Hello,

My piano teacher recommended 2 books (Inventions by J.S. Bach), by G. Henle and Barenreiter, but I'm not sure which one I should get.
Is there any difference between the 2?
Any advice or recommendations?

Thanks!

my teacher reccommended inventions by bach to improve my sight reading

If your teacher recommended both, it's probably a case of "either - or"

They are simply different editions - the notes are unlikely to vary, or possibly just in ornamental detail. My copy is quite old, and is neither of those two, so I can't side with one or the other, but they do both have a good name.

If you can, it might be worth looking at both. The choice might come down to which one is better laid out on the page - or even which one will better open flat on the music stand!

Maggie

Thanks, but the problem is... I am totally CLUELESS abt this sort of books... I duno, I hav jus been introduced to dis thing call inventions, (I've just started on G5, but my former teachers did not introduce stuffs like this to me) and duno what it is.....

I 've been to a bookstore and seen some of the books...same title, but diff publisher... but hav not seen any by G.Henle or Barenreiter.
Arghh.... I really duno which is the best!

My flute teacher tells me that Barenreiter editions of the music are printed as the composer would have left it. Other editors may add slurs/dynamics/ornamentation but the Barenreiter editions are for you to add your own ideas if the composer hasn't put any - can anyone confirm this??
The ABRSM exam list usually specifiy an edition of a work which should be used presumably so that they know what is to be played as editors can change any number of things.
I'm sure that if your piano teacher has said buy either that there is very little to choose between the two editions. However as Maggiemay has said if you can get to see both one might have a better layout than another.
Which one is cheaper or more readily available?
If either of them is quoted on the ABRSM exam lists - go for that one!

QUOTE

I hav jus been introduced to dis thing call inventions, (I've just started on G5, but my former teachers did not introduce stuffs like this to me) and duno what it is

Don't worry about that aspiring_pianist. You wouldn't be likely to meet Bach's Inventions much before grade 5 anyway. They are simply keyboard pieces with an independent part for each hand - quite intricate and fun to play.

JRBailey - that's interesting and very useful to know. I hadn't really compared the two before, but I find I have the Henle edition of the Bach 48, and the Barenreiter edition of the Bach Toccatas, and in both the pages are very "clean" and there seems very little added to either (no slurs, dynamics, ) - with one noticeable difference; the Henle includes some fingering advice.

If the two books I've looked at are typical, I wonder if the Henle, with some fingering suggestions, could be more helpful to you, aspiring_pianist, than an edition with no fingering advice at all. Since this is your first look at this style of music, it can be quite tricky to have to work out the best fingering for yourself. Your teacher will help of course - but some fingering in the copy might mean you can avoid a few wrong turnings in the early stages. Fingering is of course individual, and there is often more than one way - but some help can be better than none at all.

I'm pretty sure it helped me when I first played Inventions and that sort of thing - left to chance it would have been very haphazard !

Maggie

QUOTE (aspiring_pianist @ Nov 14 2004, 08:08 AM)

Hello, My piano teacher recommended 2 books (Inventions by J.S. Bach), by G. Henle and Barenreiter, but I'm not sure which one I should get. Is there any difference between the 2? Any advice or recommendations? Thanks!  :)

For some composers (possibly not J S Bach) the notes might differ. One notorious example is the Quintet for piano and wind by Mozart, of which there were many incorrect editions and one correct one (Barenreiter) for many years. When I was told about this I borrowed the Bahrenreiter and annotated the piano part of my own Musica Rara edition with all the corrections I could find. I recently played this on horn, with a pianist who had taken another edition to a summer school, where she was told by her coach that it was unacceptable and she would have to buy the Bahrenreiter one. During rehearsals we discovered differences in the other parts.

I have three editions of the A major concerto K488. The Schirmer piano reduction, published 1940 and edited by Francis L York, appears to conform, as far as I can see, with the Barenreiter Neue Mozart Ausgabe pocket score, which is generally accepted as being the definitive version. The Choudens edition, from before 1935, piano part edited by Marguerite Long, differs in the notes.

Editions matter if you want to play what the composer wrote.

QUOTE (JRBailey @ Nov 14 2004, 09:44 AM)

If either of them is  quoted on the ABRSM exam lists - go for that one!

I think that the AB do their own edition (signature series in a gold book) so that's the one that's likely to appear on exam lists, although they'll probably always put them in the selected pieces books as they own the copyright it's cheap. It is worth noting though that any good edition is accepted for exams.

I have AB's and Henle's edition of Bach's Inventions and Sinfonias in my collection and I've seen the one from Barenreiter before. The one by Richard Jones (published by ABRSM Publishing) are equipped with editorial fingering, phrasing, performance directions and a detailed commentary. The ones from Henle and Barenreiter are very "clean". The onlt difference is that Henle has minimal amount of fingerings.

Hey everyone,

Really appreciate all your advice and suggestions.... ok, understand now that the ABRSM's version of the book has more editorial suggestions, fingerings, etc... compared to the one by G.Henle and Barenreiter.

Actually, at present, I'm not using the book for exams ... well, at least my teacher did not mention anything abt using it for exams at the moment. So, basically using it as an exposure and intro to Inventions & Sinfonias.

Now I hav another question.... (sorry for being a nuisance ).... are books with those editorial fingering, phrasing, etc. better or would it be better to get a book that is "clean"?

