to use 3rd finger or 4th? The way the bow goes is easy, I just watch all the other bows if I lose my place in the middle of a bar

Do you know if I will 'annoy' the other (much more experienced as they are grade 8 and beyond I think) players if I get things wrong, my bow goes the wrong way etc??? If there is any chance of that I will put a practice mute on my violin

WELL DONE and to think it all started with Twinkle Twinkle Little Star!

Thank you Sandy

ps shall I play twinkle twinkle quietly in the background during rehearsals??? then when they all turn around and stare at me I'll turn around too and look 'surprised' (wasn't me honest!)

You will need to figure out the best fingering for you. Learn to plan your own fingering, make your own choices and ask your teacher what he/she thinks, rather than letting your teacher mark things up without you really taking much notice of how they are structuring the fingering.

I'm sure you won't annoy them, but, if you are sat on the inside seat of the desk (ie. generally speaking there will be two of you to one music stand), you are the one who's responsible for turning the pages of the music!! This means you will have to stop a bar or so before the end of the page, so that you are ready to turn it over. In fast movements this come up rapidly, so at all costs make sure you can at least follow what's going on, even if you are not managing to play all of the notes. If you can score read, this is a skill which will be of immense help.

Using a practice mute won't help you. In the string sections of an orchestra, it's difficult enough to hear yourself playing anyway, so using a practice mute isn't going to benefit anyone. If in doubt, play quieter, so that any stray/dudd notes are not audible over everyone else.

The bowings should be marked on the music in advance - this is sometimes done by the orchestra leader, or occasionally each desk has to copy the markings from the leader's music.

I'll be honest. The whole experience will probably overwhelm you to begin with, but stick with it. Your playing and ability to 'keep up' will improve with time. One piece of advice: don't ever think that orchestral rehearsals = a portion of practice time. It doesn't. The same amount of private practice is required on top of ensemble activities and when you practice your orchestral part at home, don't waffle through the easy bits, work on the difficult bars.

EDIT: The Wasps Overture is quite fast, if you can't play every note, don't worry. Just follow the line of music and play what you can.... and remember to turn that page if you are sat on the inside of your desk.

Good luck!

Amanda, thank you so much for all your help, it is greatly appreciated.

I have just started recently to 'choose my own fingering and position', my teacher was 'dictating' what was what until recently.
I am learning the Chopin's Nocturne transcription by Neilstein and am working bit by bit on my own, my teacher came round last monday and was playing the next bit we were supposed to learn, I stopped him and said: AH, BUT I am doing that bit 'up here' (I say up here and show him because often I don't even know which position I am in, if it's 5th or 6th etc), he is pleased I am now doing this of course as it shows I am 'growing' as a 'musician' and learning/progressing.

I really hope they will be kind to me and don't ask me to be the 'page turning master' what is the inside of the desk? you mean if I sit on left and I have someone sitting to my right?
if I am in that seat I will ask to swap

And thank you so much for the practice tip, not to count orchestral playing as practice time, I will make sure I get my daily hour practice before I go to orchestral rehearsal then (I am trying to practice an hour every day, sometimes I have to be happy with just 15 minutes )

I am absolutely 100% sure you are right that the whole experience will overwhelm me in the beginning, I am overwhelmed already!!! am scared stiffed but happy at the same time!

But all these tips from you and others are making me feel better. I am so happy this will help me progress and learn

FANTASTIC JO!!!!!!!!


You'll have a brilliant time!!

When I started with the fiddler orchestra (3weeks after picking up the violin for the first time) I played the last note in every bar. Then I added the first note in every bar, and after a few months I could play some bits in between Not all the bits though for a while anyway!!!

What a brilliant opportunity. (I must phone our local orchestra - you've inspired me! (but it's the same time as my lesson so I'd need to sort that out ))


HAVE FUN!!!!!!!

Jojo!! Congratluations!!! I remember joining around the same time last year and I couldn't sleep after the first rehearsal!

