I'm learning piano, and to be honest the only "organ" piece I've learned is Mendellsohn's Wedding March.

What I'd like to know is what's so different about playing organ? The closest I get is the Cathedral Organ patch on my Roland JV1080 which sounds amazing, but I guess playing a full blown church organ must be a bit of a buzz What's the difference between just playing an organ patch on a synth and an actual organ itself apart from the footpedals?

Just curious

The volume at which you play isn't dictated by how hard you press, as the wind pressure is always the same - you change it by closing shutters usually i think called 'Swell Shutters' (although bigger organs will have more, and therfore have others names also), you do this will a pedal just above the pedal board. The other way to change the volume is to add or take out 'sto' meaning, opening more pipes or closing them off. The repotoire is very different also, and in most hymn's mainly chords.
I think those are the main differences, i've never actually played organ, but am obsessed and now that mum has sold one of her shops, i might be getting lessons soon


*follow this link, then near the top, click 'watch an organ tutorial' its rather helpful and interesting!*

Rather a lot different.
hc is correct in that the volume is not controlled by how hard you depress the keys. There are those who can describe all the technicalities at great length. It is a lifetime's study if it interests you.

The only way you can sustain a note on a pipe organ is to hold down the key (or the pedal) so there is no call for a sustaining pedal like the one you probably have on your instrument. You do have your feet to help you though, and I think most people start with pieces with very little pedal change, or just employ it at cadences.

The sound you make will depend on which set of stops you engage - and for the unwary this is the scary bit because you can inadvertently catch a thumb piston and either lose most of the volume or (even worse) bring down a seeming cataclysm that will cause a few coronaries or loosen a few fillings. (I exaggerate of course but it is a tad embarrassing when it happens)

It is tempting to use piano music to begin with, and if you are using manuals only, you can get away with this some of the time; you have to be aware (coming back to the earlier observation about volume) that all notes will be as loud as each other so a bit of adaptation is needed so that the melody is brought out - this is usually managed by setting one manual rather softer than the other and then tinkering until you achieve a musically satisfying outcome.

This is where having a teacher saves you making mistakes and getting into bad habits - I played for 15 years before having a teacher and have probably acquired more vices than most, so don't follow my suggestions too closely. My excuse is that I was presented with weddings and funerals just weeks after beginning to explore the organ so desperate measures were called for and they stuck.

In a way you are an entire orchestra in one capsule so it is completely exhilarating when it finally comes together and works well. OTOH if it goes wrong ......

The instrument is at the mercy of the environment and may start to whine or hoot because of some internal fault or the bellows drying out. All great fun (not!)

Your Roland will probably only have one keyboard and therefore a single registration so at best it can only give you a snapshot of how a piece will sound on a pipe organ.

Time for me to bow out and wait for more knowledgeable contributions.

This is indeed the popular perception, but actually it is entirely the wrong way to think of the organ. The organ is a musical instrument in its own right, just as unique as any other. To think of it as some sort of substitute orchestra is to encourage and perpetuate a flawed aesthetic, because there is simply no way the organ can match the flexibility and subtlety of expression that an orchestra can produce. There are people who can and do play orchestral transcriptions on the organ and the results are often brilliant and breathtaking, but that is beside the point. Compare any performance of orchestral music played by an orchestra and an organist and the orchestra will invariably come off better - and I do not exempt Bach's concerto arrangements either! The organ needs to be approached and treated on its own terms with its own aesthetic. However, this is a very controversial, not to say emotive, topic among organists which will promptly draw forth howls of protest from the many who disagree with me.

