A couple of recent threads have set me thinking:
Classic music defining characteristics thread
B&W film thread

In the first of these this was posted;

". . . I personally would not classify (say) a film theme as classical music just because it's played by a symphony orchestra."

The second was about films, which made me wonder about great original film scores which unquestionably ARE classical music, for example:

The Sea Hawk, 1940, original score by Erich Korngold.
Henry V, 1944, original score by William Walton.
Scott of the Antarctic, 1948, original score by Ralph Vaughan-Williams.

There are others which borrow from the classical Genre, such as 2001 a Space Oddessy, Death in Venice and Brief Encounter but it isn't the same thing.

Which leads me to 2 questions:

Firstly, what's your favourite film score?
Secondly, if a piece of music is written for orchestra, even for a film score, why might it NOT be considered classical music?

I love too many film scores to choose a favourite, but I'll pick a couple of John Barry's to start with...

- Out of Africa

- The Last Valley (which isn't a well known one so here's the City of Prague Philharmonic rehearsing the theme... shades of Roses from the South in parts? - eg from around 35"?)


I think I'll leave speculation on your second question to the experts

Well it changes from day to day but at the moment I'm really loving the Ladies in Lavender music. I know its really cliche but I think Joshua Bell is a really great violinist.

In terms of defining things as classical music the obvious first argument is that classical music is a term for a specific period in music and as such no originally composed film music should be classed as classical music.
But of course the term classical music has now become an umbrella term for all "serious" music and therefore I suppose you could use it for film music.

I know we keep being told how radical some of the music of Beethoven and Haydn was in its day, but nevertheless there is a kind of narrative thread in it that makes it possible to listen through and follow the internal dialogue until its conclusion. Despite studying music from the Second Viennese school and the styles it spawned, I don't think I have ever bought a CD of the music of Berg or sat through an entire opera composed in the last 10 years, simply because they all sound the same to me.

That is a terrible admission to make.

Film scores, however, are composed to be popular and that will probably reduce their merit to that of a print of The Haywain.
They are symphonic superficially but I doubt if they follow sonata form. For those like me who sit through the complete list of credits (to the annoyance of the cinema staff with their bin bags) it is apparent that there is a second movement with a complete contrast in character. I don't know if this is to satisfy an artistic need for a second theme or if it is tacked on to accommodate increasingly long lists of credits.

Hans Zimmer seems to be ubiquitous at the moment, but that may just indicate the type of films I watch.
(Can't get enough of Madagascar 2 at the moment )

Stuff and nonsense: The word "classical" as applied to music means both the specific period and the general style also referred to occasionally as Western Art Music, depending on context: By your definition Poulenc, Messien, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, even Rachmaninov, Liszt, Brahms and Chopin would not count as classical music. This is clearly ridiculous: None of them are classical period music but they are all classical music, to say nothing of the 3 scores mentioned in my original post (The Sea Hawk, Henry V, Scott of the Antarctic).


I would be very surprised if a film score followed sonata form but I cannot believe that you are suggesting that music which does not follow sontata form should not be considered classical music: Even confining yourself to orchestral scores, where would that leave ballet, opera, tone poems, or those compositions that predate Haydn? Sorry, this just won't do!

When I said this I followed it with a big grin. Do keep a sense of proportion, doc!

I have no idea what kind of structural scheme these undoubtedly successful composers follow because I have never studied it. Even at its zenith, sonata form was only one of many musical designs. I think it was skylark who started the thread about what constitutes classical music, and there are as many views as there are people who hold them. It just goes to show what dangerous waters we find ourselves in if we insist on giving everything a label.

i'm not a big fan of film scores, but i do like Hans Zimmer's score for the Crimson Tide soundtrack.

as to whether film scores can be classical music; well, i won't try to define classical music, but in general i'd say classical music is music which either stands on its own, or with another 'classical' art form, such as opera or ballet. while film scores have a lot in common with programme music, it goes further in that the theme is defined by the film, and the score is written to fit around that. compare that with opera, for example, where the score and libretto go hand in hand, and it's that which defines the work; the things which are essential to film or (non-musical) theatre, such as plot, characters, etc., are secondary. (that's not to say those things aren't important, but the work is defined primarily by the music.)

if a particularly strong score is performed on its own, does that make it classical music? i don't think so; it's still part of the film, you've just removed the rest of it. the score is an essential part of some films, but if you remove the score, it's still a film; so if take a film and remove the photography and spoken/incidental sound, you're still left with a film score. to draw another comparison to opera, the William Tell overture is often performed on its own, but it's still an operatic overture.

