Does anyone know what's going on when people play from memory? Like, what the cues are that tell us what to do?

I just happened to try to play something earlier and couldn't do it. It was a single chant which I can play very securely from memory, but I tried to play it RH only and I couldn't do it. Both hands - no problem. RH again - still no.

So, why can my RH do its thing perfectly well when my LH is playing its part, but not by itself? What's required of my RH is exactly the same in both cases. It's not like a twiddly contrapuntal thing where the two hands need to interweave what their doing. It's just very plain chordal texture with no passing notes.

Clearly my RH is relying on my LH in some way to steer it through, but how and why? Is it the spatial relationship between the two, the sound, or what?

Interesting one Teigr ... I wonder whether the bass line somehow has a bearing on the whole thing? I mean gives some kind of prompt which when it's missing puts the alto and sop parts off their stroke in some way?

I feel fairly certain that with memory-playing, as with sight-reading, it's a very individual thing and the processes are not necessarily the same in any two people.

That's the sort of thing I was wondering about. /Something/ about what my LH does acts as a cue for my RH. But I don't know what exactly, or why/how it works.




Definitely.
I'd be interested to know if anyone else here can do it. I'm using an Anglican single chant, but I think a hymn tune would be similar.

Would also be interesting to see if the results change between chant/hymns and other pieces/textures. I'm pretty sure I can play just the top line of things (by ear if not from memory). But S&A without the LH is not happening.

I'll try it out later!

A lot of playing from memory is replaying a precise pattern of nerve impulses. Each step is triggered by the totality of the previous state. Change anything significant and the whole thing falls apart.

I don't know what standard of pianist you are Teigr, but I find that with a fair few of my adult students around grade 4/5 level, once they have learnt something hands together, they sort of seem to lump it all together in their brain and it is really a struggle for them to separate the hands again.
I think when one is a more advanced pianist and can really think in a two-track way, i.e. listen and do different things to each hand independently, the problem tends to disappear.
I know that's not quite what you are referring to, but it seemed pertinent.

I know that my memory for keyboard music is harmony-based, so this may be something to do with it. I often know which chord I want next, but not which inversion. So I'd be sunk playing RH only of a chant as I wouldn't know which two notes from the SATB harmony I needed.

Re playing from memory, from what I have read in Your Brain on Music and other 'music psychology lit' is that even virtuoso players remember music in 'chunks'. They recognize patterns, and if there are no patterns (virtuosi of course can recognize much more subtle patterns than average players), they too lose their places.

A soloist who has a blank in front of an audience may have to go back to the beginning of a part, or a phrase, rather than starting from a random note of the piece, because he/she will 'remember' the fingering, melody etc. in a 'chunk'.

So you may not be able to separate out the RH of your piece because for you the remembered chunk is HT, including the left hand, and without the left hand the whole thing is 'unfamiliar'. It is counterintuitive, because the RH alone sounds easier and simpler, but maybe not.

I too find I cannot often play e.g. the LH of, especially a baroque piece with the correct fingering, if I were to try it HS instead of together (from memory, without the music).

This is a very interesting post, and I had a discussion at great length with one of my pupil's today about it. He past his Grade 8 in December and last week after his lesson he went out and bought Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No 2. Today he came and played me, almost note perfect and from memory, ALL 18 pages of it! I asked him how he does it and he just doesn't know! He's listened to recordings of it, so obviously that's helped him learn it quicker, but how he's got all those notes in the fingers from memory in one week is beyond me. I've taught him from scratch, and in the early years it was always a battle to get him to read off the page, however, can do this as well. He doesn't learn separate hands first either.

In another scenario, my son, who's a Grade 3 and age 13 and shows the same traits as the above pupil (in that he memorizes everything very easily and does has perfect pitch) is also a mystery. He never forgets a piece he's learnt and will admit that he doesn't know how he does it. He said his fingers just do it for him I always hold my breath when he performs in concerts, festivals and exams, as it's 50/50 if he'll get through his pieces without slipping up. If he loses his place then he's had it (in the last festival, the adjudicator asked him if he could play from bar 10, and his answer was "no, sorry" However, he also plays lots of duets and trios in concerts, and never ever goes wrong. This seems to tie in with the conversations that are going about only being able to play both hands together and not one at a time. It seems that when the other parts are being played, this keeps my son on track totally.

Sorry to be long-winded, but I'm very interested in this and look forward to reading further posts on this.

aargh - I actually find it quite difficult to do this without at the same time imagining I'm playing the other hand too.

I haven't worked out if I really can do it - because I'm not convinced I have managed at the same time successfully to obliterate thoughts of the other half of the harmony.

Well, I'm not a keyboard/piano player, but I've started to try to play the Pink Panther theme on my sax from memory. I've been practising/playing it with the music for some time time now. I found it very hard to play from memory, but I think I'm remembering the fingerings rather than the notes/tune.

