I'm thinking about getting a postgrad degree in performance on violin and am looking at various schools in the UK. There doesn't seem to be a lot out there unless you look at the Royal colleges/academies. Most uni's I've looked at don't have the specific degree I'm looking for!

My main question is ... how hard is it for the average violinist to get in to RCM, RAM, Guildhall, Trinity, etc.? I earned a Bachelor's in Music Performance and graduated with honours in the States. I'm currently living and working in Kenya and am playing in the Nairobi orchestra as a first violinist (one of two orchestras in the whole of the African continent) and am also involved in the Kenyan Conservetoire of Music. I teach strings at a British curriculum international school and am using my time here to polish up my audition repertoire.

I've checked out all the sites for the music schools and know what the audition requirements are and know that I am capable of playing everything for all the schools. Most of this stuff I did in my first year of uni! So my question again is, how hard is it to get in to these schools for an average, hard working violinist? What do I need to do to blow the audition panel away?

All help and comments are much appreciated!

I don't think you would have too much trouble, TBH, as all conservatories and universities are really keen to get foreign students as they pay much higher fees, which means more money for the institution.

Sounds cynical but it's true.

Thanks for the input, mcm. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but wouldn't the reputation of the schools go down if they had lots of excellent British musicians in their schools and some rubbish international musicians? Or is that the norm? Or ... is it actually possible for a normal British player (no offense to anyone intended) to get into such a prestigious school? I'm not British. In fact, I'm an American living and working in Kenya so I have a different situation altogether! I actually only know two string players in the whole country who might be better than me. They are both ladies in their 60's who are graduates of the RAM and I actually didn't think they were extraordinary!

From what I've seen, the standard of foreign entrants to uk conservatoires is often higher than that of their British counterparts (for strings, at least). They don't dilute the quality. Quite the opposite.

Thanks for your input Discopants. Does anyone know what the standard of players are in RAM, RCM, etc.? Julliard's requirements are basically that you're a prodigy! That can't be the case for these places, though. Their entrance audition is quite simple. Sometimes that is the problem though ... they make it a simple audition and weed out the bad ones immediately! Most require two contrasting movements of Bach solo Sonata, a major movement from a major concerto and a contrasting piece. Please can I get some more opinions? All help is much appreciated!

I dont know about the postgrad programme. However RAM is considered the Senior Conservatoire in the UK and has exceptionally talented graduates, even the Junior (pre-college) department has some amazing young people. I think you use the word prodigy. (However I could be biased as my daughter attends this conservatoire)

It is difficult to put the standard of performance into words. You are overseas thus unable to attend the many free concerts at the Academy. I can only asure you that I have yet to attend any student concerts at RAM, RCM, Guildhall or Trinity that have not left me feeling astounded at the level of interpretation alongside extraordinary technical skills. On one particular occasion a performance left me in tears it was so beautifully interpreted. I wanted to put the young player in my pocket and take her home with me to play the piece again for me and me alone.

You say that most of the required pieces you played as an undergrad, I am being a Devils Advocate here, my G8, 17 year old daughter can also play these pieces, that doesnt mean she is able to play them to the level of a post grad performance. It is how you interprete and perform at the audition.

Remember the Conservatoire is auditioning you Not the other way around. You are Invited to audition. It is not automatic that every applicant auditions. So its all, for want of a better word, elitist. In addition one Conservatoire can turn you down flat and another can accept you. Your audition is what counts. You have to be good enough for them to accept you. It is a mistake to think it otherwise (in my opinion). Your preparation is essential. If you can take your own accompanist that you have rehearsed with for awhile so much the better. Prepare prepare, prepare. Dont be arrogant and think you have done it all, if thats the case then just what are you applying there for?

You can also contact the Conservatoire directly. You will find that most applicants try to have a consultation lesson with a relevant conservatiore professor, prior to application. If you can do that then it will probably help with your queries on standards required.

Re: mcm comments on fees and overseas students, please take that with a pinch of salt. No conservatoire wants their standards to fall and thus loose their rankings! They do not take overseas students just for the money. It is a myth that persists in all academic institutions.