Ah but by my definition (actually not my definition but more of an observation) of classical music being an umbrella term for all 'serious'' music, Poulenc, Schostakovich etc. would all easily class as classical. Of course 'serious' music is just as ambiguous as classical in this context. I think that music with some sort of traditional basis, be it the ensemble/instruments or the compositional style could be described as classical music. There is a grey area though.

The music from The Red Violin is pretty cool as well.

I, personally, would classify film music of the John Williams etc ish variety as classical (the is an awful lot of film music which is not at all 'classical'!), but I think of classical music to mean music of a particular sound (well lots of different sounds...) rather than for a particular purpose.

I can never decide whether the Lord of the Rings or Pirates of the Caribbean music is my favourite. I'm possibly leaning towards Lord of the Rings at the moment, but I'm sure I'll have changed my mind in a couple of days.

This is a BBC Proms performance of William Walton's "Battle in the Air" from the film The Battle of Britain (it starts at about 1'10). If I didn't know it was from a film and heard it performed at a concert, I would think it was "classical music". So why isn't it

I love the music for Schindler's List (John Williams), Pirates of the Caribbean, and 1492 Conquest of Paradise, which I have never seen, but heard the music somewhere and think it's wonderful (Vangelis).

and


No, the classical period (about 1750 to 1825) definitely excludes all those I mentioned (Modern or Romantic) as well as all Baroque composers (e.g. J.S. Bach) and, naturally, all film scores.






Nice link



I think it is - that's rather my point.

Our conductor has introduced film music as the 'classical' music of today.
I hadn't thought of it that way until she said it but she's probably about right.
Wasn't the 'classical' music of Mozart etc. the 'popular' music of the day?

Someone I'm sure will put me right on this, but the impression that I'd got was that it wasn't: that it was mainly the equivalent of film music and possibly the likes of Reich and Glass today. The equivalent to pop music would be more along the lines of folk music. Most normal people would probably never have heard Mozart etc.

This is quite an interesting example, as Walton was only brought in comparatively late in the day for this film. Ron Goodwin composed most of the music for the film, but it was felt that it needed a bigger name to tie it all up. The soundtrack of the film I have is excellent as it presents both the Goodwin and the Walton.

Of course, John WIlliams (most famously) and others, used the classical technique of 'leitmotif' from Wagner to symbolise places, characters, emotions etc. The Star Wars series of 6 films is a good eaxmple of this.

A good place to explore the classical composers v film composers debate is with the Chandos film music series, of which I have most of them. Vaughan Williams/Shostakovich etc rub shoulders with the likes of the Ron Goodwin and Richard Rodney Bennett. Stuck somewhere in the middle are people like Auric (anyone for The Titfield Thunderbolt?) who was involved with a number of the Ealing Comedies, and his non film music has much in common with his film music.

I am liking Henry V suite at the momen. This may be becuase we are practicing it in youth orchestra for an upcoming concert.

Fave film music of all time is the James Bond theme. Also love the music for Chicken Run and Lord of the Rings. The latter I would definitely consider Classical; I haven't analysed why but probably due to its instrumentation and rhythmic and melodic constructions. Chicken Run is mostly classical but pastiches other types of music as well (it's all one big rip-off really but it's so well done it always makes me smile). I think the Bond theme defies categorisation, unless it falls into a jazz category, but I'm not an expert on that... anyone know?

Definityly LOTR and Pirates of the Carribean. Last of the Mohicans obviously too. Nightmare before Xmas (or anything by Danny Elfman especially Edward Scissorhands).

I watched that the other night.
It was BORING!!!
It seemed as though there were only 2 or 3 different tunes in the whole thing.

Which one? Walton or Doyle?