Here is my experience (keep in mind that I only played for 3 months when I joined)
1. I cannot follow the music because my counting is weak! I have a hard time following the score, so if you're counting is good, don't worry, just make sure you know where you are at all times

2. Always try to watch the conductor with your peripheral vision (the first few months, you will likely glue your eyes to the music)

3. when you are lost, play the down beat of each bar

4. Bring a orchestra mute (the tiny ones), i don't know if any of the above music will require it, but if they say con sordina, you'll need that

5. Find a seat way in the back and to the left if you're violin section is on the left side (looking from an audience stand point). Yes, the inside chair will need to turn page, but in general, the right desk is the stronger player. Practice how to turn page without poking your stand partner with your bow, or drop everything

6. Bring pencil to write down bowings/dynamics whatever the conductor tells you.

7. Yeah, regarding figuring out fingerings, you can always ask your standpartner or section lead to help you, but it's also good to figure it out on your own. Everyone's experience is different and it could be harder for you while easier for others.

8. Most importantly, have fun and report back!

Yes, inside is the left. (As an aside, does anyone know whether this still stands in less conventional orchestral layouts, such as when 2nd fiddles sit where the cellos usually do?) As Fayewolf points out, the player on the right tends to be the more advanced. If and when you play divisi, the player on the right generally has more leger lines to contend with. Plus, if you're on the left you can sometimes avoid having to play a really tricky bar because you're busy turnin the page!

Actually I might disagree about finding a seat at the very back. You may be placed somewhere, but if you get the option, I'd go perhaps second to the back, even though I expect you'll feel self-conscious. We move around a lot in my section and I for one play better when I sit further forward. You can hear everybody else much better and it's easier to stay together; it can feel lonely at the back and it's harder work.

Don't be scared. In a short time the rewards will start to massively outweigh the effort of your hard work. Orchestral playing is the best thing that ever happened. This is the beginning of a huge musical adventure for you and it's sooooo exciting! And it's great for meeting new people - after all, you already have one fairly major thing in common.

WOW fayewolf, thank you, got lots of tips here, I feel so lucky!
Thanks to lottie too and to viola-mad again, it is nice to hear other people's experiences and suggestions

Thanks viola-mad when you say 'don't be scared' but I think I will be (but in a positive way me thinks) but I also know that one day I will look back to my first rehearsal and smile (or have a total cracking time laughing )

Well done

Hope you have lots of fun, I've also been lucky enough to land a clarinet place in an orchestra (am no where near the required level on viola yet lol!)

Have lots of fun

Me too!!

you too which one notmusimum? you also have a place in an orchestra or you also play the viola? or both?

JoJo, I replied to your post in the general forum but am so glad that you have posted here too. I am not an orchestral player, but you have joined one of our local orchestras, and I know a few members who are lovely. I think you will be welcomed and find that you don't need to worry about feeling 'silly' at all. Whatever their current standard, I bet everyone there remembers their 'first' time and responds warmly to newbies. I am very excited for you and really look forward to hearing all about your rehearsal next week. Well done you!

In this instance it's the player sat on the RIGHT. ie. the convention is that the page turner is always the person sat furthest from the audience.

Miss Sooky, what a coincidence!!!!!!
I have never 'met' (although we are 'virtually meeting online') anyone near me
How funny that I am joining an orchestra local to you.
I currently live in Carshalton Beeches.
Good to hear I'll have nothing to fear and they are a lovely warm 'bunch' of people who will make me feel welcome.
You made my day!

if you ever want to get together to play just pm me

I agree with the other comments. Yes you will find it a struggle - the Handel and the Walton shouldn't be too bad. If the others really are all grade 8 plus (that would be unusual for an amateur orchestra second violin section) then it would perhaps be worth emphasising repeatedly that you are along for the ride, for the experience, and you don't expect to play in the concert. Or, if the programme happens to be kind to you on the night, it might be possible to play in one half but not the other. Bottom line, keep your place especially if you are turning, and if you don't know what you are doing just mime (been there done that many many times!)

Liz

thanks Liz, I am quite a good actress by the way
I have already made it clear to them 'it's only rehearsal' I would like to do for quite a while

I'm so excited for you, but i gotta tell you, I started with "just joining rehearsals so I can experience playing with others), I ended up playing in their concerts.

