Just got "Ricci on Glissando" (comes with DVD, a very useful feature). The book is largely an examination of Paganini's left-hand hold and shifting technique, and as son Viohazard has been thrashing his way through the Caprices, he was planning to use this book after finishing his guitar exam. But a broken guitar meant that he didn't take the exam, and meanwhile school exams are about to start - not that he's studying very hard, I suspect he's engrossed in a 3-volume history of Venice! Anyway, he doesn't know that the book has arrived, and I'm having a quiet read of it first .

Since I'm not a violinist, I can't comment on the musical side, and should mention that Ricci doesn't seem to think that everybody should stamp their chin and/or shoulder rests underfoot (unless they want to).

However, a couple of things caught my attention. Viohazard had such a laissez-faire teacher from ages 6-12 that he was never taught to shift positions - his teacher just said, "You seem to have worked it out for yourself while playing things by ear, away you go then!" His current teacher was horrified by his shifting, yet what Ricci describes sounds very much like the Viohazard approach - thumb follows fingers instead of hand moving all at once, and more stretching with less actual shifting.

I wonder if this approach is almost an instinctive one? It didn't seem to cause him trouble with intonation, though he did need to learn to manage his thumb when fingering high positions on the lower strings.

The other point, also raised in some other threads on chin-rests, is the connection between chin-angle and left-hand hold. With his old teacher, Viohazard was always struggling to find the right place to put his chin, and found it difficult to get comfortable with the shoulder rest. I wonder if the pain people often struggle with comes just at the time when they are working hardest on position shifting?

at the time it seemed that being left-handed, the problem was caused by favouring his left eye when reading the music. However, looking at all these chillingly familiar photos, I can't help thinking that the connection between left-hand grip/shifting and head/chin position is even closer than people keep saying it is! If you look at Ricci on Youtube, he is sometimes gazing right down the fingerboard, and at other times, his gaze is almost at right-angles to the violin.

Ricci comments that the left-hand technique he is demonstrating covers a 5-note chord per position, rather than 4 notes. I can't comment on how that works out, but it's an interesting thought.

It may be that Ricci is overstating or perhaps oversimplifying his case, but this is certainly a most interesting book. Would never have thought of buying it if Viohazard hadn't found Ricci such an interesting violinist to listen to.

P.S. Forgot to say, the DVD is on right hand technique. Takes some concentration to watch, as he's not a fluent presenter and definitely getting older, but his comments are very practical - "THIS is what happens if you use your hand like so..." and it looks to be well worth watching if you are in a "can't see the wood for the trees" state of mind over bowing and bow-grip.

Hi I use this book daily. I don't believe that thumb following fingers is what Ricci intends in a lot of cases. Certainly in shifting downward in the exercises provided it's important that the thumb (well, technically the elbow) leads, and that the hand moves as a unit in non-glissando shifts, opening the wrist before shifting. The thumb sometimes follows on upwards glissandi, and has in certain other exercises like his 8ve extending to 11ths exercise, and most upward extension exercises. But it's important that this technique is used only in the right context, and not exclusively.

That demonstrates the importance of flexibility of position more than anything. The thing is that Ricci can't be taken as a model of excellence in posture, because he's very short and that's why he often holds the violin straight out in front of him.
However what you said about pain in finding the right posture is indeed connected to shifting. For starters pain should never be an issue in violin playing. If it is, I would say remove the shoulder rest because there are likely to be some major issues in posture and balance. If playing without a shoulder rest is impossible (aside from shifts in lower position, eg 1st to 3rd, or long shifts, eg 7th to 2nd) then the perception of balance is wrong and no set-up will be comfortable until the problem is addressed.
I am always sad to see how many players use shoulder rests to mask problems, usually because their teacher has forced a shoulder rest upon them from day 1 without any sensible consideration for a player's personal preference, ability and physical shape, and without bothering to explain how to balance the violin, something which is extremely difficult to understand with a shoulder rest on. Ricci is a prime example of great balance in playing (as are many who play without a shoulder rest like Heifetz and Milstein).


Just that he likes to use extensions really! I'm not sure it's a great idea until you're really advanced because it throws the hand out of the normal shape which we use to play in tune.

Thanks for those comments, Viohazard will be interested to read them. I read your comments on the TPO aspects of stretching and relative thumb/finger positions in shifting - one thing that has always interested me is that, on the whole, in classical guitar Viohazard is expected and required to stretch from a position if that is the practical solution, whereas in violin the feeling seems to be more that if you feel you need to stretch, you should be shifting position.

