does anyone recommend any pieces, types of pieces or composers that are ascential for the repertoire, either for helping technique or to learn new things or just for fun? ;p

at the moment i am just trying to play pieces from "most" of the "well known" composers and i know about the importance of the bach 48 and Beethoven 35 sonates (although dont know what pieces are best to learn, just learning random ones ;p). the pieces can be of any genre even jazz would be of help as i dont have many pieces of jazz or of the very modern.

anyone know of any, would be appreciated

The most important pieces for your repertoire are ones that you really want to play and have something to say about the music when you perform it. If you are looking for standard syllabus repertoire the dip and LRSM repertoire lists are as good a place to start.

From my personal point view at the moment I am bringing back Chopin Barcarolle, I have just put away again Listz Sonetto 123 again, and am about half way through 104. I enjoy playing Debussy, estampes particularly but the preludes are always worth looking at. Gershwin preludes are nice as well, if you want slightly more modern or why don't you have a look at Prokofiev visions fugatives - short pieces that can be quickly learned along side more complex ones. Then of course you have Mozart, Haydn etc sonata's which are equally as important in the repertoire and that's before you even get into the realm of Chopin Nocturns and the whole of Brahms etc


Most importantly, enjoy learning whatever you choose and have fun

For technique the majority of teachers and pianists would agree that Bach is the foundation. Start with the 2 and 3 part inventions and French and english Suites and progress to the Preludes and Fugues (at least a selection of them)

After that Chopin's Etudes (Op 10 and Op 25) embody most of what you need to play all the post-classical repertoire. The etudes of Moszkowski (Op 72 ) are good preparation for the Chopin etudes.

All of these can also feature as performance pieces in recitals, unlike many of the etudes of other composers (though - contrary to popular opinion, many of Czerny's studies are also quite attractive as pieces of music).

Alternatively you can learn techniques/skills as and when necessary as you come across new and difficuilt material in your repertoire pieces.

For repertoire, there is so much out there for the piano that all you can expect by way of recommendation is other people's favourites, or concert war-horses ... and they might not suit you at all.

For example Beethoven's 32 sonatas are sometimes called the "New Testament" (Bach's 48 being the Old Testament), but you don't HAVE to play Beethoven. Not everyone likes Beethoven, or likes his work more than that of the hundreds of other significant composers of the last few hundred years. And even if you are a Beethoven fan you may not like all 32 of the sonatas enough to learn them all - which is in any case a huge undertaking.

To get into your repertoire, any piece has to pass three tests or filters:

1. Do I really, really, like it and completely believe it?
2. Is it within my present capabilities (or something for the future)?
3. Would any audience want to hear it?

There is no way out of expanding your knowledge of what is out there by listening to new stuff (radio, TV, live concerts, master classes, YouTube, CD) - probably several times to give unfamiliar stuff a chance, and browsing through scores (both with and without a keyboard to help) - then making your own decisions and choices. Fortunately this is a very enjoyable process, and if you are anything like me you will find new pieces that you would like to play ten times faster than you can actually learn anything!

ok ty xD

ill look around

yea got one or two Chopin Etudes of Op 10 like the revolutionary, although when playing full speed i get achy at 3-4th page :/
and the debussy preludes i started yesterday, the Les collines d'Anacapri, and might start La Cathedrale Engloutie sometime soon :S

but is learning pieces well above your ability worth it?
as i am trying to play Hungarian Rhapsody No.2 (Liszt), playign half way through rubbishly ;p
La Campanella (or somethign like that)
and the Chopin Chopin Polonaise in A-flat major, Op. 53
althoguh only really trying the Hungarian Rhapsody at the moment and a little of La Campanella

so ill find out about the Op 25 and the Barcarolle, and the other composers mentioned

"if you are anything like me you will find new pieces that you would like to play ten times faster than you can actually learn anything!"

haha i know the feeling. i got like +30 pieces i really want to learn instantly but it will never happen. To be honest i probably shouldnt be getting some new music for a while but i want to learn all these pieces before Uni and learning new pieces is more fun than perfecting them for me (although depends on the piece) ;p

anyway thanks again

EDIT: i have looked around for the dip and LRSM repertoire lists and found one but it wasnt specifically for the piano :/
do you have the link?

Not really. At least not unless you love the piece with a fierce passion. It generally takes too long, can be discouraging, and you never play them really well.

But browsing pieces that are at present beyond you, and doing a bit of exploratory work on them, is a different matter. You get an idea of the kinds of skills you will eventually need, and become familiar with the pieces, and when you do make a serious effort at learning them (possibly years from now) that turns out to be surprisingly useful.

For optimum improvement most of the pieces you are working on should be just slightly beyond the limits of what you can comfortably manage, and each one should introduce only one or two new technical challenges.

I'd add to that by saying only work on one work at the top end of your ability at a time, and maybe one or two shorter works that you can tackle comfortably, there is plenty of very worthwhile Grade 8/dip level pieces that you will enjoy and will consolidate your technique before going on to tackle the big repertoire work, this way you will ultimately progress quicker as you are giving yourself time to get a really firm foundation rather than constantly plugging away at things that you find more difficult.

you can access the repertoire lists from here http://www.abrsm.org./?page=exams/diplomas...erformance.html

Tackling a piece that is beyond you requires a method that sounds easy (!) All you have to do is postpone learning it while you do other things that help you to acquire the skills and techniques that stop it being beyond you. Not as easy as it sounds!

ohhh ok
so like doing the hanon?
im only up to the 11th one at the moment, but doing about 45-60mins hanon and 30-60 minutes doing scales a day at the moment to try to get my stamina and strength up :/; as the hungarian rhapsody seems to be demanding on the 5th and 4th fingers at the broken chord octave things ><
is there a particular excerise in hanon or anywhere else which could help that then?
or just to carry on what i am doing.

and also what is the maximum piano time you should do a day, without doing an injury etc?
at the moment i am doing about 5-6 hours a day but again will change a bit when school happens again :/

and thank you again

Hanon has many uses but using it to develop stamina is not a great one, as it encourages mindless practice, and that easily leads to bad habits creeping in. Almost anything you do at the keyboard contributes to developing the stamina to play or practice for long periods, so use Hanon for what is was designed for - to develop familiarity and fluency with many different patterns and sequences of finger movement.

