Hi, this is my first post on this forum although I have looked at it to answer some other questions before. I wondered if anyone could give me some advice on this query: My 11 yr old son played in a music festival at the weekend that was being adjudicated by a violin tutor from the Junior Academy at RAM.

After his ensemble had finished (they came 2nd) she approached us, wanting to know who his violin teacher was. She also said that she would like him to go and play for her at the academy, to look her up on the RAM website and arrange an appointment for her to hear him. All this was said in a quick conversation between her judging commitments. Other than my son, we are a totally non-musical family and have no idea what she expects of him. Is it likely that she just wants to give him some hints - she described him as a very fine fiddle player; or does she mean that we should arrange an audition as an application to the junior academy?

We have never really considered anything like that, he is a good violinist and people always remark on his playing but I don't think he is anything special (other than to his family obviously!) - loads of children seem to be be good at playing instruments. He currently attends a local music centre on Sats and is very happy there. I did look her up and she is genuinely a tutor! I am slightly wary because I don't want to raise my son's expectations, we certainly couldn't afford RAM fees. Anyway, any pointers as to what to expect would be greatly received

To be honest, I haven't got a clue. Perhaps you could ring her, out of earshot of your son, and have a word with her to see what she has in mind. Best wishes

Why do they do this sort of thing? I know how confused you are feeling right now having had a similar approach earlier in the year, to our daughter. In our case it was a garbled phone call from the child. It wasn't Junior Conservertoire but a bit heavier (I'm tactfully not saying). I did sus it out a bit more and decided I didn't want to take it further. If your son really is good there will be lots of opportunities along the way.

I would ring and speak with her and ask what she was suggesting exactly. If it's not what you want you've not lost anything by finding out more.

There is funding available for places like RAM if you go down that route.

I do realise that a place at a college can offer a great opportunity, and I may be barking up completely the wrong tree here, but I have always thought it was unethical for one teacher to attempt to poach another's student.

Is this not what it amounts to - or have I missed something ?

Looking at the OP, I do not think this is a case of 'poaching' a student. Surely most regular teachers would be delighted to know that a professor from the Junior department of a Conservatoire had taken an interest in their pupil's music skills as this would gives them some kudos also

When my eldest was approached, her then teacher was extremely hands on in preparing her for the audition to the junior conservatoire, to the point of phoning me reguarly to check if the acceptance letter had arrived. The same again with my youngest. All the application forms ask for the name of the current teacher and also a reference on the suitability of the child to benefit from the teaching at a junior conservatoire so there is nothing underhand.

You can attend the audition and if you dont want to take it up then that is your perogative.

Yes bursaries are available and are based on family income.

Well this is what I was slightly concerned about - that maybe she was just touting for business. My son is very happy with his current teacher, her slightly mad teaching style suits him and we would not want to change that even if he went to a junior academy. If that was all the tutor was looking for then it would be a waste of time. However, if it was some other playing experience, then my son would jump at the chance to play with other focused musicians. Does that ever happen?

I really just wanted to be prepared before I contacted her, so I wasn't suddenly surprised (or disappointed!). To be honest, I have no experience of this sort of thing. I don't even really know what the academy could offer that would make it worthwhile for my son but there was something about him that interested her. She had already personally praised him before approaching me and was very definate that I should contact her. We won't be rushing into anything - it's SATS week in our house at the moment so it's not a time to be making decisions...we are just striving for normality right now!

I hardly think that a RAM professor would be "touting for business" she would more likely be turning most of them away.

You can do a 'search' for Junior conservatoires, as this has come up regularly on these forums. If you do have any direct questions then many here will try to help.

My youngest (17) is at junior RAM, having moved from a Saturday Music Centre. Just some of the benefits are: musicianship of a much higher calibre, performing opportunites & masterclasses that she would not have had, excellent tuition and being with like minded students.

You dont Have to take up the offer.

Perhaps because they've spotted musical talent and enthusiasm, and think the child may benefit from instrumental and ensemble experience with some of the finest tutors in the country.

They also unsettle parents by giving them half a tale.

[quote name='Ayshah' date='May 11 2009, 07:41 PM' post='825265']
[quote name='soapbox' post='825256' date='May 11 2009, 08:14 PM']
Well this is what I was slightly concerned about - that maybe she was just touting for business. My son is very happy with his current teacher, her slightly mad teaching style suits him and we would not want to change that even if he went to a junior academy. If that was all the tutor was looking for then it would be a waste of time. However, if it was some other playing experience, then my son would jump at the chance to play with other focused musicians. Does that ever happen?

[/quote]
I hardly think that a RAM professor would be "touting for business" she would more likely be turning most of them away.

Good point! I told you I was very inexperienced I have now had time to look at the junior acad on the RAM site and it does look incredible. My son is keen to just go and see what happens. I know that he would love to play with other young people who enjoy music and do not find practicing a chore (all the time - it obviously is sometimes). I think that I was just un-nerved by her very direct approach and instinctively felt protective and a little bit anxious.

Thankyou for your response.

Your experience may well have been different, but in this case, as the OP stated, "All this was said in a quick conversation between her judging commitments."

It was very similar in some respects. I do think though the op's was a more straight forward encounter.

It sounds to me like the tutor may have been suggesting a consultation lesson. This is quite a common occurrence, although I am not sure how common the direct approach is. It would be a chance to have a detailed lesson, assessment and feedback from a tutor at that level, and in older students i.e. A level or undergraduate, it's a common thing as perhaps a prelude to making an application to the conservatoire for full time study. For example, at the school where I teach, I am aware of one student, currently lower 6th form, who has had a few consultation lessons over the last year with a tutor at a London conservatoire. I think for him the idea was that it gave the tutor a chance to get to know him a little and see him "in action" a bit more than a quick audition. This student will be applying for undergrad courses there next year.

