I followed a CMorris tip through to an article on this project in the articles section of this website. The tip was given in a thread about Kodaly, which I was interested to find out more about after reading various of Violinia's lyrically waxed threads on the subject.

It seems 120 children of all abilities are currently on this course - they start at age 6 on a "first come, first served" basis - there is no entrance assessment. From such average beginnings they have had something like 6 or 8 (can't remember) people go on to Chethams, and 2 join the National Youth Orchestra.

They don't learn a musical instrument for a whole year- for the first year they do one two part lesson each week, one part of which is 45 mins learning about music through singing via this "Kodaly method", and the other part is 45 minutes linking music to movement in a method called "Dalcroze Eurythmics". After a year they start an instrument, but the Dalcroze/Kodaly lessons continue in addition throughout.

It makes me wonder if I'm going about things the right way starting straight off with instrumental lessons - I'm going to enquire as to whether there are any Kodaly or Dalcroze teachers in my area (Chester).

I found the above very interesting but I suspect even though the plan is not meant to be elitist, that knowledge of it may be restricted to those "in the know" simply by lack of advertising. Accordingly if anyone is interested the numbers given (which I intend to ring next week) are:

Rachel Lasance - 0161 907 5398
Penny Stirling - 0161 907 5348

I think the Junior Strings project under Penny Stirling is relatively well known; I don't live in your area so I don't know what advertising is done.

I know both of the teachers very well - Karin Greenhead (Dalcroze) and Luke Dunlea (Kodaly). They teach the two approaches to post-grad RNCM students - both at their own level of musicianship and also the methodology to allow them to teach the approaches themselves.

We run a similar course for children at the Junior Guildhall in London - again, the children learn them for a year or two years prior to learning an instrument, something that I am TOTALLY in favour of. 'A child who plays before he sings may remain unmusical for a lifetime'.... I presume you're interested in this for your own children??

Please just ask if you want to know more about either approach. I have attended several Dalcroze classes and work closely with Dalcroze teachers (several who are products of the Junior Strings project), so I know a fair bit about it although I'm not Dalcroze-trained. I AM Kodaly-trained, though!

Good luck in your pursuit of K & D teachers - please let me know if I can help in any way.

Nice one Cyrilla! Thanks for your reply

What would be really helpful is if you have any tips for finding a Kodaly or Dalcroze teacher in the Chester area? I have been to their British Websites and there doesn't seem to be much of a list. Having worked out the logistics, I am disappointed to say the Junior strings project looks like too much travel after a school day - a 2 hour round trip without the usual Manchester traffic, plus 1.5 hours lessons, with the added problem of what to do with little brother. And that would be twice a week after the first year. It's a real shame because this project is the first opportunity I've seen to jump into the musical mainstream rather than dip our toes in the margins, and it sounds like the children get a good grounding without it ever feeling like effort.

Stand easy Cyrilla! News is NO Kodaly or Dalcrose courses in Chester. I've bitten the bullet and sent off the enrolment forms for JSP. Rachel Lasance tells me there's a good chance some places are still available, as some of the people on the waiting list have moved out of the area, but she will know for definite in the next few days. I've found a local taxi firm approved for local authority child care work who can take my daughter to Manchester, and my wife can collect from work at that end! Don't want to get too excited though, until I find out whether they've got a place.

By the way, for anyone like me whose knowledge of the world of music doesn't extend far beyond what they have read on this website, I found out during my phone call that "Kodaly" doesn't sound like "cuddly" with an "O" - it sounds like "Kode- ai - ee".

QUOTE

I found out during my phone call that "Kodaly" doesn't sound like "cuddly" with an "O" - it sounds like "Kode- ai - ee"

It took me a while to make the connection between Cyrilla's "Kodaly" and my music teacher's "Kode-ai-ee" as well! Pronouncation can be so confusing...

Actually the most authentic pronunciation *puts on best Hungarian accent* is 'Cod-eye'!! (Hungarian always has a stronger first syllable).

