For the last four months I have been teaching a family of 3 (Mother, Father, Daughter). Now, this in itself brings many other topics of dicussion suitable for more threads! However, I just wanted to ask for advice about the Father.

The Mother and the Daughter are flying through the pieces and scale work - the Father is not. When it comes to playing scales he tends to think 'end-game'...i.e he's thinking about the end result (which is playing the scale with correct notes and fingering) rather than how he is doing it. Due to this his hand goes horribly out of shape when he plays....at times the only fingers on the piano are the ones he is supposed to be playing - the rest are in the air.

Each week I am constantly asking him to slow down, to take his time, to check his hand shape after he's played a note - but I don't think he has the patience during the week to practice in this way. When I slow him down in the lesson he does demonstrate that he is able to retain a good hand shape.

Maybe I shouldn't be being so particular about this with an adult learner who, maybe, has less time to practice than others. The fummy thing is that I think playing the piano means more to him and his Wife or Daughter but I'm starting to feel like a stuck record each week and can't think of any other advice to give him.

Any helpful advice, experience or suggestions ?

Give him a piece to learn which is full of chords - with a bit of luck he'll end up with wrist pain and come to his own conclusion that he needs to get his hand position sorted out

(adult beginner - can relate to what you said about playing scales... I found it fun to learn lots of scales and although my hand position wasn't as bad as your student's by any means, it was only when I came to playing chords and got wrist pain that I realised that I had to stop playing scales for fun and play them slowly to get my hand position right. With the help of arpeggios and chords, I'm gradually improving my hand position)

I spent a whole lesson on hand technique at my last lesson and asked my teacher if I could stop learning pieces for a while until I got my hand position right. I found it impossible to correct my position whilst I was also learning new pieces - too much to think about.

Hello,

Maybe try setting a metranome speed for him to play to to get some guidance? It sets a target and it sounds like he would respond well to targets. You can set it slow enough for him to think about finger placement.

Chromatic scales are good because you can get him to 'bunch' the fingers as close as possible to together.

Maybe try wedging something under his hand that he has to hold while doing the scale.

Being an adult learn is hard because you expereince many flustrations- especailly if you are in competition iwth your family!!

Unfortunately setting a tempo just adds to the frustration he faces. I think I've had the tempo down to as low as 45 with him and then he's struggling to come to terms with keeping the beat! Maybe though I could increase the tempo and get him to play a note every 4 beats though...






The odd thing is that when playing his pieces (which are all just hands separate at the moment) that he demonstrates a better hand shape than he does when playing the scales. I can only assume that this is due to him having more to think about when playing a piece.

What kind of pieces have you been playing that are full of chord work ? And what has your teacher got you doing that targets your hand shape that you don't find pain-stakingly dull ?

Ouch! Um.. how about rythms.. you know- the old 'dotted crotchet, quaver' pattern or 'quaver, dotted crotchet'.. then he will be going fast slow fast slow and getting the fingers used to where they should be?

He is obviously concentating lots - is it a real piano or a keyboard he is playing. Perhaps try turning the sound off, or making him wear earphones- that way he will not be able to concentrate on the sound, on the feeling/action.

Think thats all i can think of at the moment.

Cheers Musicsong. It's a real piano they play - but nice idea though. He could always just practice on the table

Welcome to the forums btw

Thanks- I have been watching for years, but only just joined. Its good to be here!

I have just been sat at the computer trying to make my fingers stick up while playing scales!

If you dont go with the headphones idea(!) then try covering up him hands with an open A4 folder or folded card (so the spine of fold is over his knuckles) He cant see and has to go from feel and memory. That might help his 'concentrating fingers' pose. You could always say that if his fingers go up and touch the card/folder then he has to start again or something? Perhaps a bit childish but it sounds like you need something to stop him from focusing so hard on the notes, and relax (diversion therapy ) Now i really am out of ideas!

Good luck!

It was Home on the Range from Michael Aaron's book which brought me to a stop a couple of weeks ago because I ended up with wrist pain and I realised that I was twisting my wrists.

Um, I might be wrong here but I suspect this is what's happened up to now... Teacher thinks I will find hand exercises dull, so gives me pieces to learn each week and encourages me to think about hand position whilst I'm learning pieces, scales, arps etc. I make learning the pieces a priority because I want to go back next time with them "perfect" - but learning it "perfectly" to me means the notes, fingering, rhythm and dynamics, not the hand position (yes, I know ). I also want to play my scales smoothly, confidently, fluently etc, so again I learn the fingering and notes rather than concentrate on the hand position. Hence my reason for asking my teacher if I can spend my practice time doing *nothing else* but hand technique for a while.

In some ways, I feel as if bad hand technique is a bit like any other habit which is bad for you (smoking, over-eating etc) No matter how many times somebody tells you to change your habit, until you feel it "inside", it's very difficult to change. It's only once you've seen the light and *want* to change, that you'll do it. Home on the Range made me see the light




I like this idea - I'll try turning the sound down and see if it makes a difference.

Thanks for that tip, and welcome to the forum

[quote name='skylark' date='May 18 2009, 12:02 PM' post='827513']
[quote name='fatar760' post='827469' date='May 18 2009, 11:01 AM'] [quote name='skylark' post='827463' date='May 18 2009, 10:53 AM']

Um, I might be wrong here but I suspect this is what's happened up to now... Teacher thinks I will find hand exercises dull, so gives me pieces to learn each week and encourages me to think about hand position whilst I'm learning pieces, scales, arps etc. I make learning the pieces a priority because I want to go back next time with them "perfect" - but learning it "perfectly" to me means the notes, fingering, rhythm and dynamics, not the hand position (yes, I know ). I also want to play my scales smoothly, confidently, fluently etc, so again I learn the fingering and notes rather than concentrate on the hand position. Hence my reason for asking my teacher if I can spend my practice time doing *nothing else* but hand technique for a while.