I don't think from your description that the tutor was suggesting much more than a one off lesson, but if your child is keen to apply for a place at the Junior department, a consultion lesson would be a good chance to get good feedback about their chances, also some hints on what and how to prepare for an audition, and may give a little head start on other candidates as he will then be known to one of the tutors. Much as we like to think things are all fair and equal with auditions etc, if they know that someone with a good talent is on the audition list, they will look out for them, I think it would give him an advantage over "unknown" candidates.

I don't think a one off lesson would mean you breaking off lessons with your son's current tutor, why don't you discuss it with her, and see what she thinks. But at the end of the day, if you and your son are happy with her, and with his progress, you don't need to feel obliged to change the status quo. On the other hand, I think it sounds more like your son has been "talent spotted" rather than "touted for business", and you have nothing to lose by exploring the options. As a teacher, if this had happened to one of my students, as long as the family were open and honest with me, I would support them all the way, it could be a wonderful opportunity.

Thankyou so much for your response. You have made it all much clearer. It is difficult as parents with no musical experience to know what is going on sometimes and what would be the right thing to do. We did not know that there was an option of consultation lessons but now it seems likely that that was what she was offering. That makes it all less scary and imposing.

My son had his violin lesson last night and I mentioned it to his teacher. She was very pleased and encouraged him to go and play for the tutor. Her take on it was that the worst that could happen would be nothing! And the best could be a wonderful opportunity... In any case, as you point out, he would be known to a tutor there if he did ever decide to audition which could possibly help him.

My son is not interested in the primary academy at RAM, he is keen to get into the senior orchestra at his Saturday music centre this next year and maybe consider the junior academy the following year, so a consultation lesson would be perfect right now.

Thanks to everyone for their responses and advice!

I agree the term 'talent spotted' is more appropriate than 'touting for business'

I would also suggest that you attend an Open Day so that you and your son can get a feel of the place. You will be able to observe the classes, the choir, ensembles and the junior orchestra.

My daughter was at the RAM building for an audition for another organisation that were using the facilities to conduct the audition. Whist there we were approached and encouraged to attend to an open day and to apply to the junior RAM. Because our older daughter had attended junior Trinity we had a pretty good idea of how it all worked so we took the plunge.

Before she went there my daughter was convinced it was full of 'snobs' and 'amazingly brilliant players' and the staff wouldnt look/listen to a grungy moody teenager.

Now on Open Days she always volunteers to show prospective parents and children around, reassuring them that its a friendly place, with great music making opportunities. and yes some of the players are 'amazing', but there are no egos, everyone supports each other and the staff are 'ace'

Well said, Aysha (congrats to yr daughter on amazing result posted on another thread - that's what's known as a good all-round distinction).

Also a comment on Minuet3's suggestion that 'known' candidates might have an edge - they might, I don't know, but don't let that put anyone off auditioning because they're not known. e.g. I heard a year or so back of a Junior conservatoire turning down a good pupil from their own Primary department because he didn't come up to scratch in his Junior audition. Equally, my daughter was an outsider, auditioning as the questionable jam in a sandwich between two NYO players the same age and younger (they got in too, I hasten to add - she nearly died of fright when she heard them warming up).

Soapbox, you're clearly a grounded person who makes up your own mind; good luck to you and your son in making the best choice for him

Thank you

Just a quick update. My son did go and play for the tutor. It was all very informal. She made some very helpful and insightful comments about his playing and was incredibly encouraging. She was very keen for him to apply for the Academy next year but was also very forthright that she would like to teach him both there (when he goes) and now in the lead up to him applying. This did not seem to be because he was being badly taught now, although there were inevitably some things that she would do differently, rather it seemed that she would just really like the opportunity to teach him. Which sort of begs the question - when is 'talent spotting' actually just 'poaching'? Or is it just open to interpretation?

Nevertheless, we are obviously very flattered on our son's behalf and it has been a tremendous confidence boost for him (he gets very despondent sometimes when the sound that he makes does not match the sound that he wants to make) but we have decided to stick with his current teacher. We were not thinking of changing before this happened and they work well together so I am reluctant to change that. We all liked the tutor and in different circumstances would have jumped at that opportunity. I am hopeful though that he will have her as a teacher at some point. He's only 11 - surely there is no rush?!

The great thing is that it has focused my son's mind and made him realise that he can dare to hope to attend a junior department somewhere. We are going to go to the open days this year and he will maybe think about applying for next year. He is doing the NCO under 12s this year and is now feeling more confident about the summer course, which is brilliant. We are also going to keep in contact with the tutor and will hopefully have some consultation lessons before he auditions - if he applies for a junior department.

Thankyou everyone for your responses and PMs. It was all very useful and supportive. I think that we have made the right decisions for us, so we are very grateful for all your advice.

Thanks for the update. All the very best to you and your son.

It's not always easy to get the best violin teachers, so do consider very carefully whether you want your son to turn down this opportunity. He is probably more likely to get into the junior conservatoire with the tutor teaching him, as she will know what they are looking for. On the other hand, he may get in anyway and your current teacher is almost certainly cheaper!

A lot depends on whether he might want a career in music, and of course it's too early to tell that yet, but I expect you will want to keep as many avenues open as possible. I hope he really enjoys the summer course.

Thank you for the update. If your son does come to jRAM in the next couple ofyears I will look out for you. In the meanwhile I am sure he will have a brilliant summer at NCO

What a brilliant confidence booster for your son All the best to him and his playing - keep us posted on his progress

I think "It's usually extremely difficult to get the best violin teachers..." would be nearer the mark.
On a cautionary note, going to a JD does not guarantee you're going to get a top-notch teacher, unfortunately. If your son ends up going, I would recommend doing a bit of research..........