Thanks for the warning on reading the book carefully. It is extremely interesting reading, not only for technique but for the ways in which he echoes what all the great pedagogues have said from Baillot to Auer - that a good ear is the best teacher, etc.

I'm not so sure that Ricci's height is responsible for his sometimes "straight out in front" hold - that would mean that almost every Japanese violinist should need to hold their violins that way! I wonder if age and restricted shoulder movement has something to do with it though.

What part of the book do you use most often? Viohazard has only had a handful of lessons over the past year, and feels the drop-off in technique really badly - hence the decision to get some guidance on working through the Caprices.

As far as teachers and shoulder rests go, as a parent I feel quite sympathetic - not only are kids constantly learning new and different techniques, but their bodies are growing and changing, and they keep needing a new size instrument or bow! It must be hard to pinpoint the most important factor. When a kid keeps tossing the shoulder rest back in the case, something is wrong, but when they don't even notice whether they're using it or not, I can't tell if that means the shoulder rest is quite comfortable, or the kid is permanently out to lunch!

P.S. Paganini was apparently left-handed. I wonder if his left-hand technique was partly the result of a naturally more flexible approach to left-hand use - Viohazard is strongly left-handed too (though sadly that hasn't turned him into a Paganini!) and his natural tendency seems to be to use his left hand more flexibly than the prescribed approach suggests.

I don't think left-handed-ness has anything to do with left hand technique. Starting out, some left handers may have an advantage because they are more aware of what their left hand is doing, but it could have something to do with age as well. Young children develop around the instrument that they are learning. Holding a violin is a very unnatural thing when you think about it! If you learn how to hold it properly from a young age you develop to the instrument, thus making a case for why it can sometimes seem easier for young children to pick up things on an instrument. Look at gymnasts and young athletes! Their bodies adapt to whichever sport it is that they play and sometimes that stunts their own growth because they have adapted to whatever it was that they grew up doing. I've been playing violin since I was 6 so nothing on the violin seems unnatural to me because my body adapted to it at a young age ... but I could be delving into a hugely complicated thing here and I hope that it isn't off topic!

I have long been surprised at the use of shoulder rests by violinists who find the violin too shallow for the length of their necks. I would expect the relationship between the arms and the instrument to be more important than that between chin and instrument, and for the playing position to be most comfortable when the instrument was as low as possible relative to the shoulders. This also gives the best view of the fingerboard. Long chin rests are available (I think of them as "giraffe" style; I'm not sure if that is a common name) and deal flexibly with the neck-length problem.

I discussed this recently with a professional violinist who coaches the strings of my orchestra, and he acknowledged the force of my argument. Of course, the human body is very adaptable, and many people brought up on the use of shoulder rests will be quite content with them. However, the long chin rest is an option that should be considered by anyone who is not comfortable with their playing position. For those lacking sufficient natural padding over their collar bone, a thin (5 - 10 mm.) shoulder pad might be desirable.

The first three hits from a Google search on

violin "long neck" "chin rest"

discuss both chin rests and shoulder rests.

FWIW, I never think about my left thumb when shifting. Of course 'cello and bass are more stable than upper strings, so shifting is much easier.

That is very true - instruments seem to be just extra body parts for very young children...they don't think about colle or spiccato or whatever, they just fool around with their bows and listen to what happens. Talking about the body adapting, I remember being slightly shocked when a local pianist said conversationally to Viohazard when he was about 9, "You play the violin..?" then as her eyes fell on his hands, she suddenly said "Oh...you REALLY play the violin!". Apparently his knuckles and tendons looked different.

Ken, what you are saying about the need for a higher chin rest rather than a higher shoulder rest makes a lot of sense, and I read the same comment in Ricci's book.

In retrospect, it disturbs me a little bit that growing kids' needs are not addressed - teachers often don't know much, parents know less, and it's somehow regarded as a minor issue. It wasn't until Viohazard was older that I noticed how many kids started complaining about their shoulder rests or shoulder pain around age 10. (Viohazard switched to a deeply curved Mach One shoulder rest at that point...his teacher has since swiped it, so maybe it's time to get restless!!!)

Viohazard's teacher up to age 12 just said airily that all teenage boys have ghastly holds and left-hand technique, and she'd given up worying about it! . Obviously girls grow too, but boys grow faster over a shorter period of time usually, and often have a really bony period in their early teens when nothing seems to make the violin sit comfortably on the shoulder...and probably their position shifting is changing month by month.