And like Anglolena said, when I get stuck, I can't start again from the same spot. I have to go right back to the beginning.

I am not a brain surgeon etc. I think it is something to do with the formation of the memory in the head with synapses linking together. The more 'complex' thing _can_ be easier to remember because each element of the memory is linked to more than one other element. If you just have a tune you just have a linear run. If you are singing there are words to go with it so you have two parallel lines which then interlink and it makes it more memorable.

This is similar to mnmnmnmnmnemonics, if you were a computer they would just take up memory space, but for us they make it easier to remember. eg: Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me gives the order of mangitude of different star types (or something like that) which is easy to remember, but the plain strain OBAFGKM is unlikely to be remembered, so to get to the fourth one you are likely to look it up as Fine, rather than going straight to the F. Similarly you are likely to access the tune notes with reference to the chordal structure underneath.

Here's an interesting thing. My two main instruments are violin and piano. I grew up on the Suzuki method for violin and thus did not learn how to read notes for many years. I learned everything by ear and was in book five before I seriously started reading notes. My teacher insisted that pieces be memorised before I was finished with them and I remember doing a concerto competition when I was 13 and being the only one who had the whole thing memorized!

Piano is a different story. I've never felt comfortable on it and even though I have a grade 8 in it I prefer certain kinds of pieces only and am not an all rounder on the instrument at all! Because of that, I have absolutely no retention when it comes to learning pieces on piano. I may be able to give the first chord or note of a piece but beyond that I can't and maybe never will be able to memorize piano music. I can play through a piece with music and look up occasionally but if I totally look away I am lost forever!

In my opinion, I think memorization has a lot to do with ear training. I have a friend who plays piano who has excellent aural skills. If he hears a piece once he can play it back to you perfectly, notes exact. He did the whole of the Messiah that way! I know once I have heard a piece for violin I have a much easier time learning and memorizing it than I do if I learn the piece and have not heard it before to begin with.

[quote name='Teigr' date='May 6 2009, 03:22 PM' post='823639']
[quote name='maggiemay' post='823638' date='May 6 2009, 04:14 PM']
Interesting one Teigr ... I wonder whether the bass line somehow has a bearing on the whole thing? I mean gives some kind of prompt which when it's missing puts the alto and sop parts off their stroke in some way? [/quote]
.............
To be honest, the same thing happens to me with scales. Playing HT and HS seem to be two separate and distinct abilities and I often noticed that while a scale comes really fluently HT, you realise one hand (usu. LH) does not work quite as efficiently as the other and that it is the prevalent hand which sort of pulls ahead and leads the pair. Has anyone noticed this? Not for nothing do ABRSM require HT and HS rendering of scales! I did not use to play scales HS but started to do so some time ago in order to strengthen my LH, which is considerably well "behind" the other in dexterity, force, smoothness, etc. I've also bought Berens' Exercises for the LH, which I'm planning to suggest to my teacher.

Really?!

Next lesson don't let him go home until he tells you how he did it - then tell me how please

And don't forget to pay him for the lesson!!!

I'll ask him again, but I don't think he really knows, and it's certainly no credit to me When he came to me as a beginner he was always good at memorizing, but I painstakingly made him learn to read it, which he can, and thankfully it never squashed the memorization out of him either.
Hope he's not reading this, as he might suggest what Mad Tom said

This is really fascinating

LH - no chance! RH - a few phrases before it peters out. BH - no problems!

I think a significant part of this is muscle memory. I always look at my fingers when I play from memory (I know - bad technique ) but recently I found out that if I know a piece really well, I can play parts of it with my eyes closed. For a less well memorised piece I 'visualise' where my fingers should be.

The aural cues must have a significant role too. Perhaps the brain needs the aural cues from BOTH hands as an aide memoir?

I'm going to try that out by seeing whether I can play longer phrases with my RH by 'internalising' the LH part and get back to you! Hmmmmm........

Surely it all depends on how and why the piece is memorised. If you memorised it 'by accident' of in a 'this finger goes there, then that one goes there...' way, it's probably mainly muscle memory, so taking half of the piece away will completely change how you move as a whole. If you memorised it by photo memory of the score, then you'd probably be more likely to be able to play just one hand.

I think I drive my teacher mad because once I've played things through a few times, I've pretty much memorised it and I only use the sheets as a prompt It's probably going to severely stunt progress in the sight-reading department I can't help it but it's just the easiest way for me and I need to stop taking the shortcut all the time.

I memorised Moonlight Sonata 1st mvt several years ago before going away from playing and can surprisingly still play it all the way through. If someone distracts me, however, I have to either start from the beginning or from one of the "anchor" points of the piece that my fingers remember.