I don't think i'm that 'good' enuff to noe where and when to add phrasings, performance directions, etc, by myself....but then, hav heard that s/t those editorial suggestions r not all tt wonderful and suitable (for certain pieces I've come across). Is that true?

As everyone has different interpretations of how a certain piece should be played there are always people who will disagree with any edited edition no matter how authoritative it may be viewed to be. Some people like the unedited versions simply so that they can draw their own conculsions; whereas others like the editor to do some of the work for them and are happy to trust their judgements, after all they're usually people who are well respected and have done a lot of study on that music. Of course it's still possible to play from an edited edition and ignore some suggestions that you disagree with.

For people with less experience, myself included, probably the edited editions are best but if you're studying with your teacher and (s)he has asked for the unedited versions it's probably because (s)he wants to tell you how (s)he wants you to play it. I would go with what your teacher suggests either of the suggested ones is probably fine if you've been given a choice (pick the one with the nicest cover or something!).

QUOTE (aspiring_pianist @ Nov 14 2004, 10:40 AM)

Now I hav another question.... (sorry for being a nuisance  :unsure: ).... are books with those editorial fingering, phrasing, etc. better or would it be better to get a book that is "clean"?

I couldn't tell you which is better. However, I have a version of Bach's inventions edited by Willard Palmer, published by Alfred. This has a considerable amount of stuff (phrasing, fingering etc.) added. However, it's all done in grey rather than black so it's rather easy to tell what's been added and what's supposed to be original.

Also, if you just want any version, you can download free copies of Bach's inventions from one of my favorite web sites: mutopia project

QUOTE

(sorry for being a nuisance  )....

don't be silly

I think AnotherPianist has given you good advice here.

Must say - looking at my (old) edition of the two-part inventions I 've realised how untidy and "busy" the pages look, compared with the much cleaner Henle and Barenreiter eds of other Bach things I've looked at today. Think maybe I could do with a newer edition !

Hope you enjoy the Inventions - done any other pieces by Bach aspiring_pianist?

Maggie

To summarise the answer:
- Henle urtext or Wiener Urtext: Good for early advanced pianists who have decent understanding of the writing techniques. Have very useful fingerings that may be great aid. Ornaments are left in original state, but the editors wrote their suggestions for the ornaments.
- Barenreiter urtext : Good for advanced pianists who want complete freedom in exercising their authority over the music. Must be able to figure out fingering completely by yourself ( no fingering ). Ornaments are completely left in their original state.

I think what makes Richard Jones' edition (AB) a good edition is that whenever something is editorial we know it is Jones' input, not Bach's, so that the performer can take decisions on what and what not to follow according to their knowledge and tastes.

It is rather different to those heavily-edited "busy" editions from the 19th century. One problem with those editions is that they help to create a monoculture in music-making. Certainly there can be more than one way to performing Bach. Critical thinking is needed whenever you buy music scores.

Slightly off topic, I heard an amusing quote yesterday, along the lines that playing the 2 and 3 part inventions is like taking 2 (or3) dogs for a walk: as soon as you turn your attention to one, the other(s) start misbehaving. Hope you will soon experience this first hand, aspiring pianist.

Haha

Nice one HelenVJ

Maggie

Hello everyone,

Once again, thanks for all your advice! Guess I'll ask my teacher in the next lesson and c wat she says... I'm jus afraid she'l tell me.... "It's up to you to decide which book to get, really!" Argghh....

Ok.... yupz Helen VJ....will keep you updated wen I start on the Inventions tingy... geez

To answer your qn Maggie... I've played Musette in D before... by Bach... geez. Guess that is not too tough a piece. Right now I am learning Sonatina in F by Beethoven.

Hey, anyone using Alfred's Basic Piano Library (Lesson and Recital) books? What do you think of them? Previously, one teacher told me to get them... den later when I change teacher, this current one doesn't like them one bit... and totally doesn't wanna use them.. so hav to use others...
I am using Piano Litertaure V2 by Jane Smisor Bastien.... recommended by this teacher.

QUOTE (aspiring_pianist @ Nov 14 2004, 03:40 PM)

Now I hav another question.... (sorry for being a nuisance  :unsure: ).... are books with those editorial fingering, phrasing, etc. better or would it be better to get a book that is "clean"? I don't think i'm that 'good' enuff to noe where and when to add phrasings,  performance directions, etc, by myself....but then, hav heard that s/t those editorial suggestions r not all tt wonderful and suitable (for certain pieces I've come across). Is that true?

Editors are not the only source of information on such questions. You can listen to recordings by great artists to find out what they think about the piece. You should do that with the score in front of you, and possibly also a metronome or a watch. For Bach Inventions listen to both piano* and harpsichord versions (clavichord too, if you can find one) and definitely not just one. At the top level, performance remains a compromise, but now between the intentions of the composer and the personality of the performer. You should consider every aspect of the performances+ where the manner is not indicated by the composer's notation and decide whether you are justified in doing the same. In particular, in Bach keyboard music, you need to decide how much you wish to depart on the piano from the monochrome of the harpsichord.

* You will hear great differences between Rosalyn Tureck and Glenn Gould.

+ likely candidates are dynamics, speed variation, articulation, decoration (Bach is usually pretty comprehensively decorated, and the Inventions mostly don't need much, but in other Baroque pieces you may want to add some, or vary between first and second time in repeated passages). For legitimate forms of decorations see "Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments" by C P E Bach.