Out of curiosity, what practical difference does the absence of a chin or shoulder rest seem to make to left-hand behaviour? And does it seem practical or desirable to do the Ricci thing and keep the left hand resting against the ribs of the violin much of the time? That is what Viohazard used to do until his new teacher got him to really practice positions.

Lots of professional violinists I know swear by shoulder rests and lots don't. It doesn't seem to affect their technique but I suppose if you start developing pain in your shoulders, back or arms that might be one thing to experiment around with! Personally, I use a shoulder rest because my left hand feels more relaxed that way. I also don't have a raised shoulder and I'm much more relaxed across my shoulders and back. One of the things my teacher drilled into me was relaxation with everything! I tended to raise my left shoulder without a shoulder rest and you should actually be evenly proportioned. Your left hand should not support the violin because it has enough things to do by itself!

I have not read this Ricci book but I'm not sure what you are saying by the left hand resting against the ribs of the violin. Do you mean that he plays with a collapsed wrist? Is this in first position? If so, I have to disagree with that for sure! Please clarify?

Ricci playing Paganini Caprices a while back - you can see his fingers "creepy-crawling" down the fingerboard, but his wrist is not collapsed in a "frying pan hold" (but neither is it pushed right out the way you sometimes see). There are several photos in the book itself of the kind of hold and stretches he is talking about.

That performance was a while back. I don't know how well it represents what he's talking about in the book, though he said it was studying the caprices that made him realize how much rests had changed the way people play violin.

He does say that he doesn't advocate totally abandoning modern technique.

As far as I can make out, his points are:

* pre-chinrest, violinists supported the violin mainly with the left hand, leaving the head free to move. This led to a natural preference for glissando in shifting.

* Modern shifting has the thumb move at the same time as the fingers in a series of jumps, whereas in the past the fingers were more mobile, crawling up and down the fingerboard, with the thumb moving rather less (that is, you can't "creep" the same finger down the fingerboard unless the thumb is fairly stable, if I understand this correctly).

* The wrist-to-rib position is a natural result of having four fingers in contact with the fingerboard (instead of the 3-point modern hold), as the elbow has to move closer to the body. Ricci suggests that Paganini's downward sloping violin hold is related to this. I think this is also related to Ricci's remarks on using the pads of the fingers (as happens when your finger is stretching back or forward) rather than being too wedded to vertically placed fingertips only.

* Ricci says that Paganini is described as having his wrist against the ribs, with his fingers extending "backward" to first position and "forward" to the higher positions. He suggests you try playing certain extracts from the Caprices this way.

One of the best things about the book is that it is about half exercises - some his own, and some from other sources.

Chin/shoulder rests are completely irrelevant if you have good technique and balance. I can play whether I use nothing at all or any combination of rests. Your chin is nothing to do with it really, nor is your shoulder. Once you realise that the primary points of contact are the lowest joint of the thumb and the collarbone (a very small area of contact) then you realise how pointless this whole discussion is. Really it's just an issue of comfort, and for those with small hands and small little fingers it's also an issue about being able to let go of the neck completely and what's necessary to enable that. If you have big enough hands to always leave your thumb on the neck, or if you're not playing above around 8th position, your chin/shoulder rest should make absolutely no difference to how you play.
All this talk of "filling the gap" is complete nonsense.

About the LH/ribs thing, it's only something to explore once regular shifting and hand positions are completely mastered and intonation is 100% secure in any position. I guess for most people that means after 10-15 years of playing. Given that it only becomes useful around the level of Paganini caprices and only in similar virtuoso works (or modern repertoire) it's not something that the majority of players ever need worry about, and when it does become relevant then at that stage you should be a good enough violinist to work it out for yourself without having to analyse every last hand movement and position.

This caught my eye as I have only just (ie in the last couple of weeks) changed my chin/shoulder rest set up, mainly because of shoulder/neck pain and general tension in playing.

I now have a high chin rest, raised a bit further with cork and my shoulder rest is as low as possible and just fills the gap between the back of the violin and the slope of my shoulder. I'm still getting used to it but generally feel much less strained and 'fixed', and far more in contact with the violin, which I think is improving intonation.
I'm still looking around for a 'squashier' shoulder rest but for the moment it's a good compromise. The main thing seems to be that my left arm is much freer which makes shifting easier.

N

Wow ... that is so interesting! I've always been fascinated by Paganini. Would you recommend buying this book, then?