A very interesting discussion.
Some people have no trouble memorising music, others simply can't do it, period. Some people visualise the music, others say it's muscle memory...
I don't know, but I did all my violin exams from memory and played at numerous festivals etc as a child, always playing from memory.. I seem to remember that up to Grade 5 nobody told me that you were actually allowed to play with the music!

On the violin I seem to remember music a whole piece or work at a time, regardless of length. Muscle memory doesn't apparently come into it, nor does formally 'learning' the music as I can remember not only every single piece I've ever learned but also those I've taught others. It just happens, once I can play the piece it's filed in my head. I can also then transpose easily into any key you like, though sometimes it would be technically too difficult to execute. However, ask me to memorise the words of a song or a poem and I find it really really difficult. I'm also useless at names, but good at remembering numbers. I do have perfect pitch.

When I 'listen' to a piece of music in my head, as against in 'real life' I 'hear' all the parts, and could to a certain extent then play pretty much anything on the piano using the correct harmonies, although I'm no great pianist.

I'd be interested to know how others work.

I wish I could say I had even just one of these skills, so I am extremely jealous!!!!

One good thing though, I am really determined to learn to sight read because I know I cannot rely on my memory.

I have a pupil who's very similar to Glass Mountain's. I've had him since he was a beginner, and he's planning to do Grade 8 not this session but next, as there is a lot of musical detail that needs attention, but he could play everything from memory within a fortnight of getting the music - although he's a poor sight reader. Same scenario, in that I'm forever trying to work out how he does it, but he's absolutely no use in providing answers, as he's forever trying to work out why I can't! He also has lots of other Grade 8+ music in his memorised repertoire. One thing I would say about him is that he has a very enquiring mind; he listens very carefully to harmonic progressions that he likes in order to use them for his own compositions, while the likes of me is just trying to memorise notes. I can analyse the progressions if required, but it isn't the first thing my brain wants to do - I like the sound of certain progressions, but what I'm analysing is where to put the stress, which part has melodic interest that should be 'brought out', where the high point of a phrase is - that sort of thing. This pupil will only home in on that sort of musicality once he has a deadline - like a concert or exam - and it's not always easy to persuade him of the importance of it even then. It's notes, harmony and rhythm first to him. What obviously makes a concert pianist is this combined with the musicality bit. Probably a rare comodity...

I am spending tonnes of time doing sight-reading practice. I think it's important early on, as improving your reading gives you the confidence to tackle new pieces. If you'd asked me about 6 months ago, I'd never have thought I'd have a hope in h*ll of getting through some of the stuff I've done recently!

The more time you invest, the bigger the dividends I find using proper music instead of the samples much better, although the "Improve your sight reading" books are very good!

As has been said above - very interesting topic.

I'd just like to add a vote for the "sequence of nerve impulses" idea.

As an aside I love playing from memory as I can then focus more on the music, but although I can memorize and prefer it to the torture of sight reading (and am really pleased that I now have the 1st movement of Moonlight always with me - and me just a grade 4 ) it does take a frustratingly-long time (3 years or so to get the notes and fingering of Moonlight and memorize - but I had technique to learn too).

Anyway - since I was first taught to practice always HT (for which I'm grateful), I've found that it is the totality of the "current state" that triggers the memory of the "next state", i.e. somewhere there seems to be a map of the piece laid out as a sequence of configurations, and if you subtract from the sequence by removing one hand, it becomes really tough if not impossible to play from memory.

For these reasons I much prefer nowadays to approach a new piece HT from the outset, unless really really stuck!

Hmmmm.... I wonder if "memorizers" tend to prefer HT and "sight readers" can do HT or HS equally freely?



Definatelty; I've found even playing a different piano can disturb the memory, and have you ever tried playing from memory on a keyboard with the volume turned off? :-)

Alan

I can both memorise and sightread- which is not to say I find either "easy" just that they are of equal effort and I can do them both. When I memorise I use all of the following:

- how it sounds
- how it feels - so this part is reinforced by playing hands together
- musical analysis - this is reinforced by playing hands separately
- how it looks on the page - also reinforced by playing hands separately

I need to start hands separately to get the fingering right but I also have to then work on hands together for coordination.

So I guess I don't fit anywhere... I can't really think of myself as a "sightreader" or a "memoriser", and I need to practise both hands together and hands separately.

like some others, parts simply "sink into my head" pretty effortlessly. If this was taken away from me I would feel as if I'd lost a sense.

Sometimes in my quartet we decide to play something we've not done for a long time. If I don't have the part with me, I can simply start playing ..... I fudge a few passages and might stop for a couple of bars but just wait till the next moment of musical significance.

When I do this, I get a very pleasurable sensation in my head, like I'm taking my brain for a lovely walk.

Sadly, however, this does not in itself improve my technique which is not that great, so I'm off to practice scales.