I would say that the organ differs from the piano principally in the following ways:

1. As already said, weight of touch makes no difference to the volume.
2. Volume is controlled primarily by the combinations of stops you use.
3. The lack of "key sensitivity" means that the organ is inherently unexpressive. A degree of expression, albeit rather crude, is achievable through the use of the swell pedal(s). A swell pedal controls a set of shutters like a window blind on a box, inside which are the pipes of certain stops. Opening the shutters lets more sound out so that simple crescendos and diminuendos can be obtained. In practice one can use the swell pedal(s) together with stop changes to engineer a crescendo from the softest stops to full organ.
4. When you lift a key on the organ the note does not decay like it does on a piano. Notes start and stop abruptly. There is no sustaining pedal on an organ either. Because of this you need to play the organ with a basically legato touch. That is not to say you never play staccato or detached - far from it - but a seamless legato is the point of departure, as it were.

These are not the only differences, but they are the main ones.

Not quite true, I think, because most digital pianos allow you to split the keyboard somewhere in the middle and use a different sound for each half. But the two halves won't overlap, so it isn't really a very satisfactory arrangement.

But how on earth would that help it to sound like an organ?


Purist!

Not on our church organ! The Eb above middle C likes to continue playing if you use the 8' Chimney flute on the swell, and a lot of the notes in the top two octaves of the 4' Clarion sound like old fashioned train whistles because they continue after you release the note and die away making a horrid noise. I've told the organ tuner twice, but he never fixes them!

Jacob.

QED!

Ah, but you see, I don't see it as a question of authenticity. I just listened critically and made my own mind up about what sort of music works most musically on which sorts of organs.


On the other hand, perhaps you ought to ask him to make them a bit worse. Might be the quickest way to a rebuild!

Then again, they might just get an electronic.

One point nobody has yet mentioned is that no two pipe organs are the same. Indeed, for me this is all part of the fascination of the instrument.

I appreciate that all musical instruments have subtle differences in the quality and volume of sound that they produce, but pipe organs can vary from simple, single manual instruments with perhaps four or five stops, to huge instruments with five or six manuals and literally hundreds of stops. So, on the one hand the organist playing a small instrument may have very little choice in the volume or texture of sound that they produce, whilst the organist at the console of a large concert or cathedral organ might need to spend several hours setting the 'registration (stop combinations) to produce the desired sound for a single recital piece.

Even outwardly identical instruments will have their own character, whether it is subtle differences in voicing of pipes, or (more often), squawks, whistles or ciphers (stuck notes) following years of neglect. 'Voicing' is the art of making organ pipes so they each make the required sound, and some builders do this better than others. One thing you will soon learn is that whilst stops of the same name on different organs will produce a similar sound, it will rarely be the same.

There are also several different types of 'action' (the mechanism that couples the keys to the actual pipes), which means that some instruments (usually with electric coupling) will have a very light touch, whilst others, with mechanical actions can be very heavy to play, especially if manuals are coupled together and lots of stops are drawn.

Learning the idiosyncrasies of individual organs is all part of the joy of playing the instrument. Creating wonderful sounds from a humble instrument is also a very satisfying experience. Why not get in touch with a local organ association to find out how and where you can have a play? I am sure you will enjoy it.

SB

Thanks for the replies, interesting reading

I'll have a look to see if there's a local association in the near future when things are a bit less manic in other areas of my life

By enabling you to use two different "organ sounds". It's better than nothing, but only just.

You could try a virtual organ which would give you a better idea than a patch on your module. There's a free download or you can demo commercial software. It's still not quite there in terms of playing the real thing but when you consider that lots of electronic organs use similar technology coupled with cheap plastic keyboards - it's pretty close to playing one of those (which some churches do use!).

But using a split keyboard won't do anything to make it sound like an organ!

i believe mel's point was that on a real organ, one would, for example, use two manuals with a different registration on each in order to vary dynamics. with a single (digital) keyboard, this isn't possible, because you only have one keyboard. sp, as a workaround, you can split the keyboard as if the lower half were being played with one registration, and the upper half with another. this would allow you to simulate playing on two manuals; but since they don't overlap, it is not ideal.

as to whether a digital piano patch would sound at all like a real organ; well, that's a different matter.