Scifi-karis, Ricci has an older book on left-hand technique (that I haven't seen). You might like to check them both out on Violinist.com.

The Glissando book is an old man's book - it's a bit wandery in places.....but extremely interesting, and I'd much better have a wandery book than Paganini's promised but never delivered work on technique!

As a bystander, I really can't judge which of Ricci's books is more useful, but I think it probably falls into the same group as things like Baillot's work on violin...you couldn't shut your eyes to everything else and just rely on this one book. On the other hand, it's not only interesting and valuable in itself, it makes you think hard about "the rules".

As a non-player, what I find interesting in this book is that it takes another look at techniques that are practical but often frowned on. I guess lots of great things have started that way...CPE Bach's book on keyboard talks about the stupidity of ignoring the thumb in keyboard playing - but who nowadays would try to play the piano without using their thumbs?

Viohazard started out with a very strange position-shifting technique for several reasons...when he was tiny, the luthier used a different brand of e-string, and he didn't like how it sounded, so he avoided that and used other strings instead...his teacher was accompanying him on piano, and didn't notice for a long time that Viohazard was not playing the "correct" fingering...his second teacher kept him in first position for a further couple of years, by which time Viohazard had figured out for himself where each note was on each string.

Of course, there were many bad habits that needed to be corrected, but my interest in language learning makes me very interested in the steps that people take "naturally" when they try to master a new skill. While there are often shortcuts that are detrimental in the long run, usually the reasoning behind the shortcuts is sound. From that point of view, taking an unprejudiced look at the advantages as well as the disadvantages of "unorthodox" techniques is always interesting - if not from a violinistic point of view, then always from a metaphysical point of view!

I promise that filling the gap is completely unnecessary. I have no contact between my shoulder and the violin whatsoever, and nor do many great players like Heifetz and Oistrakh who play without a shoulder rest. The only points of contact you should have are the lower joint of the thumb, a small area of the collar bone, and a small area under the chin. I'm constantly amazed how few players understand this.

What you might experiment with is a Huber pad, which only comes into play on certain unstable techniques like vibrato and LH pizz where the instrument physically moves and a little stabilising support can be useful. Most of the time you don't even notice the Huber pad is there though, if your balance of the violin is correct.

A little dogmatic perhaps! I do feel that people are so variable that a one-size-fits-all approach is unlikely to be satisfactory for many.

I have a long neck and a violin which is on the collar bone will not be anywhere near my chin unless I either have a substantial chin rest or a permanently bent over posture - the shoulder rest is, as you say, for stability, to avoid slipping about etc. I am probably slowly working towards losing the rest but need something - I will look into the Huber pad; it sounds worth experimenting with.
N

Well this is exactly my point - why does everyone insist on using a shoulder rest when for the vast majority it is unnecessary and hinders technique? Why do most people start as a beginner with a shoulder rest when there is absolutely no need for one, or any kind of support, until shifting and/or vibrato are introduced? That's not dogmatic, that's understanding basic violin technique. If everyone started out with nothing and added what was required for them when they developed their playing to require some support eg on downward shifts, a lot of people would end up with just a chin rest, maybe a Huber pad, but very very rarely a shoulder rest.


In that case how about doing anything you learn in 1st position without a rest? Then you can start to explore the idea of correct balance without concern for dropping the violin or losing its balance. Stuff like Schradieck and Carl Flesch Urstudien silent LH exercises are great for this, and any bowing exercises also.

I understand perfectly what bohemian is saying, but what is 'wrong' with using a shoulder rest?
if one uses it and does not get an injury from using it and still manages to play the violin well then what's the 'harm'?
Many famous soloist use a shoulder rest (ok, many don't), all I wanted to say is: ok there may be 'no need' to use one but no harm in using it if it doesn't cause any injury or poor playing 'outcome'?

(sorry I am just 'reflecting here' not at all having a go at bohemian as like I said she has a valid point in what she says, that, yes, perhaps nobody 'needs' a shoulder rest)

I bet any of these soloists COULD play without one if required. I also bet most people who currently use a rest and always have couldn't. That's the difference between someone using a rest as an aid in limited techniques (good) and someone reliant upon a rest to execute poor technique (bad).
While you might currently get away without injury, often it's a matter of time until something goes wrong. Perhaps you do have perfect balance and are not affected by a shoulder rest. If so, congratulations, you must be extremely talented and fortunate, and in a tiny minority. More likely, you are building your technique around a set posture. Not a good thing. It is beneficial to everyone to do some playing without a rest, at the very least it's important in case your rest breaks or falls off or is left at home for a rehearsal/concert.

