As I live about 10m from the nearest Catholic church, I fear if I asked that sort of question, they'd ask me why I wasn't going there!

I always find CU bating a bit mean. Individually, they're usually lovely people. Its the group en masse that bothers me. Plus, the cake is always good.

As this thread is in danger of getting a little negative, I thought I share something that always cheers me up when the 'organised' aspect of Christianity gets me down.

http://www.ship-of-fools.com/

And of particular relevence to this thread, their 'Mystery Worshipper' section:

http://www.ship-of-fools.com/mystery/index.html

Although the 'church reviews' are all intended to be humourous, most people do have something positive to say about the services they attended. The reviews also suggest that many churches are fairly well attended, and that not all church music is dire!

Stay for drinks (even briefly) after the service. Play around a bit and see if they notice: slip twinkle twinkle or the teddy bear's picnic into the voluntary or some such.

I think this is another of those instances where the majority of us will look at that and go, 'yeah, right!'
What I mean is that for the average church (congregation probably less than 50, or frequently about half that), any interest in music needs to be nutured and developed and looked after as its a fairly rare commodity that shouldn't be dismissed until they are independently competent. OK, it might need extra work to rearrange things based on the limitations of those putting themselves forward, but that's fine.

A good way to make them be quiet (at least for a couple of minutes) is to stop abruptly and then they tend to all shut up and wonder why the muzack has stopped and wonder if something is about to happen.

Yes, I can vouch for this. Even better if you build up gradually to something like full organ before you stop - the hubbub will build too and the contrast is even more embarrassing.

The answer being: papal infallibility and communion in one kind.


I think its allowed if you do it single handedly with a group of them - you can't be accused of ganging up on them.
Yours give out cake? I've only ever had doughnuts from them!

Trouble is they're only embarrassed for about 5 seconds, then it all starts again. They never take the hint.

Yes, indeed! I always slip a secular tune into my extemporisation whilst the choir receives communion and a number of the congregation always try to work out what it is. It was 'Oh I do like to be beside the seaside' yesterday!


The best way to do this is to build up to a dominant seventh chord on fairly full organ, then hold it for a while. They'll be shouting at the tops of their voices by this time. Then go down to Swell strings. I've never had to do this more than three times with even the most ignorant of wedding congregations before they've got the message!

I don't really care what they do at weddings, at the end of the day I'm being paid for it and in a way it's not as much music as it is a service provided. Although I like to play "I'm getting married in the morning" while people are waiting for it all to start hahaha

Also bear in mind that for about 90-95% of wedding guests the church will be a place rarely visited so it's unsurprising that many feel uncomfortable or don't know how to behave

How did you come by your statistics?

Slightly off topic, but I went to a concert at Holy trinity church in Bracknell that my grandad had organised (he was the vicar) in aid of the tsunami (however you spell it!), and there was a brilliant organist playing a few items and he finished off with a piece that was in the programme as something to do with woods, and He started off and nobody recognised it, and then suddenly he started a trill, and his feet were playing a descending scale, and he burst into the teddy bear's picnic! It was brilliant, but I havent found the music anywhere!

Jacob.

I think a friend of mine might play it. I'll ask him what it is.

You know how people say "a friend of mine", when really it's them but they just don't want to admit it...

Nope, not in this case though....

IMO, one of the most effective ways to quieten the giddy brethren down is to start playing right quietly. I acted as Maestro at a wedding on Saturday and initially started playing with just the 8' flutes. This suddenly made their ears prick up, and they had to discuss the bride's dress the reception beer in a whisper until they gradually had the courage to lapse into full chorus again. I've been known to play proper loud at the end to find the congregation shouting over the top of me. I think organists must have sinned in a previous existance to be like treated...

Religion really is the start of all wars isn't it......

Don't quite see where religion comes into this one.

I think the point being made by 'fatar' is that the difficulties experienced by organists arise from the nature of their religious workplace and that much else in life, including international conflicts, arise from religion, in one form or another.

On the former issue it is certainly true that much unhappiness arises in churches, though not all. I have found working with professional musicians has been much easier than with volunteer choirs. Also, in places where the choirs are professionals the congregation seem to be less troublesome over music. This is my experience which may not be typical.

Barry Williams

I guess that with an amateur choir the mindset is : "I'm giving up my free time to do this and I don't like the way so-and-so is steering this so I'll register my displeasure thus..."

When at work I will do as I'm told. When I'm volunteering I need to be wooed.

I think the difficulties described by the OP were those of forceful personalities imposing their will.
I doubt the founders of the Faith would give a hoot how the music was run. As musicians we care rather a lot.

Personally I like working with non-professional church choirs. 'Man management' and working how to get the best out of a diverse group of people is surely all part of the role of the choir director. Having a pro set up where you don't have to motivate or inspire just because the members are getting ca$h seems a bit of a cop out to me. Perhaps it is the case that organists, as a whole, are rather insular and find it hard to get on with other people -- too many hours spent on their own in dusty lofts, or perhaps that is why they seek the solace of the organ bench in the first place.

The more gregarious, people-oriented types are more of a rarity. This probably explains why organists are always the first to flounce out in high dudgeon when something doesn't go their way. They take it ALL so personally, the poor dears!!

Quite. On odd occasions I have had a choral director boast to me about what a wonderful performance he produced at such-and-such an event with his able bunch of professional or semi-professional singers. Been there, seen it, done it and it is indeed a very enjoyable feeling, but on another level it really isn't such a big deal. When your basic standard comes ready made and all you have to do is to hone the edges, it really doesn't take that much ability. I have infinitely more respect for the person who can take a motley bunch of amateur enthusiasts and turn a sow's ear into a silk purse - that takes real talent. Sorry to veer even further off topic.

To nudge it back a bit, if a church has a professional choir then the governing body must have determined that it will pay in order that a high musical standard shall be a feature of the church. Being thus a matter of policy, I guess it must reduce the scope for dissenting voices in the congregation, who must like it or lump it. I can see the attraction.

Very interesting, and relevant to where we are at the moment.

We have a voluntary choir of - I suppose semi-professionals - for want of a better term. Plus a few paid visitors where the balance needs filling out. Our D o M calls them hired guns.

We tend to call them 'stiffeners'

CHOIR RUDENESS!!

Recently asked to stand in for an organist friend who was taking a well-earned three week holiday .......United Reform Church

The choir ( ) like to go through the hymns on the Friday before the Sunday services......ok, no problem, good idea.

One of the hymns with which I was NOT familiar came with the instructions "rhythmic - quasi Calypso"

It seems they had sung it before, so I half put on my "theatre organist" hat and played through in a "Caribbean" style........as good as the instrument would allow.

There was a loud "ERRR HUMM" from the choir and an aged gent said haughtily "Excuse me, we are not in a dance hall, this is a place of worship!!" accompanied by a few murmurings in apparent agreement.

I mentioned the "Calypso" instruction, to be told that they prefer to sing it slow and with traditional "4 part harmony" which we then did..........with appalling musical results to my ears, satisfaction on their part.

That Sunday, the "choir" sang this as a solo. After the service, several people came up to me to inform me that "Jean" usually put a bit of rhythm to the hymn and HER version was much better.

This sounds rather 'Po' faced musicianship. It smacks of people who sing madrigals and ballets in a choir of thirty or more voices as though it were a Tallis anthem. Yuk!

What would this choir do if they were asked to sing Danckworth's Folk Mass?

Barry Williams

Verily. If there's an imp in church it's guaranteed to be in the choir!