Keep me posted re your efforts, zoda! I know how difficult it is to find teachers of either disciplines in all areas of the country - there aren't that many of us around and - as with all teachers - there are bad eggs around as well as good ones. I've just heard of someone who has done TWO DAYS TRAINING who is employed by a university as a Kodaly teacher..*FUME*

QUOTE (Cyrilla @ Nov 17 2004, 06:47 PM)

Actually the most authentic pronunciation *puts on best Hungarian accent* is 'Cod-eye'!! (Hungarian always has a stronger first syllable).

I was trogging through the rain in Crewe yesterday on my way back to the station, trying to say 'Cod - eye' in my best Hungarian accent, when I realised I don't know what Hungarian sounds like - it kept coming out like a guard from "Tenko".

QUOTE (zoda @ Nov 19 2004, 05:58 PM)

I realised I don't know what Hungarian sounds like - it kept coming out like a guard from "Tenko".

It's actually very hard to describe a Hungarian accent! Hungarian has to be one of the hardest languages as it isn't like any other - but I love to listen to it.

I'm very sad at the moment as my golden goddess of Kodaly pedagogy - one of the most wonderful teachers and pedagogues I am ever likely to meet and the person I try to emulate more than any other - died last Saturday aged 54 - so I can hear HER voice loud and clear in my head (replete with American accent and colloquialisms!).

QUOTE

I've just heard of someone who has done TWO DAYS TRAINING who is employed by a university as a Kodaly teacher..*FUME*

Hey! I just did six days' training at the Kodaly summer school this year: can I get a well-paid university job then?

Violinia

Keep the posts coming! I would have enrolled Viohazard for Kodaly or a similar program *had I known that it existed* instead of violin when he was small...not that he didn't love violin, but he sang all day long (still does, literally, I keep getting notes from his school teacher...), so singing would have been the perfect place to begin "formal" music.

I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that Kodaly is so hard to find even in the UK...and its a pity that there isn't (or didn't used to be, anyway) much in the way of accessible or self-taught materials. I ordered a book unseen from an overseas catalogue once, and found that it depended so heavily on some other, un-named book that it was totally useless. Just enough to tantalize...

So, MORE MATERIALS PLEASE, if any Kodaly teachers or course developers are out there!! Publish, publish, publish! Record, record, record!

... thank you!

QUOTE (Cyrilla @ Nov 19 2004, 11:51 PM)

I'm very sad at the moment as my golden goddess of Kodaly pedagogy - one of the most wonderful teachers and pedagogues I am ever likely to meet and the person I try to emulate more than any other - died last Saturday aged 54 - so I can hear HER voice loud and clear in my head (replete with American accent and colloquialisms!).

Ahhh, I'm sorry to hear that - so sad, and she was quite young.

I'm sorry about your teacher Cyrilla. Sounds like she achieved more and will be remembered longer than many, despite dying so relatively young.

Thanks all - there are tributes to the wonderful Eva Vendrei on both the British Kodaly Academy and the Kodaly Institute websites (www.britishkodalyacademy.org and www.kodaly-inst.hu). Someone described the Hungarian teachers to me as having 'exceptional souls' which just about says it all...Kodaly is often a profound spiritual experience as well as a musical one, and Eva embodied all that was great about music, teaching, humanity, spirituality,...

Allears - there ARE published Kodaly materials but it really isn't the sort of thing you can self-teach very effectively - the books are best used after attending courses.

A major BKA project at the moment is developing a musicianship curriculum and exam structure. Presently we only have three levels of solfege attainment (Elementary, Intermediate, Advanced) which are achieved after a year's part-time study (one evening a week). We want to break this down into smaller chunks so that children/young people who are studying in a variety of teaching and learning situations can also take exams.

Our current idea is that there would be one or two Foundation levels (for very young children or adults who are complete beginners), then grades 1-4 (equivalent to our current Elementary), grades 5-8 (Intermediate) and a Diploma (Advanced). Well, that's the idea! We're toiling away at this but it's very early days. WHEN we have this sorted we will be producing teachers' and pupils' books and materials.

So watch this space!!

Hi Cyrilla,

update as requested!