I had to dive into this thread... I am a massive film score fan and have a huge collection

Film/TV score wise, off the top of my head, some of my favourites (in no particular order)

LOTR - Howard shore (been to the concert twice!)
Gladiator - Hans Zimmer
Braveheart - James Horner
Star Wars - A New Hope - John Williams

Individual pieces that I absolutely love:

The Day After Tomorrow (Intro Theme) - Harald Kloser
Cavatina (from the Deer Hunter) - Stanley Myers/John Williams
Duel of the Fates (Phantom Menace) - John Williams
Deep Space 9 - Concert Version (Star Trek) - Jerry Goldsmith
Flying theme (ET) - John Williams
Theme from Schindler's List - John Williams (have heard this at the RFH in concert, extremely moving)
Imperial March (Empire Strikes Back) - John Williams
Castaway - Alan Silvestri

Also, a bit out there, and not classical, but I really like some of the music Alan Silvestri did for Predator - the percussion style is absolutely amazing.

really? Ooh I love it I've been watching it since I was about three though!

Walton

A vote for the Atonement score here!

Prize if anyone knows what John Williams has referred to as his favourite score? Clue, its nothing to do with space, aliens etc. and its not very recent.

Half of that sequence was orchestrated by Malcolm Arnold who was helping out his old friend when he ran into time constraints. The Arnoldian fingerprints are all over it. In the end, the whole of Walton's score was thrown out (Battle in the Air excepted) in favour of a more commercial score by Ron Goodwin.

I was at that Prom and the diversity of composers represented gives an insight into how difficult it is to characterise Film Music in classical terms:

'Classical composers' : Walton, RVW, Arnold, John Ireland, Constant Lambert, Richard Rodney-Bennett

'Non-classical composers' : Brian Easdale, Larry Adler, Maurice Jarre, Eric Rogers, John Williams, Debbie Wiseman, Patrick Doyle, Harry Gregson-Williams etc. etc.

To answer the OP, I think I quite like Walton's Spitfire Prelude and Fugue which were effectively distilled from the film 'The First of the Few' (1941). The Fugue is especially fine, IMHO.

I loved this so much when the film came out that my mother bought me the record - I still have it!



I think it's great




Well I think I know, but on the other hand I cheated, so I won't say it here (and if it is that one, then I didn't even know it was his)

Give me a clue to see if we're on the same wavelength!

I'll do my best, but I'm not a great Susannah York fan.

Oh dear, I've never actually seen this film, so that might take a bit of checking!

My favourite film sound tracks are not the dramatic pseudo-classical style epics, or twelve-tone horror movie backgrounds, but those American "coming of age" type films that are packed with lots of great 50's, 60's and 70's popular songs - all those you like best, and can sing along with, but never bothered to find out what their titles were or who recorded them.

I know what you mean about film sound tracks: I love "The Blues Brothers" and "The Commitments", as well as the more recent "The Boat That Rocked". I am also not a great fan of pseudo-classical style (or anything to do with horror movies - despite my day job even bad horror movies give me nightmares!)

However, my original post was about film scores as opposed to film sound tracks, and was partly based on the question of what would make a film score classical (in the sense of Western Art Music, not 1750-1825 period music) as opposed to pseudo-classical. I can easily see how people might have reservations about the score for "The Lord of the Rings" being thought of as classical music but as I said in my original post, I don't see how anyone could argue against, for example, Korngold's score for "The Sea Hawk" being counted as classical music.

Last night I saw The Tree of Life and am sorry to say it was just about OK, despite the awards and brilliant reviews.

There was a lot of good classical music in the film and yet it felt very disjointed - one scene Bach Toccata and Fugue, another Smetana Ma Vlast. I love that music and yet it didn't feel right. Perhaps I've got used to film music having a theme that keeps recurring so this chopping and changing seemed a bit random. I felt as if I was watching a series of home movies to the soundtrack of Classic FM. (Here is a list of the film music.)

OH just bought that for him and my violin teacher to play. Really looking forward to hearing them as I don't know the piece, but OH says it's lovely.

Have just had a three day LotR marathon (OH's new Blueray box) and I do very much like the music.

I have nothing much to add to the debate regarding what is classical music or not - I don't feel I know enough to contribute, but while we're naming favourites - of the top of my head:-

I like Thomas Newman - especially American Beauty soundtrack.
David Lean film music - eg Lawrence of Arabia
I loved the Star Wars theme as a kid and still hold it in great affection.

I have to say that my favourite soundtrack from the lord of the rings.

Whether film scores find their way into classical repertoire depend on their quality and how time treats it.

