Hey,

Just wondered how you can tell which is Haydn and which is Mozart? Is there any ways other than just knowing the piece is composed by Haydn/Mozart?

Thanks

x-music-fairy-x

Yeah. Look on the CD label!

lol other than the CD label?

I was listening to a piece on Classic FM this morning and assumed it to be Mozart - only to discover how wrong I was when the announcer said it was Haydn!

I don't think an examiner would be surprised if you confused the two - or have you another reason for wanting to know?

Hey,



Well I do have a music exam tomorrow on classical but I was just wondering as I was listening to a piece of music on the radio like you and thought it was Mozart but it was Haydn!! was very shocked and just wondered if there was a way to tell them apart...

Ok, then, listen to the announcer!

lol I guess that would be easier than finding the CD case!

Hmm, I'm going to give a really annoying answer saying that I normally can tell them apart, but that since I haven't sat down and worked out why they sound different I can't really say. But I might throw some vague clues.

Whenever I'm doing the spot-the-composer game, I'm always listening out for fingerprints - those little things that give away the probable identity of the culprit. A couple of Haydn's fingerprints are a 'playfulness' that can make Mozart's humour seem blunt, and his "what to you think is going to happen next?" type of writing, a couple of examples being the 99th Symphony last movement and the 'Joke' string quartet last movement. Though these are obvious examples, this frequent and pervasive "leading the listener on .... ha, got you!!" style is not at all like Mozart.

I'm sure if you sat down and analysed scores, it would be possible to isolate more specific harmonic and melodic fingerprints, but I'll hand you over to an expert for that.

Here's a book review, however, that says "In light of their shared musical language and aesthetic understanding, what, exactly, makes Haydn's music so palpably different from Mozart's? Every serious musician and music lover is keenly aware of the unmistakable individuality of these two composers. Yet a fully comprehensive attempt to identify its source and to account for it has never before been undertaken." Interesting, eh?

Maybe it was the same piece? I agree with briantrumpet that it's usually quite easy to tell the two composers apart, but in the small extract I heard this morning, it wasn't.

I usually find it quite easy to tell them apart, on the basis of whether I like it or not - generally I enjoy Mozart's music, but can't bear Haydn. I've wondered about this for some time: since they're so similar, why would I like one and not the other? I've come to the conclusion that it's to do with use of melody. I am a melody person and Mozart's music on the whole (and of course it is a generalisation) seems to have more interesting, wide-ranging melodies, whereas Haydn's I consider to be more like nursery rhymes. People who love Haydn, on the other hand, have waxed lyrical about his continual thematic invention, use of motifs etc. They don't tend to mention beautiful tunes.

Mozart doesn't always have good melodies, and occasionally Haydn does, and at those times I am more likely to be confused about which one has written it. Perhaps the piece music fairy was listening to was one of those occasions when Haydn went for more of a melody?

When you have listened to enough of their music, then when you come across a new piece you can just tell - but I have no idea how the mind works it out, any more than I know how it recognizes the blurred outline of a friend on the other side of the street, when I am not wearing my glasses.

It does take a lot of practice. I love them both and have listened to a lot of their music, but I wouldn't bet my life savings on my ability to guess which of them an unknown piece was by.

According to some notes I was given for the OU's A214 course:

"Haydn more interested in rhythm, Mozart in melody (melodies often longer); Mozart more chromatic in his melodies, but with a v firm sense of key overall; Haydn sometimes chromatically extreme, even wayward, in his harmonies;
THUS
Haydn more dramatic, Mozart more lyrical.
BUT
many exceptions to all this, e.g. lyrical melodies in H's slow movements; H's late symphonies (from 1780's onwards) influenced by M."

Certainly Haydn wrote plenty of gorgeous melodies - I can't think of one that reminds me of a nursery rhyme! - but they didn't come to him (or anyone else, for that matter) quite as naturally as they did to Mozart. A further point (probably related) is that Haydn sometimes uses less thematic material in a movement than Mozart would, but makes each theme work harder. If you like tunes you can regard this as a limitation, but personally I find it makes for a more satisfying whole.

Mozart thought Haydn was terrific, too. And vice versa.

Like a couple of other posters, I can usually tell Haydn and Mozart apart but can't put my finger on exactly what it is that distinguishes them. Use of particular chord progressions (although I couldn't say what) often seems to be a part of Mozart's individual "voice". If it's an orchestral piece, the instrumentation will also help. I don't know a great deal about Haydn in this respect, but Mozart uses horns and clarinets more heavily than other composers of this period.

However, all that I've mentioned would be easy to copy if you knew what you were aiming for. Indeed when playing the guess-the-composer name, I have on numerous occasions guessed Mozart and then it turned out to be Hummel or early Beethoven. Oops.

Rule of thumb. If there are clarinets it's probably Mozart. Like all rules of thumb, take with a pinch of salt.

Mozart tends to use more accented appoggiaturas in the melody and is very fond of interrupted cadences. In their piano music, Haydn tends to have a lower texture than Mozart and the melodies are often more angular. I would also agree with the observation that Mozart's music is generally more lyrical and melody-driven.

Actually, the only nursery rhyme bit I can think of is the "Vous dirai-je, maman" variations - which are by Mozart!