My little girl went today for her first lessons at JSP. She was really excited. There were boys there. She quite liked the music also. Actually she's just got up for a drink of water, so I will let you tell her what she thinks:

i was really excited becos it was my first day there.

awww how cute!

(sorry - I think that was largely copied from what I had written)

(although on coming out of this long post I see my daughter gets a vote of approval from Nat - thanks Nat!)

just to elaborate: an interesting mix of reactions (all positive!).


The whole thing is a hoot. My daughter didn't stop laughing most of the way through. And yet for a first lesson, it's really intensive - focussed game after game after game - those teachers must drink a lot of lucozade.

The kids didn't seem to have much inhibition. In the Kodaly one of the games is they get in a circle and start this rhythmn clapping and slapping their legs, and then they sing a verse-chorus song to the rhythmn where everyone sings the chorus and then the next child in the circle makes up the next verse and it moves round like that. They all just got on with it quite happily.

I thought parts of the Dalcroze was harder - for instance being given instructions to stand up/ sit down/ form a circle/ find your own space by little mottos played on the piano clearly required more focussed concentration than most were used to. Other parts were a complete joy, like moving around in different funny ways "eg stepping on sharp pebbles" to different lovely music on the piano.

1.5 hrs is about right. By the end of the session they were still enjoying it, but the concentration levels had gone right down so that a little song they all sang perfectly half way through was only got right by about 3 of them.

I would be interested to see how it develops - it reminds me (not directly, I hasten to add!) of "an officer and a gentleman" - this fairly random bunch of recruits embarking on goodness knows what, and presumably expected to come out slightly different at the other end of it all.

It's been quite an effort organisationally with us living in Chester, and my daughter going direct from school, so we are going to see how it all works out, but the early indications are quite positive!

One thing that struck me is, why aren't all music lessons like this? It clearly works best with a class of young children. When I was at school we just got told to bring a record in and the teacher put it on the record player.

QUOTE (zoda @ Jan 11 2005, 09:38 PM)

(although on coming out of this long post I see my daughter gets a vote of approval from Nat - thanks Nat!)

no problemo fellow chester person!!

QUOTE (zoda @ Jan 11 2005, 09:38 PM)

One thing that struck me is, why aren't all music lessons like this? It clearly works best with a class of young children. When I was at school we just got told to bring a record in and the teacher put it on the record player.

once again I am struck by how lucky I was on many, not all but many ways, with my first music and violin lessons.

Brilliant, zoda, I'm so pleased she enjoyed it. How old is she? Who does she have teaching her? (I think some of the RNCM students do the teaching as well as Karin and Luke who I mentioned previously.)

Keep me posted as to how she goes on!

Whoops, only just read your long post describing the classes.

Yes, indeed, WHY AREN'T ALL MUSIC LESSONS LIKE THIS????!!!

It's very interesting reading some posts by instrumental teachers who are of the opinion that it's terribly difficult to teach under-7s as they have such short attention spans - but as you've just said, these children managed to keep concentrating at least pretty well for ONE AND A HALF HOURS!!!

I agree that is too long and I'm not surprised the concentration waned - but it just shows that young children CAN concentrate for quite long periods if they are absorbed in what they are doing.

Part of Kodaly training is learning how to structure a lesson - how to build up to your main teaching point through careful preparation in the first part of the lesson, (which happens at the Golden Section, naturally!!) then how to gradually wind it down and bring it to a close. We're taught how to prepare for the introduction of the next bit of 'conscious learning' by preparing the children's unconscious learning so well that each new thing is only a tiny step (Kodaly said, 'Children learn best that which they already know').

We also learn how to vary activities so that there is always a refreshing one after one which requires deep concentration. Never wait until the children are tired of an activity before changing it - if you do you have left it too late and they are beyond the stage at which they will learn effectively.

Sorry, got a bit carried away! But it just struck me that what you said is very relevant to some recent posts by teachers.

Keep me POSTed...

Hi Cyrilla!

The Kodaly teacher was called Rachel and the Dalcroze teacher was called Bethan. Unfortunately I stuffed all the paperwork in my daughter's school bag and forgot to take it out when I got home - so I can't check for surnames until she gets back! My daughter has just turned 6 - you're supposed to be 6 when you start, but I think there's a degree of flexibility with that.