And yet, from listening to my husband's playing (I suspect Vox, we have met each other, through him, over dinner once) and talking to him, I understand that expression can be found through very subtle differences in timing - drama can be created by sounding a chord infinitessimally early or late, for instance. This means that an 'inherently unexpressive' instrument can be made to have a very different character in one organist's hands (and feet) compared to another's even with the same stop registration. I listened to a very interesting lecture recital on Mendelssohn recently, where it was suggested that it was his understanding of these subtleties of timing as an organist that is key to unlocking the expression in his piano music.

This is absolutely true. The player has to learn how to give the illusion of expression. It is a fundamental part of the organist's art.

It took a while, but the penny's just dropped, I think! "The Ship", perchance, in a pretty little village with an ugly name?

But the organ doesn't work like that at all....

The building (acoustic) is also a big factor in what any given instrument will sound like. If you could lift an organ out of building X and put it in building Y you would be faced with a different beast entirely...

Or if you move it about the building.

At best, any electronic instrument in a home environment is a poor substitute for a proper pipe organ in a large church, and as such is only of limited use for practice purposes.

Sorry to bring trains into this forum again, but (IMVHO) making organ sounds on an electronic keyboard is like driving the Flying Scotsman on a computer simulator.

SB

A peripheral, but maybe useful, comment.

I find that my piano skills don't transfer particularly well to the organ, but spending some time with an organ (especially Bach fugues) improves my piano playing no end - because it teaches the importance of releasing notes at the right instant. You can be a bit sloppy with this on the piano and get away with it, but not so on the organ.

It might be significant that Beethoven, reputedly a magnificent pianist, first learned his keyboard skills at the organ.

From SB
"At best, any electronic instrument in a home environment is a poor substitute for a proper pipe organ in a large church, and as such is only of limited use for practice purposes. "

Agreed!
When I bought my digital organ, I found the playing of it wholly unsatisfactory in my home. The only way to experience anything like the fuller sounds available, without disturbing the neighbours, was to play through headphones. This reinforced that which I already knew - that a considerable part of the organistic experience is the ambience of an appropriate building and its acoustics.
Within a fairly short time, I had obtained permission from the DAC to keep and use the instrument in one of our churches.
Although it is almost an entry level instrument, (Viscount Vivace 40), the addition of only about £600 of sound reinforcement kit, has produced an output which copes comfortably in a large building for the occasional service away from the pipe organ.
I now use home practise simply for note bashing and for which I have a Roland C190. There is enough variety of sounds available to keep me interested, and it is an instrument which I can transport readily to the old folks homes where we hold regular 'services'.

Chris Baker - Durham UK

I do sometimes wonder how often the various 'sound effects' on electronic pianos actually get used once the instruments have been sold?

I am sure that having '500 voices' or whatever helps shift boxes out of showrooms, but in reality I suspect that most are permanently set to 'Grand Piano 1' once they get home. Other than dedicated electronic organs such as Chris's Viscount, the organ sounds on most electronic instruments are pitiful in my view, and are of no use in helping select registration.

However, I think there is also a wider point here; that whilst some people report having great difficulty finding a pipe organ to play on, many pipe organs are suffering expensive, and sometimes terminal problems owing to lack of use! In this regard, there is a wonderful four manual H&H organ in a city hall not far from where I live, which I suspect was too precious to be played by 'just anybody', and so was never played at all from one year to the next. Add in the effects of central heating and the instrument is now unplayable as a concert organ, and is reportedly in need of £¾ million work to restore it to full working order.

I have often felt that it would be helpful if clerics, churchwardens and PCCs could be made aware that organs need to be played to keep them in good working order; and that with varied stop selection an organ benefits just as much from being played by an adventurous beginner as a cathedral organist.

Better still, would it not be possible to have a database of playable organs available to responsible organists, with contact details of the person responsible?

Oh dear, I am thinking outside of my swell box again. I had better get back inside.

SB

^^
There is a interesting article in this weeks Church Times about a child who is having problems finding an organ to practice on. If a cherubic little lad like that with a journalist for a mum is struggling, what hope for hoodie-wearers?