Thanks for the input, Ayshah. Is there any chance I could get in touch with you further about this since you actually have someone going to one of the Academy's, or is there anyone you can recommend? Is the 17 year old grade 8 you mentioned above the one attending?

Is there anyone on the forum who can reply who is/has attended any of the Royal Academy's and has some input on their standards?

Thanks again to all who have replied! All help much appreciated!

Karibu

I can see you're in a bit of an information vacuum. Would it help if you had a look for names of current postgrads playing in concerts at the various conservatoires (RCM and RAM both have concert programmes online - assuming you have a good internet connection in Nairobi)? Googling them - many will have websites - might give you some idea of what they are capable of - in terms of repertoire, awards, orchestral/ensemble experience?

Bahati nzuri

Scifi-karis

As a point of contact it might be worth emailing Simon Hewitt-Jones. He was a post-grad student at the RAM a couple of years ago.

Without wanting to sound critical, your experiences of two former RAM students who are in their 60s is not really a good way of knowing the standards required now. Not only will their playing be jaded by age and the years they've probably spent in the music profession, but performing standards have improved dramatically in the last 20 years or so and hence, the standard required to get into a music college has increased dramatically.

Rubbish.

For violin at undergrad, RCM is generally considered to have the most consistently high entrance standards and the highest number of world-class professors. Guildhall seems to come in at number 2 and RAM, RNCM + Trinity are pretty much on a par for teachers, although RAM seems to get a higher overall standard of entrants. For postgrad, there's really no difference because most students go to study specifically with a teacher regardless of the institution (increasingly that's true for undergrad also). As such, for postgrad it's not really an issue. But it's really close-minded and in this case untrue.

Not the BEST conservatoire for x y & z instrument, but in the 'blurb' and speaking to professors from RNCM, Guildhall and RAM, the term they use is SENIOR.

Ranking moves as fast as the tutors move, however I dont want to 'rank' any of them as there is a history on these forums of ranking expanding into sheer unpleasantness. However I wouldnt use a word like "rubbish" I happen to think that some the RCM performances last year were somewhat lacking in feeling and full of technical bravado, whereas the Guildhall undergrads had a better year.

Thats my opinion. Sometimes I am the paying audience listening to undergrads and postgrades perform, and sometimes I am a parent who has put two children through TCM and RAM.

To the original OP Good luck.

So don't say that RAM is "best"...not really helping yourself out there. I think if you visited the conservatoires as a potential student you'd get a very different impression. I also very much doubt that profs elsewhere would openly state that RAM is a better institution, unless they have some specific motivation for doing so.


To the OP:
Come and visit the UK schools if you can, and I think the most important thing is to try and take a lesson with as many profs as you can at a number of schools, preferably on a regular working day at the school. That's the best way to get an accurate idea about each institution. You might find that you really like one of the cities, some people for example get especially drawn to the smaller cities like Glasgow or Manchester, or that you prefer a less centrally located school like Trinity, or a very central one like RNCM. There's a limit to the usefulness of speaking to current students, because (with a few exceptions) they all tend to enjoy their time at college and will say as much.

This is slightly off topic, but what can you all tell me about studying piano at a UK music college? By this I mean which is regarded to be the "best" for teaching, and which has the best facilities for a pianist, or are they all roughly the same? I know that all the conservatoires are about the same standard, but does one college stand out for Piano?

I've got to decide this year whether i'm going to bother applying for music college, and will need to start preparation after christmas (I'm planning ahead, but i'm a control freak and can't bear to not know what i'm doing for the next 50 years or so!). My piano teacher says i've got the talent and potential to get into a music college (I think otherwise!), and I'd like to go into music when I leave college/university, so i'm doing research now to know what i'm on about etc...

Any thoughts?

Jacob.