Incidentally it struck me that pretty much all the games were capable of description in writing (not to belittle the teachers who were fantastically focussed and energetic) - I appreciate this was only the first lesson, but is there a book you can buy which sets out what all these games are? Or is there a"force field" around this information to protect copyright/ royalties etc.?

Also I didn't go to the parents' class because I wanted to see for myself what the children's class involves - can you give me a rough idea of how the exercises are likely to develop over the year?

Thanks Cyrilla,

David

PS I've just realised you deal with the question about books in your post of Nov 21st - let us know when you publish those course materials!

PPS - There's a real "buzz" about the RNCM - there's a large open area in the middle, with loads of people beetling about here and there with instrument cases, and various strains of music wafting from different places, with lots of interesting looking rooms all over the place, and lots going on. Not a bad caff either (if you're hungry!)

David, RNCM sounds great! The Guildhall is a bit like that on Saturdays, too...

I think Bethan is Bethan James, who is really excellent. I've seen her work with children. I don't know Rachel...

Parents' class?? What is this? And are parents allowed/encouraged to watch all the children's classes? (At Guildhall we invite parents to watch on the last session of each term only.)

Re the games - there isn't a 'set list' and different teachers will use different games, although of course there are some wonderful ones that are used a lot by everyone, because they're so good!

I can't answer what they will be doing by the end of the year, because it depends a lot on the children and also the teacher (obviously!).

A lot of people go 'faster' than I do because the more I teach Kodaly the slower and broader I go, especially in the early stages. Kodaly identified three stages of learning - the unconscious experience, making conscious, and practice/reinforcement, so you should start to see all three happening in a lesson. Naturally in the very early stages it's almost all the first level - the teacher is putting in the experience upon which the children will build later.

So in the Kodaly class you should be seeing lots of games developing pulse and pitch in particular. Eventually these will develop into the ability to read, write and recognise rhythm notation and solfa/handsigns - but I can't really tell you quite WHEN this is going to happen!

The Dalcroze class will initially feature responding to musical signals (which you saw and thought was quite difficult - in my experience children learn these quite quickly and it is a wonderful way of developing aural awareness), responding in movement to the music heard (Dalcroze teachers have to be good improvisers, usually on piano) - sometimes this will be expressive/creative, sometimes more 'structured' as in moving to the pulse or stepping particular rhythm patterns.

Hope this helps a bit to explain! Do chat to the teachers themselves if you want to know more about where they're heading. One of the beauties of both these approaches is that they are based on certain principles so they are an APPROACH rather than a METHOD - ie teachers have a lot of flexibility to teach in a way that suits them and using a variety of material, so no one teacher will do it in exactly the same way as another. We ARE all singing from the same hymn sheet, but we are allowed to harmonise each verse in the way we want!!

Thanks again, Cyrilla!

I can't tell you much about the parents' class as I didn't go! I think it's to help us understand what the children are learning so we can support them. They said parents could go into the children's class instead for the first couple of lessons if they want to, but there only seemed to be about 3 parents in there - mainly there was a row of musos at the back. None of us seemed to distract the children. I wanted to see what it was like because it's a big commitment for us, and its harder to gauge whether it's all worth it purely from what you are told as opposed to actually seeing it in action, so I'm glad I sat in.

David

I really hope it IS going to be worth all your time and effort, David!

I can only say that when I see what our Year 6s at Guildhall can do, both instrumentally/physically/aurally I am just staggered - but VERY pleased and proud.

Lucky, lucky children...let's hope the RNCM course lives up to your expectations.

PS If it IS Bethan James please give her my regards - we taught together on the Dalcroze Summer School last year!

I have little doubt it will live up to my expectations! The question now will be whether the practical difficulties associated with the distance can be overcome on a week by week basis - I really hope they can!

Incidentally I have just re-visited the BKA website - has it had an overhaul? my vague recollection from last time was of a fairly rudimentary 2 page effort, whereas now there seems to be a lot more material than I recall from last time, set out in a colourful and attractive way - there's even a forum which appears to have just started!

