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Holz Gedeckt
QUOTE(Swell Box @ Jun 9 2009, 02:41 PM) *

There are occasions when it is easier to play a peice with hands on two separate manuals, (Repton in four part comes to mind - to avoid getting fingers tangled),

No! Play it on one manual, and just get used to the inner parts crossing.

I'm not sure that it's in four parts either.... unsure.gif
primrose
Seems to me that splitting a digital keyboard, and allocating different samples to each half, would serve some of these purposes too.
Holz Gedeckt
QUOTE(primrose @ Jun 9 2009, 03:32 PM) *

Seems to me that splitting a digital keyboard, and allocating different samples to each half, would serve some of these purposes too.

Unfortunately, though, it would give compass constraints which wouldn't be apparent on an organ. It really isn't the same thing at all. smile.gif
mel2
When I have erred in this way, it has been done in order to bring out the melody in certain Mission Praise -type hymns. Because of the uniform key weighting you can't emphasise the melody like you can with a piano. Not such a problem with a homophonic texture but with a Kendrick tune it can all form a mush. Having a slightly softer accompaniment seems to do the trick, even if it is not de rigeur.
Holz Gedeckt
QUOTE(mel2 @ Jun 9 2009, 04:02 PM) *

When I have erred in this way, it has been done in order to bring out the melody in certain Mission Praise -type hymns. Because of the uniform key weighting you can't emphasise the melody like you can with a piano. Not such a problem with a homophonic texture but with a Kendrick tune it can all form a mush. Having a slightly softer accompaniment seems to do the trick, even if it is not de rigeur.

Do you mean that you solo out the melody part alone? If so, that is a very worthwhile technique to acquire!
mel2
QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Jun 9 2009, 04:08 PM) *

QUOTE(mel2 @ Jun 9 2009, 04:02 PM) *

When I have erred in this way, it has been done in order to bring out the melody in certain Mission Praise -type hymns. Because of the uniform key weighting you can't emphasise the melody like you can with a piano. Not such a problem with a homophonic texture but with a Kendrick tune it can all form a mush. Having a slightly softer accompaniment seems to do the trick, even if it is not de rigeur.

Do you mean that you solo out the melody part alone? If so, that is a very worthwhile technique to acquire!

I'm not just a pretty face.... smile.gif
primrose
QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Jun 9 2009, 03:51 PM) *

QUOTE(primrose @ Jun 9 2009, 03:32 PM) *

Seems to me that splitting a digital keyboard, and allocating different samples to each half, would serve some of these purposes too.

Unfortunately, though, it would give compass constraints which wouldn't be apparent on an organ. It really isn't the same thing at all. smile.gif

Sorry, I still don't understand. Do you mean that the range of pitches available from each half of the keyboard would be narrower than the range available from one manual of an organ? If so, that may well be true, though the split point could be anywhere - it doesn't have to be exactly in the middle. You could have a big "manual" which you use most of the time, and a little one for occasional use.

I realise it's not the same thing. But the original question was about how much difference there is between playing a real organ and using the organ sounds on a digital piano. One answer given was that you would only have one manual and therefore only one registration. I don't know how much of a problem this would be, if it were true: my point is that it isn't really true. I'm sure there are many other reasons why a digital piano is no substitute for the real thing.
hello_cello
the physical action of swapping between the 'two manuals' would be different, as you would have to move down the keyboard, instead of below/above.
Also the action is different, no touch sensitivity etc.
Holz Gedeckt
QUOTE(primrose @ Jun 9 2009, 05:00 PM) *

QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Jun 9 2009, 03:51 PM) *

QUOTE(primrose @ Jun 9 2009, 03:32 PM) *

Seems to me that splitting a digital keyboard, and allocating different samples to each half, would serve some of these purposes too.

Unfortunately, though, it would give compass constraints which wouldn't be apparent on an organ. It really isn't the same thing at all. smile.gif

Sorry, I still don't understand. Do you mean that the range of pitches available from each half of the keyboard would be narrower than the range available from one manual of an organ? If so, that may well be true, though the split point could be anywhere - it doesn't have to be exactly in the middle. You could have a big "manual" which you use most of the time, and a little one for occasional use.

I realise it's not the same thing. But the original question was about how much difference there is between playing a real organ and using the organ sounds on a digital piano. One answer given was that you would only have one manual and therefore only one registration. I don't know how much of a problem this would be, if it were true: my point is that it isn't really true. I'm sure there are many other reasons why a digital piano is no substitute for the real thing.