Henry Kelly on Classic XX used to say

'It's Haydn if you can sing 'Are you the O'Grady who runs this hotel' to the melody'

Unfortunately, this fits with the Mozart Horn Concerto theme too...

Thank you for all the replies....think I got a Haydn in the exam well

I guess I will have to wait a few years before I can tell them imediately apart...tend to be more of a Mozart fan myself, so maybe I should listen to more Haydn then it might make sense I also thought Mozart melodies are very catchy as in you hear it once you hear for a long time afterwards whereas Haydn I have to listen to the melody a few times before I can here it still maybe thats just me

Thanks

x-music-fairy

- because very late Haydn may well have clarinets in it.

There are a few more differences that might help.

Mozart wrote in some genres that Haydn did not and vice versa:

Mozart wrote string quintets (2 vn, 2 va, vc), piano quartets (p, vn, va, vc), a quintet with clarinet and strings (often played) and another with horn and strings (much less frequently played), concertos for clarinet, for bassoon, for flute, for oboe, for flute and harp together and for violin and viola together; I know of nothing by Haydn for these combinations.

Haydn wrote over 120 trios for baryton (a rare string instrument), va and bass, eight notturnos for two lire organizzate with small orchestra (clarinets, horns and strings), a trumpet concerto and a sinfonia concertante for oboe, bassoon, violin and 'cello with orchestra; one can have fair confidence that Mozart never wrote for any of these combinations.

Both wrote symphonies, but Haydn many more, of high quality throughout, and of Mozart's c. 45*, the early ones are student works, so that rather few (25 in g minor, 29 in A, 31 in D, 34 in C, 35 in D, 36 in C, 38 in D, 39 in Eb, 40 in G minor and 41 in C) dominate. Haydn used clarinets in some of his late symphonies.

* Some are unnumbered; also there are gaps in the numbering, I believe because others, once attributed to M., have turned out to be by someone else.

Both wrote keyboard concertos, Haydn rather few, for harpsichord, and rarely played, Mozart a nominal 27, of which all from number 12 (1782) are played regularly. The later ones, especially, are characterised by outstanding use of the horns and woodwind.

Both wrote operas, but Haydn's are with inferior libretti and are rarely performed; Mozart's late operas (eight out of the total of 15) remain in the contemporary repertoire and are very highly regarded.

I know I have been known to hear a new piece of music and guess it was Haydn when it turned out to be Mozart, and vice versa. Fortunately, nothing serious has ever followed this error, so I regard it as part of the wonder of exploration in music, rather than a problem.

I think Haydn tends to be slightly more exotic with his modulation so if the music goes to a key that is slightly unexpected then it is perhaps more likely to be haydn. In fact I was reading the Alfred Einstein book on Mozart and there's a bit which says that if you ignore the recitatives in Mozart's Don Giovanni and work out the intervals from start to finish using unequal temperament then it ends on the exact same D in terms of Hz as it begins.

Haydn always seems a bit pompous to me, whilst Mozart always seems a lot more lyrical (or as lyrical as Classical music can be...!!)

Romantic music is more my thing

To me Mozart always sounds more 'operatic', whatever the music. I can't put it any better than that. After years of listening to both Haydn and Mozart, and particularly Mozart's operas, I find I can tell them apart pretty reliably.

I know what you mean, but I'd have put it dirfferently. Say "more stately". I think Haydn was far from being pompous.

I agree.

Mozart tugs at my heartstrings...Haydn doesn't...

I can usually tell the difference in piano music, and I think this helps define why. With regard to the last sentence of Czerny's - I'd have described it that Haydn is more 'bitty'.

Now, this is completely off the wall .... but I think one can tell that Haydn had an inner force - a religious force....? Something strongly positive in his musical attitude...? Maybe it comes from the texture in his harmonies? It's sort of the same thing as what somebody described as his playfulnesss....

I really don't quite know what I'm trying to define, but there is something there that is singularly Haydn.

There's an hour of Haydn this Sat, 9.00pm BBC2 - Joseph Haydn: the Celebrity. That's if we get to hear any actual music without voice overs telling us how wonderful it all is. Sadly, Charles Hazlewood seems quite incapable of taking a back seat and letting the music speak for itself.

i will have to watch that thanks for telling me same they ruin the music by doing that

Haydn comes across as very grounded, solid, seems to me.

I listen to Haydn's best works with delight and satisfaction, Mozart's* with awe.

* E.g. the G minor string quintet, the C minor Serenade (especially the double inverted canon in the Trio), the "farewell" quintet from "Cosi fan tutte", "Ave Verum Corpus" (a present to a helpful friend), the Recordare from the Requiem etc.

Hmm, yes. I was disappointed by the Purcell programme. Mr Hazlewood does like to be in front of the camera and musicians. The most ridiculous scene was when he was 'conducting' two singers and a cellist. I did have a nice moment then though, as I had done 'The Trumpet Shall Sound' with the bass (Stuart Young) two days earlier.

Now back to Moazrt & Haydn...

Haydn has a strong musical personality - especially in his keyboard sonatas.

If you are not familiar with the actual compositions it is harder to tell Mozart and J C Bach apart.