By the way, is it just me? I find Vivaldi's Summer extremely difficult to play when compared with his other seasons! Lots of scales

well, I don't mind playing in concerts BUT that will be IF AND WHEN I am good enough for that
lots of scales?
sounds like a good one for me, I LOVE scales

I don't mind scales if they are at a reasonable speed, but this is presto!

I play in 3 amateur orchestras now and am enjoying every minute of it. I started at the back of the 2nd violins in one of them and am now in the front. The other two I am sitting halfway. I have recently joined a 4th orchestra and am sitting at the back again as this one is a lot more challenging and has a paying audience at concerts, the other three orchestras have donations for charities. It has helped my playing considerably and learning to count like mad and come in at the right place! Some things move at a cracking pace and I can't always get all the notes but I have a good try and the main thing is to keep your place, especially if you are the page turner!

I have recently returned from a foundation course for playing in Quartets and that really puts you on the spot as you are the only one for your part! - but I loved the experience and will go back for more. There are just not enough hours in the day to fit everything in.

I am now working hard with the 4th orchestra I have joined for our concert this month and they have said I can do the concert which I am looking forward to.

WOW 4 orchestras????

you must be a busy little bee

but well done.

I set myself the limit of 2 orchestras, I am in one with the violin now, will get into another one with double bass when I have learnt to play it enough

Jojo, I am so jealous: I'd LOVE to be able to play in a performance of the Elgar! (Well actually, I would love to be capable of playing the cello solo part, not necessarily with an orchestra - just the notes...those opening chords always give me the shivers!) But playing in the orchestra of a performance of it would be the next best thing.

Don't worry about it at all - I spent 7 years at school pretending to play in orchestras! I had pretending to play down to a fine art! I remember the first time I ever played in an proper orchestra - I was 11 and was put in the third violins, and even then the music was harder than anything I'd ever played in my entire life. I was particularly terrified of the "Poet and Peasant Overture", though did love "Slavonic Dance". I used to get shouted at all the time for getting the bowings wrong, but that was probably because the conductor was my teacher, and she knew I probably just hadn't practised!


You won't necessarily be put at the back - apparently ideally players of varying abilities should be spread throughout the orchestra, so there are strong players to help the weaker ones, and so that all the mistakes aren't coming from one section! You'll have lots of fun!

I'm joining an orchestra - rehearsals start this weekend. I'm a bit scared because it's quite an advanced orchestra, and I'm being given a trial, so I'm pretty nervous! We're playing, among other stuff, the Saint Saens Organ Symphony.

You jealous of me????
with your portfolio I am the one who's jealous

I'll do my best to learn 'how to pretend' as quickly as possible

My first rehearsal is tomorrow evening so I'll update you all

^^ Wishing you all luck for tomorrow evening and do share it with us!

Best of luck, Jo! Enjoy the experience!

There's just not enough hours in the day for me to join one at the moment, even for rehearsals....

Good luck for tonight Jo!!!


I think you've given me the confidence to approach our local orchestra soon.... maybe (*shy*)

Oh, go for it Lottie - you can do it!

Do it!!!!! If you're prepared to put in the necessary work, just go for it. Once you've played a couple of concerts you'll wonder why you waited.

Jo, best of luck for tonight. Most of all, enjoy yourself. Even if you can't quite manage to get all the notes in, drink up the sound that everybody else is making - it's amazing.

ok, so how was it????

in a nutshell!

Basically I have done what I thought I would do:
sit there like a lemon!!!!

I think I played 4 notes in 2 hours, lost my place reading the score about 100 times, could not make sense of it at least half of the time!!!

I have NEVER seen an orchestral score in my life so I don't know if you can imagine

I definitely have to learn to count!!! This will be good for me as I have always done my best NOT to count in the last 2 years and a bit I've been learning an instrument, but now I HAVE TO LEARN TO COUNT ALL THE TIME!!!! Guess it will be a pain in the beginning but when (the day ) I get used to it hopefully it will be second nature!

I managed to borrow the scores so will photocopy them (been told this is 'allowed' and 'legal' so long that it is for use in the rehearsals only? is that right? I don't want to do anything wrong )

The people are friendly and they managed to make me think they don't even notice how much of a lost fish I am!!!