I will say hello to Bethan from you next time I see her - although I'm not sure exactly when that will be!

Yes, the BKA website is quite different from the original one. I'm glad you found it more interesting!

I do hope the logistics of attending the JS Project are copable-with. We have one child who comes to Guildhall on Saturdays who lives in Rutland! And several more from Cambridge/Darkest Kent etc. And one of the Kodaly teachers (not teaching on the course any more) lives in DARLINGTON and used to come down to London just to do a day's teaching at Guildhall because she loved it so much (never made any money doing it!).

I'm currently running an adult Kodaly class one evening a week, in Sunny Croydon, and I have one student who comes from Camberley, one from Reading and two from Herne Bay/Whitstable.

So welcome to the Dedicated Traveller Club! Good luck and I really hope it works out for you and your daughter.

Wow Cyrilla! That really makes me feel better - most people I've told round here seem at best bemused.

I've copied the information about JSP and your libretto article to my daughter's school and to Christine Russell (MP for Chester) - I've asked her if she wouldn't mind sticking Kodaly on the National Curriculum, or alternatively just go and watch a couple of lessons so she can tell the inner circle how good it all is.

Oh, wow - thanks for passing on my article and the JSP info to your MP - BRILLIANT!!

I am currently teaching the children of a high-profile MP and there will be another child of a VERY important MP coming in September - so maybe I should try to exert some influence there too!

We have a major problem in this country in the way that music is perceived by society in general as well as the Powers-That-Be, and this naturally has an effect on what is taught in schools.

Music is considered to be a 'hobby subject' and is the only one where success at GCSE/A Level is the product of much of the student's knowledge and ability being provided OUT of school.

Primary teachers are expected to teach it up to age 11 and this is a very tall (if not impossible) order when most of them have had poor/non-existent/damaging music teaching themselves in the past.

Music should be seen as a discrete subject in its own right. Students who learn music daily (especially through an approach such as Kodaly which engages SO many parts of the brain) have been proved to do better academically. They are also more fulfilled and rounded people. As teachers we need to see the benefits of good music education from a humanitarian, as well as musical, point of view.

So the more of us who lobby those in power about the sorry state of music education in this country, the better!

Many thanks again.

PS Please tell Christine Russell that I'm MORE than happy for her to come and see some of my classes, whether at Guildhall or in state primaries!

Hi, I've PM'd you twice, and yet again, apologise for not reading the whole thread! As an ex-JSP student teacher, I can't advocate it enough. It is an absolutely amazing opportunity for the children, and they become amazingly rounded musicians through their involvment in the Dalcroze, Kodaly, Big Instrumental and Small Instrumental lessons. Bethan James is an inspirational teacher and I presume you mean Rachel Moore who is lovely aswell and an excellent teacher.

Cyrilla, you are right, that the students teach. The RNCM is joined with MMU to provide a unique course that offers both classroom and instrumental teacher training, along with Kodaly and Dalcroze tuition, with the opportunity to complete the Dalcroze certificate. The PGCE use the JSP as part of their teaching practice in Instrumental, Dalcroze and Kodaly and cannot pass their PGCE without having passed this section aswell. All in all it makes for a winning combination!

Quick update, Cyrilla,

I got a very nice long letter back from Christine Russell today saying she had written to Derek Twigg MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of state within the department for Education and Skills, who has particular responsibility for the Primary School Curriculum.

She also included various info, including info about a thing called the "music manifesto", which I understand to be the vehicle created in Summer 2004 for introducing a £30,000,000 extra injection into music education. One of the ideas is that everyone gets a chance to learn a musical instrument. No mention of pre-instrumental training or Kodaly or Dalcroze. There is a website at musicmanifesto.co.uk, where they are encouraging people to become "signatories" although I'm not sure where that takes you. However there is a "contact us" and also a "steering group" whose membership is intended to rotate to enable fresh ideas to be brought on board. It would be great if one of your alumni could actually be encouraged to get into the steering group and make sure everyone knows about Kodaly. If introduced I suspect it could drastically reduce the disappointment/frustration/dropout rate of those who do start musical instruments under the scheme, and drastically increase the proportion of children who develop an enduring interest in music, instead of bored distaste.