Hey Jacob,
I would really strongly suggest that you go and take a couple of lessons even at this early stage in the process. It might not be a fun experience if the professors you go to say you aren't at the level they would expect or that you have a lot of work to do, but you'll be able to find out what areas you need to work on most (perhaps certain techniques that you haven't covered, or interpretational ideas) and then perhaps in 6/9 months you can go back to one or two of the teachers, so they can see how you work and progress in that timeframe, and ask for more advice.
I did this and my first lesson was brutal to say the least (I was told not to bother applying as I would never get into a music college), but led in a rather roundabout way to my acceptance in the class of my first choice of teacher for college. You can make some useful contacts this way also, and teachers may be willing to recommend colleagues who might be a good match for you, and which college you might find to be most suitable.
Also, I wouldn't get too into which college has the best reputation because my friends starting music college as pianists this year all picked their college by where they will get the most performance opportunities (so for most that meant turning down more prestigious colleges for scholarships elsewhere), I guess because it's hard for pianists to get much chamber music and solo playing.

Thanks to all again for your comments. Thanks to AmandaL for the site. Will check this guy out! Asante sana to Listener! Where are you from?

Another question! Have any of you gone through an audition with these schools? What was it like? Did you have a lesson with the teacher beforehand? I'd be most grateful to the string players for their responses but any response would be great!

I have a friend who goes to Guildhall and is doing a postgrad on clarinet. She is by no means a prodigy but is extremely talented. She told me she wasn't the best out of all the clarinets that auditioned but they took her in after she had a lesson with the clarinet teacher and he saw that she responded better to the comments he made during the lesson than the others who were technically better. In other words, she had more potential to change and be willing to accept the change than the others!

Umm where did I say "best"??? And yes several profs have said to me that RAM is considered the 'Senior' Conservatoire in the UK. and yes those professors are also on the 'circuit' of giving masterclasses at all the Conservatoires.

For 30+ years I have been going to student concerts at the London conservatoires since the first day I discovered you could walk in and listen to xx tutor's pupils for free in the London Conservatoires. A cheap way to hear the future talent. Over the years I have had many conversations with many tutors who had grown accustomed to seeing me and I became a 'Friend' for TCM and RAM. Then my two children audtioned for ALL conservatoires, bar Scotland. So I stand by the point that the 'rankings' change continuously.

Further a student can really want to study with Prof x at RXXX, but not be accepted there so he or she gets into RYYY and swears that that was the original place they wanted to go to all along

I stand by my point that a consultation lesson would be a bonus and that a potential student should try to attend as many of the student concert at the Conservatoires.

bohemian - Hope you enjoy your time at TCM my daughter went there when it was in central London, then did her postgrad at RAM. However the other daughter is going to the USA to further her music as she doesnt think the Conservatoires here have what she wants. Its all so individual

Scifi-karis, I'm a home-grown Brit, I'm afraid, but lived in Limuru through the 1980s. Magic place - rolling tea country, Kili on a clear day. Africa stays with you.

So! Ageism is alive and well on this forum as well as in the conservatoires, competitions, concert halls and recording studios of the classical music world.

To the OP. I cannot see what you are worried about. If you are already good enough to play first violin in a professional orchestra then you are good enough to pass the audition for all but the tiny handful of the most prestigious conservatoires.

Thanks, Bohemian!

The idea to go and do a couple of lessons sounds like a very good idea, but the one thing that worries me about that is that i'm worried i'd just have a complete confidence drop if they're anything like what they were to you the first time. To be honest, I don't think i'm a very good pianist, I know i'm fairly good, but there are so many other brilliant pianists out there who are much better than me. I know my piano teacher has assured me I would stand a good chance of getting in, but I still have my doubts, and obviously, just because my piano teacher said I'd get in, doesnt necessarily mean i'll get in!

I haven't done much research into which teachers I would prefer, because thats rather early (or isn't it?), but I know of one or two teachers who I would be keen to work with, should I get in.

I'm not really going to fuss about which music college I would prefer, i'll go to any that let me in! I am rather fond of the RNCM, because I know the area well, and Manchester isn't as big as London, but is still a major city for music.

