Hi,
Can anyone out there give me any tips on learning to play hymns? Ive got a few books that I bought today in the oxfam bookshop, but are there any secrets to getting them to click?
And also, huge intervals - ie bigger than a 10th, is it acceptable to transpose the bass note up an octave, or should the tenor be transposed down?

Many thanks
HC

If you're playing the pedals, HC, then it is normal for the pedals to play the bass line, and the left hand to play the tenor only. This will sort out all those large intervals for you.

If you're not playing the pedals, look up a book such as Janette Cooper's 'Hymn Tunes for the Reluctant Organist' which has hymn tunes arranged to be easily playable on manuals only. There are various books of this type, and one or two others which have hymn tunes arranged with just one or two notes for the pedals.

Good luck!

Ah ok, i got a little confused as it wasnt on a seperate stave
That makes it easier then - im playing them on piano, in the hope that I one day can take organ lessons / get use of one, haha.
Have been reading the Oxford organ tutor book, its quite interesting, (red hardback), was only £2.
I also got a big thick book about the organ, but i wont read it, as it appears someone has sneezed in it...

HG is right about the pedals But say you are practising on a keyboard rather than an organ, or on an organ without a pedalboard, (ed or on a piano!), I would put the bass up an octave rather than the tenor down.

However, sometimes you'll find you can include the tenor note in with the two RH ones - so where it is close enough keep that in mind. eg a chord of G major where you have treble G on the second line, alto D below the bottom line, tenor B just below middle C, bass G on the bottom line of the bass stave - play the top three parts all with your RH and the bass G can stay where it is.

Thanks, shall try that out in a bit.
I have managed to sight-read God Save The King (its a rather old book), rather slow i hasten to add!

I looked everywhere for a copy a few years ago, and ended up paying £20! I hate you!

Its quite interesting really, and its brand new!

I beat you both - an organist friend of mine is lending me it. Ha!

*exits*

yeh, well i bought mine from a charity
AND i paid 5p for a bag, which went to buying a goat for someone in Africa.

When I'm sight-reading hymns on the piano I often just leave the tenor out when there's a big gap between bass and tenor.

The tenor is often just doubling the root or fifth of the chord, or is the 7th in a dominant 7th chord, and leaving it out in all those circumstances sounds ok-ish. The tenors themselves hate it tho :-)

You should use the pedal to sustain the chords between beats so you don't have to worry about legato fingering.

Incidentally, playing hymns on the piano is SO much easier than playing them on the organ, where you've got pedals and legato fingering to worry about.

David.

Must confess, I do this too - didn't like to admit to it though with so many good musicians on here!

You will find, h-c, that once you've learned three or four hymns in common keys, it gets much easier. The chords don't vary greatly between hymns, so it all suddenly clicks.

so if you are practising on the piano with a view to being able to play them on the organ, is it stating the obvious to say that using the pedal to sustain the chords is not going to help you much?

Well, yes, if the OP's intention is to become a good player of hymns on the organ then you're right. But if that's the case, you could also argue that he shouldn't bother playing the bass at all with the fingers :-)

Personally, I regard playing hymns on the piano and on the organ as two completely different skills - I wouldn't bother doing any preparation for a hymn I had to perform on the organ on the piano beforehand, as for me personally it isn't valuable. For me (and I'm sure this is personal) - hymns on the piano is simply "bashing them out" for pleasure or choir rehearsal, and playing them on the organ is "playing them properly" for public performance in church.

David.

Hi all,
I've found someone in my area who is an organ teacher (I believe) so I shall email him asking him if he teaches.
The one thing im worried about is getting to practice, my local church has a 2 manual organ, but are vicars usually willing to let people use their instruments?
I could threaten no practice = no bells on sunday!
Thanks,
HC

It doesn't really matter what vicars usually do - why not ask the one who does matter i.e. the one whose organ you want to use?! Seriously, if he knows you are reliable at bellringing, and feels he can trust you, he may well let you make arrangements with the organist.