QUOTE (zoda @ Jan 27 2005, 10:15 PM)

Derek Twigg PM

please dont ask me why, but i found thast hilarious. oh dear time to go i think!

Sorry Nat! It should have said MP, not PM! I've edited it now. Glad you could join us though!

Woooo, thanks David - your MP sounds good news and let's see what happens with Mr Twigg *chortle*

I do know about the music manifesto and I just think that AGAIN we've got everything the wrong way round.

Investing oodles of dosh into 'giving every child the opportunity to learn an instrument' is NOT the answer to improving music education in this country!

Kodaly realised that not everyone CAN learn to play an instrument, for a wide variety of reasons - but, like Dalcroze, saw that the way to music education for the masses was through using the natural instruments of voice and body. Using these approaches is such a natural and 'organic' way of learning. Children - as you're seeing with your daughter - love the classes and learn so much. The BIGGEST thing they learn is to have enthusiasm and a love for music; this, combined with their increasing facility with reading, listening and understanding music means that these children are far more likely to a) want to learn an instrument and are much less likely to give it up.

So - am up to my eyes atm but when I have time to put my mind to this properly I will certainly investigate the website and see if I or the BKA can put our two-pennyworth in!

When these plans were first mooted, one of our most senior and most experienced members wrote letters to the main broadsheets, stating the view that, as I said above, children should learn MUSIC through their voices and bodies before learning an instrument and that the money would be better spent on training teachers to do this.

Not one of them published his letter...

QUOTE (Cyrilla @ Jan 27 2005, 11:51 PM)

When these plans were first mooted, one of our most senior and most experienced members wrote letters to the main broadsheets, stating the view that, as I said above, children should learn MUSIC through their voices and bodies before learning an instrument and that the money would be better spent on training teachers to do this. Not one of them published his letter...

When will they ever Twigg?

I think we need to insert a senior Kodaly advocate into the steering group (which I think is only just getting off the ground, and hasn't spent any money yet) - this should be possible as the stated aim is to keep the membership rotating to give new voices a chance to speak. Junior Strings Project shows that even with a stated aim of getting everyone playing an instrument, there is huge benefit in a year of pre-instrumental training which can then continue alongside the instrumental learning.

Well, more brownie points for Christine Russell - she's now sent me a letter from Derek Twigg saying "we already know about Kodaly and we are trying to incorporate some of its ideals- honest guv!" (that's my interpretation anyway).

I had a bit of a "Kodaly Do you see the light" moment last week in my daughter's cello practise. She's only been having lessons for 30 mins a fortnight, and we've been taking things slowly (and only just recently got into a habit of a bit of practise every day). Accordingly we were at the stage where her teacher was asking her to look at some second finger note pieces for next lesson. For the first finger notes, after initially trying to do without, he has put sellotape on the cello as a finger guide, but there was no extra bit of sellotape for the second finger. I was wondering "how do I explain about where the second finger should go".

It then occurred to me that from the open string to the second finger is a minor third, and my daughter has spend a considerable part of the last term learning a whole host of songs based entirely around the interval of a minor third. I said to her "it's just like...." and there followed a discussion of all the songs it was just like, which she then tried to play. I'm not saying she was immediately able to nail every second finger note effortlessly, but it is an enormous help to have something clearly in mind that you are aiming for - so much so that I am now trying to remember how I was taught to distinguish a right note from a wrong note without such an obvious and helpful starting point.

Oh, wow, good for Christine Russell and Derek Twigg!

We just have to keep on this 'drip, drip' approach...

And EXCELLENT news about your daughter's cello breakthrough! If you sing something before playing it it means you have internalised the sound - and therefore, yes, you know what the sound is that you are trying to make.

Well, I guess you naturally have great aural acuity it's not difficult to know what constitutes an 'in-tune' or 'out-of-tune' note, but there must be so many children learning who have no idea of this...singing being the key!!

Hey, zoda!

I've just found out that my wonderful boss on the String Training Programme at the Guildhall is going to the RNCM in September and will be overseeing the Junior Strings Project.