.......... which is precisely why I was wondering whether an article in the Church Times, and/or the various Diocesan Newspapers might help everyone.

The church needs organists, organists need organs, and organs need organists to play them!

Now, I am looking for a suitable title. How about "Does Your Organ Get Enough Use?"

SB

Yes - interesting read. One of my fellow -choristers brought the article along last Sunday.

I gave up teaching the organ a few years ago because of problems of this kind -

'we can't have every Tom #### or Harry having access to the organ'

and yes I do quote - this was said to me by a churchwarden.
The students in question were middle aged people, a businessman and an ex-nun.

What hope for hoodies indeed!

Last year (I think it was) the Incorporated Association of Organists asked each of its member associations to submit a list of organs available for practice, with access details and contact points. The idea was that it would be of use to organists visiting an unfamiliar area who wanted somewhere to practice, but obviously it could be of wider interest. I am not sure what sort of response they got; I have heard nothing about it since.

From SB
I do sometimes wonder how often the various 'sound effects' on electronic pianos actually get used once the instruments have been sold?
I am sure that having '500 voices' or whatever helps shift boxes out of showrooms, but in reality I suspect that most are permanently set to 'Grand Piano 1' once they get home. Other than dedicated electronic organs such as Chris's Viscount, the organ sounds on most electronic instruments are pitiful in my view, and are of no use in helping select registration.

Quite right - and I sometimes wonder whether people buy one of these 'bells and whistles, all-singing, all dancing' devices with thoughts of learning to play, and end up abandoning the thing due to the hugely complex silliness of the instrument. All they end up learning is how to operate the machine itself - knowledge which doesn't carry through to any other instrument,or, provide any generally recognisable musical skill. A young person in our congregation has bought one of those Yamaha Tyros (absolute top-of-the-range) keyboards, complete with sound reinforcement kit and all the bits, but seems not to want to move beyond the 'Strings' overlay on 'piano' sounds. Thankfully, she is also taking formal piano lessons and aiming for the Grades. I am trying to persuade her to have a go on the organs, and I think she may soon do so.
Perhaps approaching paradox, I find that the digital organ holds less fears for the pianist or electronic keyboard player than does the rather boring, under-specced, H & H pipe organ.

However, I think there is also a wider point here; that whilst some people report having great difficulty finding a pipe organ to play on, many pipe organs are suffering expensive, and sometimes terminal problems owing to lack of use! In this regard, there is a wonderful four manual H&H organ in a city hall not far from where I live, which I suspect was too precious to be played by 'just anybody', and so was never played at all from one year to the next. Add in the effects of central heating and the instrument is now unplayable as a concert organ, and is reportedly in need of £¾ million work to restore it to full working order.

Makes you want to go and punch somebody, doesn't it ?


I have often felt that it would be helpful if clerics, churchwardens and PCCs could be made aware that organs need to be played to keep them in good working order; and that with varied stop selection an organ benefits just as much from being played by an adventurous beginner as a cathedral organist.
AGAIN ! We're not related by any chance, are we?

Better still, would it not be possible to have a database of playable organs available to responsible organists, with contact details of the person responsible?

I have had much the same thoughts. What I have not really thought through, is how this might be put out to the 'masses'. How to be in touch with those who might be interested.
Then again, you and I are fairly close geographically - in the Land of the Prince Thingammies, not to mention the 'Herd Preferred'.(deliberate mis-spell). I am somewhat handicapped here, having instruments available which are not particularly inspiring, (but are all superior to my Viscount).
Might it be possible to kick this off one way or another,between us? Or at least discuss it for the collective benefit.

Regards,
Chris Baker - Durham UK

Well now, thinking about it, I happen to know the General Secretary of the IAO, (who happens to live in Gateshead), so I will ask him.

I have a feeling that this may have been instigated following my comments at the NDSO AGM last July, but I am probably wrong.