They even looked surprised when I said I won't be joining the for the concert
(yeah right, if they want a clown in there then I'll join )

There is only ONE guy (oldER guy) playing the double bass, bless him, he was struggling tucking his bass away in its soft case at the end and I helped him and had a little chat with him. He said I should bring my bass down and join him as he gets lonely as he's the only one (awww bless)

Anyway, I am NOT giving up on this, even though I have to be honest, that would be a VERY easy thing to do as it was SO DAUNTING, and it feels like I am in a room of people speaking mandarin and I am supposed to join in the conversation!!!!

Next week round 2!

I will go over the scores, but I have to be honest, if I spend my time learning this orchestral stuff there is NO WAY I will be able to prepare for my grade 5 exam in november. A decision has to be made here: either learn the orchestral part or do my exam, I don't think I can do both

I just don't have that much practice time, I struggle to get an hour practice a day and that is barely enough for my grade 5 preparation

Off to bed now

Well done - you brave thing!!!

What a fantastic experience for you... and I'm sure you'll play twice as many notes next week!


Now, like the lion from Wizard of Oz, I need to find my courage and take inspiration from you

I don't suppose you will surprised when I say that playing in an orchestra is much more fun than taking exams and, unfortunately, requires some expertise that preparing for exams will not teach you. What might help is practising to a metronome, initially at a convenient tempo, eventually at the one that the conductor chooses: this will help you to decide how to cope with the bars that you can't play yet (my wife insists that that word always follows "I can't play that").

Jojo, excellent attempt! Seems like a great cohort of people at the orchestra.

Yes, I know what you mean juggling between grade 5 exam and orchestra. It will be quite challenging.

I feel that you might want to put grade 5 exam as first priority, if you have already started preparing for it.
Orchestra is important too, as I am pretty sure it will improve your skills as a performer!

Perhaps you want to scope out a couple bars from the orchestra score, and spend about 2 hours a week to learn those. Then you can at least play a few bars when you go for practice Just my idea

Jojo, I was looking forward to reading your experience and it was here today!! yay!!! I totally understand how you feel. I want to link you to my blog on my first day in orchestra experience.

http://www.violinist.com/blog/fayewolf/20084/

I was going to quit after the first rehearsal because I was so lost it wasn't even funny, but the friendly people at v.com suggested that I stick it out and I did, and I've played in that same orchestra for a year now! It takes about 1-2 months to get really comfortable of where you are in the music, I swear! You're counting will be so much better!!

Are you playing 2nd violin? They are not as easy as people think, because sometimes we have odd rhythms and we do not carry the melody. I remember when I first started, I borrowed minature version of the whole score and listened to the recording, it helps me to see and hear the first violin part (it's a whole lot better than my counting).

I hope this helps a little!

JoJo, I was thinking of you yesterday evening and this was the first thread I came to when I logged on this morning! You did so well simply to walk through the door (and stay the right side of the door!). I am really glad that everyone was friendly (although it is as they should be) and wonder if perhaps they all remember their first time trying to keep up and make sense of what was going on . . .I think it is so easy in music to forget that a) most significant steps take practice and time and b) we do make progress, even if it can seem slow, and one day that which seemed so impossible suddenly clicks into place. I am willing to bet orchestral playing is similar. Is there sufficient overlap for your orchestral adventures to complement your preparations for grade 5?

Once again, huge congratulations for being such an inspiration.



Thank you so much for sharing this - it is a very reassuring read for us all!

Thank you guys/gals
how lovely to wake up to your encouraging posts and your helpful tips!
Lottie, thank you so much for the cheering on, now I am waiting to do the same for you (hint hint)
Miss Sooky, thank you to you too, you're so sweet as usual, thinking of me on a tuesday evening!
Fayewolf, thank you so much I am definitely going to go over your blog when I get back from work this evening!!!! and thank you for sharing your experience with me!
Kenm, yes, the metronome is something I love but have only used a couple of times and this is the perfect time to dust it and put it to its use again!!!
Teoani, I think you balanced it out right, I will start by trying to give a couple of hours a week to the orchestral scores.
Having said that, I will see how I get on/feel as if I find that I love learning the orchestral parts so much I might decide to ditch my grade 5 exam, after all I don't need it, it was just 'for the heck of it' and I can equally improve without it, in fact, I have gone from grade 1 (did that exam) to grade 4 and a half in a year a half without taking any exams!
The leader of this orchestra plays in the 1st violins and he is really good, he has been playing in orchestras for 17 years he said, and he doesn't have a shred of paper stating what grade he is so if I don't need it why should I? I could put it on the back burner, we'll see like I said, which one I enjoy the best
Yes, they've put me in the 2nd violins, the lady playing next to me too the inside seat so she was turning the pages just as well as I would have missed out a few times especially in the wasps overture!!!!
When they asked me where I was going to play I replied: fifths violins