Vicars are only human. If you approach him as you would approach a senior teacher at school, with a bit of respect, and explain the position, you will get a straight answer. It's in the church's interest for young people to learn to play the organ, so I don't think he will say no unless you have a poor reputation on the behaviour front!

You could. But I reckon it's aurally more helpful to hear the complete harmony in practice. Missing off a bass note is probably a lot less bother than re-fingering the whole thing because you suddenly don't have a sustaining pedal. You could always sing the bass line though - excellent practice. If your vocal range is suitable.

I agree playing hymns on the piano is a totally different kettle of fish.

You'd be better off talking with the organist, I think. It's normally up to the organist to give permission.

Do you know your Organist or Vicar well enough to speak to? I would try the Organist first, but if you feel that he/she isn't approachable your Vicar will probably be happy to introduce you.

Just make sure you pick the right time to ask - by that I don't mean half way through a closing voluntary.

Your regular Organist may even give lessons him/herself, but that could present problems if you are using another organ tutor.

Ultimately, it should be the Organists decision whether you are allowed to play or not. Mst will be happy to accomodate you, but human nature being what it is............

SB

In the Church of England it is the minister (i.e. the incumbent), not the organist or PCC, who has the say about who can use the organ for practice.

The agreement of the organist is usually desirable, but not necessary in law.


Barry Williams

I remember someone saying to me a while ago that playing hymn music on piano is great for getting used to sight-reading chords and the like. Can't say I've tried myself though.

Thank you for clarifying that Barry. I had always understood that the Organist was 'responsible' for the organ, and therefore had the final say in whether or not a learner or visitor should play on it.

Whatever the case in law, I know more than one organist who can make things very difficult when he feels like it.

But I can't see any reasonable incumbent trying to go against the wishes of the organist with this one. Normally they would leave it up to the organist.

Also, don't I recall that there's a clause in the RSCM/ISM contract for the employment of organists in which it states that nobody shall be given access to the organ without the permission of the organist?

My experience (possibly not typical) has been that the resident organist is generally more than happy, and it's the priest and churchwardens who have been sticky.

........ and in my experience, you are more likely to suffer complaints about 'hymn tunes being played on the organ' from church flower ladies than all of the others put together.

As I said, human nature being what it is........

On the ordinary parish level, you'll be lucky to find a church which isn't desperate for more musicians and, frankly, people in general to go along, so you won't have any problems in getting a foot in the door. I'd go to the organist myself as they know what they're talking about.

What you have to bear in mind is that the church of england is, musically speaking, composed largely of cretinous clergy who think they know everything about music and even have official rules putting them ultimately in charge. I'd say if you want total artistic freedom, do what I do and get yourself a post (even if you only play occasionally) in a Catholic church. The clergy tend to be much more involved with purely liturgical matters and leave music to the musicians- so you can really put some flare into what you play.

As for hymn playing, I'd say don't be afraid to pad out your chords- as far as notes go, the more the merrier (but do bear in mind volume and effect- be sensible). If you have fairly large hands, you might consider playing both the bass and tenor lines with your left hand, as well as pedalling. And never be put off by people that tell you you're too loud- you can never please everyone and most will appreciate it.

There are some quite sweeping generalisations here. Yes, there are some slightly misguided clergy, but I think it unfair to say the majority are cretinous. And although I have less experience in the RC, I have found an equal mix of competent and otherwise there.

As for playing the tenor and bass parts in the left hand, a coupler does the trick far easier and there can't be that many organs that don't have a great/pedal.

Yes sorry about that, by cretinous I really mean interfering or ill-informed. Honestly I used the word "cretinous" mainly because I like alliteration haha

I normally play the clarinet for the hymns at church (transposing), but this week I am filling in as pianist. We don't have an organ, but a keyboard (a Roland, I think). Our church is really small, and doesn't look like one from the outside! It doesn't have a font either. Having said all that, however, it's a really nice community and everyone knows each other - so nobody's going to pick on me if I mess up the hymns!