This is much easier to demonstrate than to try and explain, but I'll have a go! biggrin.gif

Say for example you were playing a piece which required a tune soloing out on a Trumpet stop. The tune might go down to, say, middle D. The accompaniment might rise above that note. You could easily facilitate that with more than one manual, but not so on a split keyboard.
Swell Box
QUOTE(primrose @ Jun 9 2009, 05:00 PM) *


I realise it's not the same thing. But the original question was about how much difference there is between playing a real organ and using the organ sounds on a digital piano. One answer given was that you would only have one manual and therefore only one registration. I don't know how much of a problem this would be, if it were true: my point is that it isn't really true. I'm sure there are many other reasons why a digital piano is no substitute for the real thing.



I really do feel it would be best if the OP, (or anyone else here with the same curiosity) were to find a real pipe organ, and to try playing it for themselves. I realise that finding an organ to play on is not always easy nowadays, but I am sure it would be a very worthwhile experience. biggrin.gif

We could postulate endlessly here about the merits of split v conventional manuals, but there is only one way to really find out. And the experience of playing on a real organ in a large building is just 'something else', so I feel it would be a great shame if anyone here missed out on that opportunity because they had persuaded themselves (or been persuaded) than an electronic box of tricks with headphones was an adequte substitute.

Go for it I say! biggrin.gif
primrose
QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Jun 9 2009, 05:26 PM) *
Say for example you were playing a piece which required a tune soloing out on a Trumpet stop. The tune might go down to, say, middle D. The accompaniment might rise above that note. You could easily facilitate that with more than one manual, but not so on a split keyboard.

But, as I've already pointed out, many (probably most) electronic keyboards will allow you not only to split the keyboard but also to change the range of each section. So the "accompaniment" section could include part (or all) of the range of the "tune" section.

I am not suggesting for a moment that an "electronic box of tricks with headphones" is an adequate substitute for a real organ, any more than it is an adequate substitute for a real piano. All I would say is that it's marginally better than not playing organ music at all. Does anyone disagree with that?
Holz Gedeckt
QUOTE(primrose @ Jun 9 2009, 07:18 PM) *

QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Jun 9 2009, 05:26 PM) *
Say for example you were playing a piece which required a tune soloing out on a Trumpet stop. The tune might go down to, say, middle D. The accompaniment might rise above that note. You could easily facilitate that with more than one manual, but not so on a split keyboard.

But, as I've already pointed out, many (probably most) electronic keyboards will allow you not only to split the keyboard but also to change the range of each section. So the "accompaniment" section could include part (or all) of the range of the "tune" section.

But not at the same time! If you play two middle Ds, one after the other, the split keyboard wouldn't know if you wanted one on a 'Trumpet' stop, and the other as an accompaniment, would it? rolleyes.gif smile.gif
river
QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Jun 9 2009, 07:38 PM) *

But not at the same time! If you play two middle Ds, one after the other, the split keyboard wouldn't know if you wanted one on a 'Trumpet' stop, and the other as an accompaniment, would it? rolleyes.gif smile.gif


yes it would, because instead of playing two middle D, you'd play one middle D, in the 'top' range, and one D which is an octave below middle D, in the 'low' range. since you've configured it to transpose the low range up by one octave (or whatever), both notes will be middle D, but with different patches.
Holz Gedeckt
QUOTE(river @ Jun 9 2009, 07:40 PM) *

QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Jun 9 2009, 07:38 PM) *

But not at the same time! If you play two middle Ds, one after the other, the split keyboard wouldn't know if you wanted one on a 'Trumpet' stop, and the other as an accompaniment, would it? rolleyes.gif smile.gif


yes it would, because instead of playing two middle D, you'd play one middle D, in the 'top' range, and one D which is an octave below middle D, in the 'low' range. since you've configured it to transpose the low range up by one octave (or whatever), both notes will be middle D, but with different patches.

biggrin.gif

Thanks for that clarification.

However, isn't is just easier to do it on two manuals? wink.gif
primrose
QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Jun 9 2009, 07:44 PM) *
However, isn't is just easier to do it on two manuals? wink.gif
Undoubtedly - if you can find an organ to play. Which is where we came in.
Swell Box
QUOTE(primrose @ Jun 10 2009, 12:17 PM) *

QUOTE(Holz Gedeckt @ Jun 9 2009, 07:44 PM) *
However, isn't is just easier to do it on two manuals? wink.gif
Undoubtedly - if you can find an organ to play. Which is where we came in.


I would have hoped there would be someone on this forum who could offer an hour on a proper pipe organ within striking distance of London?

Alternatively, try getting in contact with a local Organ Association via the IAO . Local associations regularly organise organ playing days and tutorial sessions, and should be able to find an organ, and possibly a tutor for you.

SB
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