I would be interested to know whether any of the teachers here agree with bohemian. I have always used a shoulder rest and cannot play without one. None of my teachers has ever suggested that I should learn to play without one. One of them (an experienced and indeed distinguished teacher) even gave me a long lecture about how important it is to use a shoulder rest -- though I was already using one and hadn't considered not using one.

Nothing is wrong with using a shoulder rest, or not using one, (in my opinion!) the problem seems to be about regarding one as indispensable.

What might be unhelpful is a rigid set up which gets in the way of any technique or musical interpretation. People do have different physical attributes which surely require different solutions, and these might change during different stages of learning anyway.
I am pleased to have found a way of addressing some of my own problems with tension etc but don't regard anything as set in stone; and I personally don't think I am "building technique round a set posture" either. I would rather consider a flexible approach to the demands of developing technique and knowledge.

I didn't mean to interrupt this thread with another argument about shoulder rests, so apologies to the OP!
N

I don't really follow this. You seem to be saying -
(1) that use of a shoulder rest causes stress and tension;
(2) that, if playing without a rest causes stress and tension, your basic technique (i.e. the way you play with a rest, if that is how you normally play) must be wrong; but
(3) if you always use a rest, your teacher may not notice that your basic technique is wrong.

Correct? I've tried playing without a rest a couple of times, found it very hard and gave up. What exactly does this show to be wrong with my basic technique when using a rest? And why would these defects in my technique when using a rest become apparent to my teacher only if she watched me trying to play without a rest?

I'm not suggesting that you're wrong: you obviously know what you're talking about. I just don't understand what you mean. I also don't understand why, if you're right, reputable and indeed distinguished teachers would say the opposite.

I've never understood why anyone would want to learn to use a manual gearbox, either, when there is a much easier way of achieving the same result!

I don't think this is off topic at all, by the way.

Well, I don't know. People have very strong opinions about the shoulder rest issue, and we have been here before. All I can say is that my daughter studies with a pretty high profile conservatoire teacher, and when she first went to him he spent ages concentrating on removing stress and tension from her technique. Chinrest height, shoulder rest adjustment and general posture issues were addressed which totally transformed her playing. But doing away with the shoulder rest entirely was never suggested. The teacher himself plays with a rest as do all the pupils of his I've seen (including winners/finalists in major international violin competitions). They all play with an elegant, effortless, relaxed style which is quite lovely to watch.

In the end that's I would like too, and I don't think it really matters what we use to get to that end.
Anything which causes restriction, tension, awkwardness and impedes free movement in both arms and shoulders is going to affect sound quality, or it does with me anyway. Some people are going to find the wrong rest causes problems, and some people will find their own physical proportions make them play with discomfort, but I should have thought that any arrangements should start with the an idea of the sound we want to make, and analyzing what it is that stops us from getting it. For what it's worth I agree that starting out with a shoulder rest seems a bit premature, and I might not if I were starting again.
N

I don't think the question of hold or posture are off-topic at all...the body and violin and bow in combination make up the instrument.

I always used a shoulder rest BUT the violin RESTS on my collar bone all the time with it, always has done
Maybe it's the way I 'set up' my shoulder rests but yes, violin touches my collar bone, the shoulder rests 'fills the gap' between my 'shoulder' and violin mainly to help me keep the violin 'steady' and freeing my left hand

If you are holding the instrument with your left hand (in part), please explain shifting from your theory? My teacher is all about "letting go" when you shift with your left hand.

Personally, all my students start without a rest. I've only had one student who ever needed a rest and it was because she did have an exceptionally long neck and was putting herself into strange positions to try and fix it!

Who's a great pedagogue? Zakhar Bron? Shoulder rest user. Bad boy.

Discopants, could you spell that out for thicko here please?

Do you mean..."Zakhar Bron is a great teacher, and he uses a shoulder rest"?

Yes, sorry. Just trying to be colourful (and obviously failing)

Anyway, while I'm responding, one more thing. The argument that a shoulder rest makes the violin too high for "correct" bowing is, I believe, fundamentally flawed. The violin was never designed with any notion of "correct" bowing in mind. Rather, violin technique evolved to fit the instrument. Admittedly, the various schools of violin technique evolved on the basis of restless instruments, but there is no reason whatever to assume that a correct, non-injury inducing technique is impossible with a slightly higher lying instrument supported by a shoulder rest. In a nutshell, there is no "correctness" to support the no-rest argument - just historical precedent.