In some ways, I feel as if bad hand technique is a bit like any other habit which is bad for you (smoking, over-eating etc) No matter how many times somebody tells you to change your habit, until you feel it "inside", it's very difficult to change. It's only once you've seen the light and *want* to change, that you'll do it. Home on the Range made me see the light


[/quote]

Well this is what I said about 'end-game'. He's definitely thinking about the end result (just getting notes correct etc) and I've pointed this out to him on a number of occasions. He knows that I won't be asking him to practice any other scales etc until he's mastered the technique of what I'm asking him to do already. This goes for the same with the pieces.

With his pieces he actually shows a better handshape. He is, though, quite far back in the book from his family now and I feel the real problem here is impatience during his practice sessions. Even his family have commented that he is playing scales / pieces too quick but he doesn't listen to them - then I turn up and say the same thing.

When I point these things out to him he agrees with me - and then I turn up the next week and nothing has changed.

I agree that it is his mindset that needs to change towards his practicing - but as a teacher how can I help him see that ?

Is he getting more and more impatient because he sees the gap getting ever wider between him and his family, and in his own way (albeit the wrong way), he's trying to catch up?

Although both he and I have/had a problem with hand technique, I think it's for different reasons - in my case, I failed to recognise the importance of it, whereas in his case, he's not patient enough. If it wasn't for the fact that you said "the funny thing is that I think playing the piano means more to him than his wife or daughter", then I'd wonder if he was cut out for learning an instrument at all because you need a lot of patience to learn an instrument. I don't know what if anything you can do about impatience - it might be a part of his personality and he'll only change that when he's receptive to change, and it doesn't sound as if he is (yet).

In my case, both on piano and clarinet, what has changed my mindset has been some sort of shock. I've mentioned that it was Home on the Range with piano, and with clarinet, it was my G4 result which was a much bigger shock. Up to then, my teacher at the time had told me that my tone needed working on (although to be fair to myself, he didn't specifically tell me *how* to improve it) but it was only when I got a scraped Pass at G4, largely as a result of poor tone, that I realised how serious the problem was.

So although my first post may have sounded a little facetious, playing lots of chords and getting wrist pain was the shock I needed to change my mindset and improve my hand technique, so maybe if you can think of a something similar which will shock him into realising that he has to slow down and practise more effectively?

Incidentally, I know from other aspects of my life that I learn better from the written word rather than the spoken word, and that goes for music too. I can recommend Philip Johnson's book "The Practice Revolution" which might bring home to him that his method of practice is not going to get him where he wants to be.

Good luck with him, I do feel for you!

I'm not a teacher, but just parroting advice I've heard other teachers say about competing siblings - but how about starting him on a different book? If he's competing with his family, not wanting to fall behind, maybe having a different book would make it more difficult for him to draw comparisons, and then he'd be less impatient, and more willing to take things a bit slowly. I guess you'd have to sell it to him somehow though, or, as an adult, he could feel like he's being patronised.

You're both pointing to the same thing here - which is that I may need to simply change direction with this guy so that a) he's not competing with his fmaily (maybe a cause for the impatience) and b) to make him realise how having a bad hand shape can affect his playing.

Thanks for the tips. I have a book about practicing that I generally go by. Maybe I should photocopy a bit of it for him to read, then at least he can see where I'm coming from a bit more.

He doesn't come across as an impatient person mind. He's generally calm, quiet, softly spoken and gentle. He generally agrees with with everything I say to him - but some of it just isn't sinking in. Maybe a shock tactic would work.

Open to suggestions

Shock tactic.. tell him you'll chop off any fingers that arent touching the keys with the tips.....
Oh no.. hang on...

Sorry, couldnt resist!!

Sounds like he is very conscienscious. You'll probably fine that one day it will all sink in and click together and be perfect.

You say pieces are fine, just not the scales, maybe fine some pieces with more scale passages.

Just out of curiosity does he read the scales from music? Maybe that would help or put him off?


Disclaimer: I do not condone finger chopping off or any sort of mutilation in lessons (or out side of lessons). I take no responsibility from what you may do as a result of this comment. Please do not harm your pupils- it might harm your career.

I keep on threatening to have a row of spikes on the edge of the piano to catch the trailing thumbs (this also appears to be an issue with adult beginners)

He plays the scales from memory.

I think having his wife and daughter doing better than him is possibly torture enough for him

Yaaaaayyyy!

Well I REALLY don't know how but today I turned up at the students house and his hand shape was perfect - he was like a different player. A wonderful demonstration of control and stillness in his hand shape...yaayyy


When I asked him how he did it he simply said that he'd unlearnt what he'd done and then took his time to re-do it. Then, after a lot of practice looked really comfortable with it.

It was nice seeing him smile and I think he loved hearing me finally praise him.

Maybe the end of last weeks lesson when he asked me if he was holding the rest of his family back was the moment when he thought' actually I need to get to grips with this or I will fall even further behind'.


Very pleased.........shame about my other 2 students today

Perhaps he's reading the forum

Very pleased for you anyway