I have to say, we (and others) are extremely lucky to have free use of the four organs in our own parish, which in turn means that it is very unusual for services to be held without an organist (or pianist); even during holiday periods. But why should this be the exception, rather than the rule?

Would it not also be a great inspiration for younger organists, or indeed any organist, to have the opportunity to play on a really big organ from time to time? Our son got to play on the organ at Newcastle City Hall last year, and despite the many ciphering stops, it took a good month to wipe the grin off of his face.

Thinking on, how about a nationwide 'play the organ day', where organ lofts could be open for visitors to have a play, accompanied by the resident organist?

Oh dear, I can hear them screaming 'child protection' already, so I really will have to get back into my box.

SB

Just to lower the tone even further ...

This reminds me of a postcard I saw in Blackpool. The scene is at the entrance to a theatre. A sign outside shows a Wurlitzer and proclaims "Magnificent Marvin and his Mighty Organ" or something like that.

A passing girl in skimpy dress turns to her companion and says "Well I thought it was a miserable litle thing!"

Rock-bottom - starting to dig .........

aye aye cap'n the very same (though my surname is different now, of course...)

I took this matter up with a contact at the IAO who replied as follows:

"The issue of practice organs is of major concern - see the attached article from this week's Church Times. Basically the idea of a National Practice Organ Register collapsed due to issues similar to those raised in the article. However, the IAO is able to help on an individual basis through the local Secretaries who are all listed on the IAO website."

So, it seems that the situation is unlikely to improve in the near future, but at least some help is at hand through the IAO.

It will be interesting to see what responses, if any, the article in the Church Times brings.

SB

Thanks for the update, SB. Rather what I feared, though I'm not altogether surprised.

I must admit I can understand all of the concerns voiced in the article: At our most recent PCC meeting we must have spent a good hour discussing child protection issues, after which we discussed the new requirements for First Aid boxes (which, we are told, are big and very expensive, but mustn’t have sticking plasters in them).

There is also the concern for organs themselves, which are notoriously expensive to repair and maintain.

Given the above, I think it is quite understandable that many Clergy and PCCs are unwilling to let people who they don't know have keys to a church, and to play on the organ.

The question is, how do we overcome these fears? In reality, the most vulnerable part of an organ is usually the pedalboard, which [on Tracker organs] can easily be broken if it is stood on by a fifteen stone adult, but is much less vulnerable to a twelve year old, hoodie or not. And as far as I know, organs cannot be broken by playing the wrong notes, or by playing them too loudly.

The legal liability, security and child protection concerns are perhaps more difficult to address. However, if someone is a regular worshiper, and is well known at a church, I find it difficult to believe that any reasonable incumbent would seriously object to some organ practice. Maybe if they are that hostile to a potential organist it might be better to find another church?

However, I can fully understand that clergy may be less accommodating of a complete stranger who lives locally, is not a regular worshiper, and never steps foot in the church until they want to play the organ.

SB

Maybe if they are that hostile to a potential organist it might be better to find another church?

which is what I did.

Well done. Perhaps if it happened more often things would improve rapidly.

SB

A friend of mine has just bought a secondhand electronic instrument for £175, plus the costs of moving it to his flat. The instrument is a Johannus Opus 220, with an orthodox console. Although it is an analogue machine I still prefer it to most of the digital instruments. There is something quite positive about the sound.

At one time I had a very similar instrument for home practise. (Actually the continental version - an Opus 225.) Until we got the pipe organ at home (you know that story,) that electronic served us very well.

The suggestion, made in some esoteric quarters, that it is possible for a teacher to discern whether apupil has been practising on a tracker organ or an electro-pneumatic action hs been tested and found to be rubbish. For most people a simple electronic instrument will do the job. The great advantage over a pipe organ is, of course, headphones, Also, an area about four feet by four feet is needed for the machine.

Many churches simply do not deserve to have competent organists. There are many places that take enormous trouble to encourage young players. Unfortunately, they appear to be fewer these days.