And despite all the drivel that has been written about Chopin playing no louder than mf because of physical frailty, the truth is that it does not take much strength to play piano, and you would have to be a very weedy specimen to be unable to produce a good fortissimo.


There is no specific exercise in Hanon that preapares you for the entire range of technical difficulties in the second Hungarian Rhapsody, but Hanon does include scales in broken octaves and many, many exercises (primarily aimed at trilling) that develop the co-ordination and speed of the 4th and 5th fingers.

The way I tackled the 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody was to split it up into thirty or so separate sections, each of which featured a particular technique, and then work on them one at a time, scouring books of etudes for examples of the same difficulties in simpler form, or if that failed, making up my own.

There are plenty of very capable pianists lurking on this forum, some of them far better than I am (or possibly will ever be). If you are lucky they might contribute some ideas.


There is no maximum. It all depends on the individual. In part it is genetic, in part it is your general state of fitness. Having said that the general concensus in the numerous books is that somewhere around 4 hours is optimal. But the range amongst professionals is huge. Some claim to maintain their skill on as little as two hours a day. Others claim to work 8 hours a day or more.

Things that lead to problems are:

- bad posture,
- sitting too high or too low, or too close, or too far away
- obsessing over some particular movement for hours on end (variety is better)
- increasing the number of hours very suddenly (build up gradually is the sensible way)
- failing to take frequent breaks of a minute or two to stretch the legs and let the arms, hands, eyes and brain have a bit of rest
- doing all your practice in one mammoth session (2 or 3 shorter ones are better)

There is no maximum time!

However, like Mad Tom said - practising too long in the wrong way is detrimental. For example, if you were practising 4 hours on the same part of 1 piece, after a certain point, it would not not help you, for various reasons. Its important that however long you practice, you make sure it is planned out so that you are not wasting time.

I also think it is better to play to an aim, rather than a timeframe. I'd suggest 4 hours is a good amount of time, 5 maybe if you can. The best way I believe to practice is as follows:

40 mins practise on scales, hanon, exercises, czerny etudes, something similar.
10 min break
40 mins practise on a set out part of a piece that you find difficult/need to work on
10 mins break
40 mins practise on a study or another pieces that is related to the difficult part of the piece you were just working on
10 mins break (or longer, as this is the mid-way point)
40 mins practise on another part of the 1st piece that you were working on, preferably one that uses a similar technique to what you were just working on, or has similar demands.
10 mins break
40 mins practise on a 2nd newer piece - to involve maybe "I'm going to learn the notes to the end of the 2nd page"
finish

The most important thing about this practice method is that when you get to the end of your allotted time for that particular subject/passage/study, whatever, whether you have perfected that bit or not - STOP. Set a timer and when it goes off, listen to it!

You're not allowed to keep going for 5 mins or go back to it when you should be on the next session. This way, you keep your practise varied and you get around to everything that you need to. Otherwise, you can fall into the trap (which I used to do often!) of playing the same piece for 3 hours at a time, 2 days in a row, just to try and get something perfect, which does not help! And it means that you are neglected the other, as important, parts of your practice.

Of course the breakdown is just a suggestion and it can be mixed up in a number of different ways. 40 min sessions is also based on what I prefer - my mind tends to wander after roughly that time. You might find that you need to do 20 or 30 mins, or you might find 45 mins works best for you. I would not recommend an hour at a time though, as after about 40-45 mins, your mind isn't learning as much any more (35 mins is apparently the optimal length of time to study!). You also don't have to only 40 mins. You could do 40 mins x 4, then 20 mins x 2 or something like that, depending on what it is tat you need to practise.

If you were doing 5 hours, again, you may need to have more breaks as it is a longer stretch. Another way to do it is 3 hours in the morning and 2 in the afternoon (what was recommended to me - I tend to have an hour/hour and a half break in the middle to have lunch and relax for a bit before starting again.)

Hope this helps!
C x

Absolutely, but . . .


. . . How does this reconcile with what you wrote above? Far more consistent (and in my view sensible) is that when you have achieved your aim, stop. If it took 2 minutes, be a bit more ambitious next time. If it took more than an hour be less ambitious next time. You get used to setting yourself sensible targets, but ignore the alarm clock: Stop when you've finished, not before and not after!

i usually do a few hours and then a little break etc but depends if i have anything on. if so i usually do what cadence was suggested do few hours in the morning then when i get back. However, i dont really set aims as such, so i guess i need to set more in my practise then and concentrate on fewer pieces? as an hour or 2 is usually spent on playing a number of pieces i had played and forgotten which i only then play once or twice through.

i also looked through the list and i also like the Chopin Barcarolle, so will check the copyright on it to see if i can d/l it.

although the brahms, bartok and most of gershwin etc were still copyrighted :/

anyway thanks again