Our loss, JSP's/RNCM's gain...watch this space...

QUOTE (Cyrilla @ Mar 25 2005, 11:16 PM)

Hey, zoda! I've just found out that my wonderful boss on the String Training Programme at the Guildhall is going to the RNCM in September and will be overseeing the Junior Strings Project. Our loss, JSP's/RNCM's gain...watch this space...

How exciting!

Mind you, there must already be someone pretty ace running JSP at the moment - I wonder where they're off to.

Hmmm...musical chairs I guess...

We've just had a really lovely end of term report from RNCM for my daughter. It's quite short so I'm going to put it here:

Kodaly

[She] has progressed really well! She is picking up new songs and applying them to solfa with ease! She is always keen and attentive and willing to answer questions. Her singing has improved significantly and she can perform a melody on her own to the rest of the group, maintaining good tone and accurate intonation. She clearly enjoys the lesson and gets on well with the others in the class.

Dalcroze

[She] clearly has a natural flare for movement! She always fully engages herself with each activity and is able to express what she hears in the music through movement with real imagination. [She] has good co-ordination and excellent elevation - her jumping is highly impressive! It is great to see [her] enjoying herself - she often has a smile on her face! May she continue to improve next year having established a very good foundation in Dalcroze.


Since the project starts in January the above report comes after only two terms on JSP. The comment about a significant improvement in singing is something we've all noticed, and even my initially sceptical mother agrees with this quite enthusiastically.


A big thank you to Violinia, Christine Morris and Cyrilla, without whose enthusiasm for Kodaly I would never have heard of any of this!

PS not quite sure what "applying them to Solfa with ease" means.

PS not quite sure what "applying them to Solfa with ease" means.


It means she sings the words - for example to this song

"Cinderella dressed in yellow, went upstairs to kiss her fella..." etc

and can then effortlessly sing it with the "solfa" words - in this case - "soh soh mi mi soh soh mi mi..."etc while also doing the relevent hand sign for each solfa


Hope she knows this song and can demonstrate! One of my big kids (now 17 - how did that happen?) did JSP a long, long time ago.

Hey thanks violincjj!

I've just realised how out of touch I must be with where she's up to. I thought she was just starting to learn a few handsigns, but she didn't seem to know all of them. I presume the comment on the report means that some of the very simple songs based around a couple of notes are now being sung in Solfa, which I didn't know.

Does your big kid still enjoy music?

[quote=Cyrilla,Jan 12 2005, 11:41 AM]
David, RNCM sounds great! The Guildhall is a bit like that on Saturdays, too...

I think Bethan is Bethan James, who is really excellent. I've seen her work with children. I don't know Rachel...

I've met Rachel at Lake District recently though she was not teaching then as she has just had a baby not long ago and was having a break. She's a trained Kodaly specialist. She's lovely!

I don't know what my Sept/Oct Kodaly teacher will be like come autumn. Don't even know whether she's qualified to teach Kodaly though we were told she did Kodaly for 4 years at Trinity. Hope she's OK. It'd be nice if I could do it for say, 2 years before I take up the guitar or have some serious singing lessons.

How does one figure out anyway if one's teacher is suitably qualified?

Oh yes, I've had a serious look at 2 Kodaly books on the fundamentals and yes, they are pretty much unhelpful for a non-keyboard player or non-teacher! We do need student-oriented books to review what we will learn/have learnt!

Please?

[quote=donnellyuna,Jan 21 2005, 11:37 PM]
Hi, I've PM'd you twice, and yet again, apologise for not reading the whole thread! As an ex-JSP student teacher, I can't advocate it enough. It is an absolutely amazing opportunity for the children, and they become amazingly rounded musicians through their involvment in the Dalcroze, Kodaly, Big Instrumental and Small Instrumental lessons. Bethan James is an inspirational teacher and I presume you mean Rachel Moore who is lovely aswell and an excellent teacher.