I'm not sure why people are trying to make out that ANYONE here is arguing that no-one should ever use a shoulder rest in any circumstances, and that if they do they must be a truly awful violinist. Quite clearly what rosfrog and I are saying is that knowing how to play without a shoulder rest is necessary if one is to play well with a rest, and that a shoulder rest can be the cause of, or hide, problems with balance and associated techniques, primarily shifting, posture and vibrato. Similarly clearly, we are saying that while in some cases a shoulder rest can be of use once a good balance is established and the role of the shoulder rest minimised and explained properly to the student, in many cases a shoulder rest is not appropriate and some alternative such as a sponge, pad, higher chin rest etc is more sensible, but not a route that most teachers bother to explore (I wonder why - because they lack the understanding themselves, or because it's easier just to give everyone a Kun/Wolf rest and hope they don't care enough to realise that they might be causing permanent, irreversible damage to their bodies?)

There's really no more to it. It's a bit boring reading the same old stuff over and over again with people trying to demonise anyone who suggests that a shoulder rest isn't always a good thing.

And I think that that is a waste of time.

i can play both with and without a rest, but i usually play with, because when i don't have one, and thus have to support the fiddle more with my left hand, my intonation gets much worse. is that a common problem?

I don't know. I play equally badly with and without a shoulder rest.

If we were all in the pub, having a few beers, I'm sure we could all have a good natured discussion. In cyberspace, the most minor difference of opinion can seem like WW3.

So do I, sadly. Although the sound is bigger without the Wolf, I am clumsier than with it. Anyway my Huber pad arrived yesterday and not only feels horrible but caused me to make a chip in my lovely varnish. I shall go on experimenting and will probably end up making something.
N

Thanks, it looks amazingly similar in shape to the half constructed one in my sewing basket! I'll persevere with my chamois leather home made variety, and if no good will give this one a try.

N

I'd love to see you break a shoulder rest in the middle of a concert. Perhaps then you'd change your mind - although I doubt you'd ever admit it.

Hi Bo,
I am very pragmatic. I change my mind all the time.

I also have tremendous admiration for your violin knowledge and commitment to your studies.

These shoulder rest threads always seem to follow the same pattern. You guys basically imply that anyone who uses a shoulder rest is a bit of a mug, and then when people disagree, you turn it round and accuse them of being vindictive and dogmatic.

In truth, I'm not at all anti-anti-shoulder rest. Actually, I think playing without one is quite cool. What I am is anti-dogma.

Have fun at Trinity. They're building up a really good violin faculty there.

But not at all. I just think it's sad that so many teachers are unable to even consider that there's an option of playing without one and that they are necessary. I think it's really important that people understand that they can cause problems. So can playing without a rest, though, but it's not easy to hide problems when you lose the rest whereas with a rest you can cover up all kinds of technical deficiencies that will only come to light years later, a really frustrating situation (and one that I experienced).

So no, I think you're wrong to say we're implying that shoulder rest users are rubbish. I think you should re-read my previous thread on this post where quite clearly I stated that. But you're correct that I am dogmatic in so far as I see no reason for people not to practice occasionally without one, even if they have a perfect set-up, to remind themselves of the basic elements of the violin hold, highlight any existing problems and trace their improvement in a more neutral way than with a rest, and for the purely practical reason that we can't rely on always having a shoulder rest to hand. If you think that's a waste of time then you are clearly not a pragmatist at all


PS - Thanks I'm only really going there because of who my teacher will be, but things seem to be looking up at TCM in a lot of ways.

[quote name='bohemian' date='Jul 2 2009, 04:24 PM' post='844392']
[quote name='DiscoPants' post='844374' date='Jul 2 2009, 03:22 PM']
So no, I think you're wrong to say we're implying that shoulder rest users are rubbish. I think you should re-read my previous thread on this post where quite clearly I stated that. But you're correct that I am dogmatic in so far as I see no reason for people not to practice occasionally without one, even if they have a perfect set-up, to remind themselves of the basic elements of the violin hold, highlight any existing problems and trace their improvement in a more neutral way than with a rest, and for the purely practical reason that we can't rely on always having a shoulder rest to hand. If you think that's a waste of time then you are clearly not a pragmatist at all

[/quote]

Touché. I was feeling a bit tetchy when I wrote that.