Thanks again for the advice!

Jacob.

Although the Nairobi orchestra is one of only two professional orchestras in all of the African continent, it has a long way to go before claiming to be a professional orchestra! You play on a voluntary basis and the repetoire I would say is hardly difficult. The most recent program included a Mozart flute/harp concerto, Dvorak's symphony no. 7, and Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker ballet suite. I never go for rehearsals as I live four hours away, but I come in for the dress rehearsals and weekend performances. The concertmistress is one of the older RAM graduates I talked about earlier and is quite a picky lady! I am good enough to come in and sight read the music and get by, so I guess that's all I have to say about my abilities with this orchestra!

You have to deal with what you can in Africa. You really don't realise what you miss until it's gone! I had a GOOD orchestra in uni. Almost what I would consider a professional standard. I worked my butt off for that orchestra ... sort of. I never was a good practicer and always got by on talent alone, which isn't a good thing if you aren't a prodigy, I guess?

I'm not sure if this will help anyone in diagnosing me, but for my senior recital in uni I performed Vitale's Chaconne, Bach's solo Sonata in G minor (mvt 1 and 4) two movement's from the Bruch Violin Concerto in G minor, Sarasate's Zigeunerwiesn (easily the hardest one!), a Paganini Caprice (g minor, #16), Faure Sonata in A major (1st mvt) and a Kodaly duo with a cello friend.

I'm starting to think about visiting the UK next summer on my way back home to the US for a visit. I'll try and arrange to have lessons/consultations, etc. with the schools. I guess I'm in the same boat as a lot of you! I would be so happy to get into RAM, RCM, etc. ANY of those schools! I just am not sure if I'm good enough. I can play the music, but do I have that special something that they are looking for? How can I tell? Maybe I won't be able to tell until I audition and they say that I'm rubbish?

I don't know where you studied in the US, but I imagine that if you look and see which American conservatories places like RAM, RCM etc have student exchanges with you'll be able to get an idea of the likely standard.

I think that at least one of RAM/RCM has an exchange with Eastman - students go both ways, which implies that both the American and British music schools think that standards for tuition are in the same ballpark.

I'm auditioning for British Conservatoires at the moment, and am british. Here's the order i've heard

1) Royal College and Royal Academy

2) Royal Northern and Guildhall

3) Trinity

4) Birmingham Conservatoire



To get into ANY you must be talented, and very good, and i'm sure you are. More so at postgrad.

To get into a postgrad at the royal college or academy, you need to be outstanding, really outstanding, you need to be able to play a late romantic concerto, immaculately.

to get into RNCM or Guildhall, it's not far off that, and you do need to be fantastic!

to get into the others, you must still be very good, audition very well and work very hard!

I think the american equivelents are the Boston Conservatoire and New England Conservatory (I know, because i've been to them!)


However, i'm sure you can do it! So good luck!

And yes, the Royal Academy really is not far off Julliard, the requirements arent' high, but they expect an almost flawless standard, as they offer VERY VERY FEW places, sometimes 5 or less violinists!!

Don't forget, Maxim Vengerov, Anne-Sophie Mutter and Tasmin Little teach there!

Tom x

I can only say that if you pbviolin on youtube

watch this, this is someone who got a straight unconditional from all three that she applied for: Guildhall, RCM, RAM for the undergraduate course. It may help you to see where you stand. No previous consultation lessons or anything like that either.

Disclaimer: not related to her in anyway at all.

I think all the pieces are deceptively simple, and that is where you can weed out the merely good from the exciting ones I guess.

The Guildhall audition description for winds says that all people who make it to the second round are given a group workshop, so teachers can actually work with the students. So your friend's experience wasn't singular, thats the way they choose.

Don't know if this helps anyone at all. Went to a Masterclass last Saturday with one of the senior teachers from local Conservatoire.

He was very hot on connecting with the audience. He also implied that he would expect more if you had attended specialist music school.

One of the major things they are looking for in his opinion is potential.

Good luck to everyone taking auditions.