Well, there's quite a bit of snobbery about film music, but I think those who write (well) for films are the really skilled composers and musicians of our day. To anyone who turns up their nose at the notion of film music having validity in any musical contect which also embraces, say, symphonies, I'd suggest that it has no less balidity than music for ballet - and you'd hardly put Prokofiev's Romeo & nJuliet out in the cold, would you?

"Oh, what's the world coming to, they never included <shudder> film music in programmes of serious music a century ago." Er, think about it - serious composers eschewed film as a medium in which to express themselves because... it was a genre which didn't really exist until at least the 1920s!

I think this snobbery extends to the singling out of music by people such as Korngold and VW because they had "form" in other musical genres. True, the music for film, apart from the "big theme" type music at the beginning and particularly thye end, is of necessity often very splintered by the needs of the film, and it's been suggested that the best film music is that which you don't even notice, it's doing its job of enhancing the atmosphere and drama so effectively.

Is a craftsmanlike composer a "valid" classical composer or not? Two names spring to mind particularly - John Williams and Carl Davis. Davis wrote an entire score for the silent film version of Ben Hur, as well as a few others in similar genre. I've seen the film performed with live orchestral accompaniment all the way through, and extremely effective the music was too. Both Williams and Davis, together with others such as Malcolm Arnold are/were craftsmen par excellence.

John Williams/Harry Potter rocks!

But ballet scores are straight through and (non-silent) film scores aren't, so they need considerable adaptation to work in the concert hall. There are some film scores that I like IN THE FILM but hate in isolation (The Piano, anyone?) and there are also some arrangements that are too much like badly made patchwork.

I loved Carl Davis' music for "Private Schulz".

Hasn't anyone mentioned Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky? That's the definitive classical music-film score. It has entered the classical repertoire as an oratorio, and by now I suspect more people have heard the oratorio than seen the movie, which was brilliant for its time but a bit dated now (and very heavy-handed propaganda).

As for the question--I don't think there's a bright line. I could imagine doing a concert just of film music, including the aforementioned oratorio plus pieces of classical music that have become strongly identified with films, though not written for them--the opening of "Also sprach zarathustra" and "2001" for example, plus shorter pieces like Bernard Heerman's title credit music for "North by northwest" which is quite compelling.

Of course it can be classical music and not be performable by a symphony orchestra, just as you can use a symphony orchestra to perform advertising jingles and they'll still be jingles.

I'm thinking of Louis and Bebe Barron's all-electronic music score for "Forbidden Planet," which I love. Is that classical?

For more conventionally classical-ly stuff, there's "The Red Violin," "Schindler's List," and "Henry V"--Patrick Doyle's score for the Kenneth Branaugh version, not the 1945 one.

Few movies have enough music to weave into a full-fledged piece, as was possible with "Alexander Nevsky" but there are a lot of shorter themes and whatnot that are, I think, viable if you packaged them in a concert correctly. Could be quite a crowd-pleaser in fact.

Unfortunately, my favorite movie music of all time is not classical, sorry to say. It's the zither solo for "The third man," which is absolutely unforgettable--its simple cheerfulness becoming more and more fraught as the film progresses, giving it ironic depths by the end that show how simple means often produce the strongest results.

Well, that and Kubrick's edit of Ligeti's "Atmospheres" and some other of his works for the last segment of "2001." I'd never heard Ligetic before seeing it and it made me a fan.

I really enjoyed the music for the film The Princess of Montpensier written by Phillipe Sarde.

It's modern music written to sound old, so probably not for the purists. Still I enjoyed it and am considering buying it.

I just have to add some of my favorites...

My new all time favorite..

How to Train You Dragon - John Powell

This inspires me so much I keep a little stuffed "toothless" on my music stand while I practice..

Not movies exactly but anything by Trevor Morris
Which includes all Four Seasons of The Tudors, The Pillars of Earth, and now The Borgias.. Showtime must own this guy.. The Tudors seasons 3 and 4 are probably my favorites..

The Lord of the Rings - Howard Shore

.

Just a few that come to mind in no particular order: Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Princess Mononoke and Rocky Horror Picture Show.

I'll leave the classical music/film music debate to those whose knowledge far surpasses the insignificant intellect of my own

Some wonderfully atmospheric Armenian-inspired music in Ararat. Good enough to spur me to buyinbg the CD, which I rarely do with a film