oh by the way, any of you can tell me if I can photocopy the scores for my own practice?

thank you to all of you!!!!!

I think you should be able to photocopy for your own. You mean they don't give you the scores to take home? Anyways, if that's the case, you may be able to find the scores of whatever you're playing here: http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Composers

I forgot to tell you, I ran into the same dilemma, although I don't do exams since I'm now living in the states, and no one knows what ABRSM is here, I still have private lesson's solo repertoire to worry about, I simply don't have time to practice both. I'm embarass to say, I hardly practice the orchestra stuff, but you gotta practice smart. Just practice the difficult runs, figure out the fingerings, etc. Do you guys have sectional rehearsals? That will have tons! I am also a very lucky girl, there is this fantabulous violin teacher that coaches me every week on orchestra stuff, and also helps me out with my solo work as well, about 2-3hrs a week (one session), so even though I only practice 40 minutes a day, I play ALOT of violin a week (1 hour lesson, 3 hour rehearsals, 3 hour coaching, plus my miminal 40 minutes a day), and when I have sectional, add another 2-3 hours!! *proud of myself*

Gosh everyone is up early today!!!

Yes, Jo, after the 15th when I hand in my Uni stuff, I am going to approach the orchestra!! (I will, I will, I will)

I also thought that (everybody up early LOL)
am really glad you will approach an orchestra and now that you said so I'll hold you up to it and so you must do it



Thank you again fayewolf
well, they gave me scores, they said I can photocopy them, they did not say how long I can keep them, so I am not sure if I am meant to give them back next week or what will ask next week, but will photocopy then in meantime in case I have to give them back.
By the way, they are scribbled on all over the place!!! so I might like to use photocopies anyway so that I can tell my markings from somebody else's!

thanks for the link, am off to visit it now

and yes, you are doing well with your practice, if I wasn't at work for 50 hours a week I might do the same

one day (looks forward to oldER age and retirement )

jojo, how wonderful! I'm very pleased to hear you're going to go again. Next time you can aim for getting five notes in the right place That's not meant to be a dig, it's just meant to say that you can progress at your own rate while you settle in with the orchestra (as someone said earlier, it takes time to get used to it).
It's nice they welcomed you, and it will get much easier as time goes on. I went to a new recorder group once, and they asked me - before we started playing, so nobody in the room had ever heard me play a note - if I was free the next Saturday to join them at a music festival - so I'm not surprised they 'expected' you to be joining in the concert! If you've got the courage to turn up, then you're ready to be unleashed on the unsuspecting public

Hi Jo

I was going through the exams but after getting Grade 3 I have decided I don't want to do anymore exams as I am learning all the time through playing with the amateur orchestras. I play 2nd violin. At one of them I am at the front but the others I sit at the back though sometimes come forward. At first I kept losing my place but I don't now. The main thing is to count and keep the rhythm going. The latest orchestra I have joined is the most difficult. We are doing St Saens organ symphony and the next concert is Brahams No. 3, Schubert No. 8 and a Weber. I was pleased about the Schubert as I know that from one of the other orchestras so it's not strange to me now. Like you said, everyone is very friendly and encouraging and I absolutely love it and I am sure my playing has improved as a result, my teacher thinks so too.

I have just returned from playing in string quartets at Benslow and that was an experience in itself as I was the only part there and couldn't rely on others to help me. I was counting like mad.....

Keep at it - you'll love it!

People say the hardest part of doing anything is taking the first step, which you did, So which ever way you decide to go either Orchestral or your exam studies, good luck, and anycase either is as good as the other, it's all experiance. :-).

At least you did it. Well done.
Rachel.