I have to say that I'm VERY disappointed with the music manifesto of this government as they are only interested in large scale and large-classed "instrumental" lessons. They are not interested in musicianship classes at all! I know this from folks in the music service. Actually, come to think of it, there aren't proper Kodaly and Dalcroze lessons at JG, RCM or RAM, either. My daughter who is exceptionally committed to her music will be going to auditions for 2 of these institutions next year but I already know from enquiries made that these junior courses have no serious ROOM for Kodaly though they said such is "in part" incorporated in the choir training. She will miss out... Not good enough!

Hey thanks violincjj!

I've just realised how out of touch I must be with where she's up to. I thought she was just starting to learn a few handsigns, but she didn't seem to know all of them. I presume the comment on the report means that some of the very simple songs based around a couple of notes are now being sung in Solfa, which I didn't know.

Does your big kid still enjoy music?

Oh yes....very much so. He is trying for a Cambridge organ scholarship for next year and plays piano/violin/trumpet all to Gd 8+ level plus sings and conducts. Amusing to recall that he failed the Junior RNCM audition many years back.....!

that's wonderful to hear.

it certainly doesn't sound like they put you off at JSP!

JSP IS wonderful. I enjoyed the parents classes loads and learned SO much from them that I use in my own teaching.

Hi

I would be interested to know how children manage their time, if they attend one of the junior saturday classes for the day.

My daughter (8yrs old) will take Associated Board G5 theory on Thurs this wk, G3 violin on 22nd, G4 piano on 28th and G3 singing on 30th Nov... a frighteningly action-packed month for her, which she is totally taking in her stride. As a consequence, right now, with everything looming, she is practising for 1 + 1/2 hrs per day before she goes to school.

Unfortunately she also RAD ballets to G3 standard, ISTD taps and modern theatre to G5 standard, is a national finalist for ISTD ballroom, latin and freestyle disco and horse-rides and reads like mad in her spare time.

We are trying to work out what is best for her. At school, she is by far top of her class and finds everything easy. However, homework (whilst still v. simple to do) is increasing in volume now (yr 4) and we can forsee that something will eventually have to give, in order for this simple homework to take precedence.

How do children whho attend the saturday schools cope for time? Right now, my daughter has private lessons after school and on Saturdays for her various interests. But it is time-consuming, with serious practice alongside.

Any answers anyone?

I start this by saying that my daughter does NOT attend an all day saturday school so none of this will directly answer your question .... however she does attend a three hour music session six weeks in every term on Saturday mornings so we have some experience of trying to cram too much in. However neither of our children are doing nearly so many extras as your daughter - she deserves commendation for doing so many things to such a high standard.

My slightly random comments are :

• There must be some efficiencies gained in attending a Saturday music school : most of your lessons take place there rather than sprinkled across the week - with all the attendant drop-offs and collection. For us we get group lessons, orchestra and theory all dealt with on Saturday morning - we also consider that chunk of playing to be the practice session for the day!

• As for homework - It is all too easy to make the extra-curricular activities take over the time that should be given to all important academic work and to cram school work into the last corners of the day - we should remember that extra curricular activities are extra, and generally not core. It is easy to trivialise schoolwork with the onslaught of extras ... we have certainly managed to do this on occasion. Academic work, reading, the whole world of secondary school subjects etc are all very exciting and shouldn't be diminished and squeezed out.

• Practice in the morning: while our children were at primary school all practice was done before school. It was brilliant and worked really well. It became impossible once they were at Secondary school - earlier starts, longer journeys etc.

• Practice: once we realised that practice couldn't be done in the morning - and that there was far less time to practice we had to start making practice much more focussed and efficient. As ever I turned to reading books (a good way of putting something out of our mind) - two were particularly helpful : The Practice Revolution by Philip Johnston (available from http://www.practicespot.com) and Teaching from the Balance Point by Ed Kreitman.

• What gets kept on ? in the end it is up to the child to decide what they keep on / give up. We have found that some activities have finite interest - the child learns a lot, and then reaches the point at which they feel that they have learnt enough. Possibly early successes aren't repeated, or an inspirational teacher retires / leaves and the activity becomes less attractive. Sometimes they just grow out of things.

• holiday courses are very good.

Good luck to your daughter for her raft of exams this month. You'll all be glad when November is over with I imagine.