Just after I left university, when I very impecunious, I wished to use a particular organ for practise because it had a similar touch to the instrument that was to be used for the LTCL. (Pressure touch box pneumatic.) I obtained the use of the desired instrument for about four months. When the examination was taken I called on the Vicar to return the keys and present him with a note of the number of hours I had used the organ, expecting to pay. He handed the note back to me, stating it was the church's contribution to my musical education. There would be no charge.

About twenty years later, that church had an 'organ transplant' as the earlier instrument had by then failed. I was invited to give the opening recital on this rather nice little 'Father' Willis. The same Vicar, now the Archdeacon, asked me at the post recital party what my fee was. I told him there was no charge and gave him the piece of paper on which I had recorded my practise hours those years before. He was delighted and so was I. This cleric, The Venerable Frederick Hazell, now retired, was the first incumbent ever to give an organist paid maternity leave. (Mrs Janet Stone.) Throughout his ministry he always treated organists as equal colleagues. Needless to say, he was never short of organists.

I am very sorry that not everyone has been treated like this.

Barry Williams

What a lovely story.

Isn't that how it should be?

SB

I don't understand. Is it not the case that "on a real organ, one would ... use two manuals with a different registration on each"? If that is the case, why couldn't you assign half of your keyboard to a sample of an organ with registration X and the other half to a sample of an organ with registration Y? Of course the way such an arrangement works would be entirely different from the way an organ works; but, if you just want it to sound like an organ, why should that matter?

Actually I think river may be wrong to assume that the two halves of the keyboard will not overlap. It may be possible to program each half of the keyboard to play an octave or two higher or lower than it otherwise would. If you transpose the lower half upwards and/or the upper half downwards, you have two overlapping keyboards.

I agree that the sound of a digital piano patch is likely to be a major problem. My digital piano has some sounds that claim to be organ sounds, but they are excruciatingly awful. On the other hand, my digital piano is around 15 years old, and the technology has doubtless improved a good deal. It is now possible to get software which produces a remarkably accurate simulation of the sound of a grand piano or a Hammond organ. If there isn't yet anything similar for church organs, there soon will be.

But another problem would be the feel of the keyboard. Digital pianos are designed to feel like real pianos. They don't succeed, but that's the idea. They don't feel much like organ keys either.

Only occasionally. If you have a solo line and you want it to have a different tone colour to the accompaniment then you have to play that solo on a different manual. There are other exceptions, too, where particular colouring is required, but most of the time organists play on one manual at a time (plus pedals where needed of course).

This is where ignorance is bliss. I have been using manuals set differently, one to each hand, for years without it occurring to me that it might be bad practice. Whoops.
OTOH, I had no idea that you could have a split keyboard on a digital piano (mine boasts no such refinement being about 13 years old). The oddest thing about the organ setting on the piano is the fact that the damper pedal works with it, and it is just wrong, wrong.....

Not much use for 'thumbing down' though is it?

Nice one, Mel!

What's the point of having two manuals, then?

To have different expressions when you need them.
Also for ease of playing i would assume.

Well, there are several reasons. You can set up contrasting tone colours for different sections of the music, and you can solo parts out on solo voices or combinations on the other manual, for example.

But the idea that one hand always plays on one manual, and the other hand on the other, is actually a common misconception among non-organists.

Why have two when you can have seven?...

Exactly. You could, in theory, draw different stops for different passages and phrases, but that would be incredibly clumsy, and would really get in the way of the music.

There are occasions when it is easier to play a peice with hands on two separate manuals, (Repton in four part comes to mind - to avoid getting fingers tangled), whilst some Trumpet Voluntaries would also be impossible to play on a single manual.

Otherwise, some very short phrases often call for a different registration, which would be difficult to achieve even using presets.

Let's just say that using different manuals is just one of the ways in which an organist can add 'expression' to the music whilst using only two hands and two feet!

SB