Hi.

I did my grade 8 organ last year with no problems at all - I even had to do scales on the pedals!!!
Now I am doing piano Grade 8 and the scales are really stumping me.

I can do most, but, how do you do scales in thirds!?!?!?!?

What fingering do you use. I can only do them staccato. I have never been able to do them legato.
I has tobe hands seperatly which is annoying.

For the one in C major I am using the following fingering to start..... 1/3, 2/4, 3/5. At the end of that first sequence I end up on the notes E and G. How do I move to F and A smoothly when I am currently on fingers 3/5.
It is impossible to jump smoothly from 3/5 to 1/3 isnt it?

I cant face it. I will ask the examiner to find me a piece that uses scales in thirds to prove that it is a flawed test.


Thank you

Ok, if 1=1+3, 2=2+4 and 3=3+5, for C major, I think I did something along the lines of:

1 (bottom C+E),2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2 (top C+E), 1,3,2,1,3,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,2,1 (bottom)

I can't find my old scales book though, so that might not be exactly right.

To transfer smoothly from 3+5 to 1+3, you can let go of 3 for a fraction of a second and pivot on 5. It takes practice.

I found it helpful to remember which pair of note were play with 3/5 in each hand as all the rest were 1/3 to 2/4.
Don't jump.... you can keep hold of the top of the pair going up and the bottom going down right till the last minute to keep the legato going. My teacher used to say cling and glide.

Playing scales in thirds (with one hand) is pretty hard.

(Actually, come to think of it, it's pretty hard with two hands, but that's another story...)

For my right hand I use the fingering 1/3, 2/4, 3/5, 1/2, 1/3, 2/4, 5/3, 1/3, etc

Going from 3/5 to 1/2 my hand seems to roll over to the right and then 'collapse' onto F and A. Specifically, it pivots on the right edge of the little finger nail, which is on the G, until the palm is almost vertical, then the left-right arch of the hand (across the knuckles) crumples. The thumb remains relaxed throughout. To do all this while holding down E and G till the last moment is only possible if the hand itself is warm and relaxed.

As it may not be, of course, if one is feeling frustrated

The way to feel warm and relaxed in the hands, for me, is to flood them with attention and enjoy the sensations of the fingers and hands making all the interesting and unique shapes they do in fitting around various patterns of keys. Rather than trying to force them to go to particular places, try paying more attention to what they already do. This usually means that scales are played more slowly and with greater satisfaction. And this is a good thing, I think. Otherwise, for example, if one aims for speed directly, it remains elusive.

It's hard to put all this into words; it's a rather intimate and personal matter. Good luck.



If you succeed in persuading the ABRSM to eliminate thirds from the syllabus please let me know and then I can stop practicing them

I think you re forgetting the real reasons for learning to play scales in thirds with one hand.

Do you have a teacher who could help, organistno1? I'd have thought that, if you were taking lessons, your teacher would have gone over this with you. If you haven't got a teacher, it'll pay to engage the services of one, even if it's only for a few lessons.

Getting a piano teacher sounds like a good idea, give your old teacher a ring, or there are lots of other good teachers in our area you could talk to. I'd recommend my teacher who I told you about, but she's about to go away for the summer.

If you don't want a teacher, get hold of the Grade 8 scales book, because you'll have the legato chromatic minor thirds hands seperately to compete with, which are harder than scales in thirds, and they're incredibly difficult to learn at first, but the scale book is very helpful.

Jacob.

Oh, what are they? Please tell!

I am curious as well.

Just look at some of the repertoire!

Erm, actually I have performed live shed-loads of the repertoire: Beethoven Mozart and Haydn sonatas; Chopin Ballades Etudes and Scherzi; Bach Toccatas and a fair few of the 48; Lizst B minor and quite a lot of the Annees; Brahms.............Rachmaninov...............Debussy........... etc plus a fair few concerti by manyof the above.

I can think of a RH run of thirds in a Haydn Eb sonata. There are a couple of nasty ones in Weber's Grand Duo Concertante for Clarinet and Piano, although these are editable so they can be played with both hands. There are a couple of tiny runs in the last movement of Brahms 2nd concerto that don't really qualify for the term 'run'.

These are the occurences of 'passages' in thirds that I can think of immediately. No doubt there are more and I would probably be able to come up with them if I needed to. Nevertheless, I cannot see the justification for scales in thirds in grade 8. I definitely cannot think of a two octave ascending\descending run of thirds in C in an actual piece of music.

You ought to get out more!

You are not far wrong. When not teaching\practising the piano, I write software for Forex trading. Nerd central, me.

I think you are just playing devil's advocate! The original reason is to develop some useful co-ordination, not to be able to play the scales for their own sake. There may of course be better ways.


.. and long slow series of legato thirds in the LH of the slow movement of the famous Cm sonata ...


Yes - very few pieces have long runs in thirds, but huge numbers of pieces have short passages of three or four thirds in a row, and the co-ordination learned playing a scale transfers directly to real music.

I agree that the Grade 8 requirements are massive overkill for the requirement of actually playing.

(But I bet you can actually play scales in every key in double thirds, and make them sound like music!)

Alternatively, for anyone else fainting at the massive AB scales overkill ( great phrase, Tom), TG Grade 8 requires all of 9 ordinary scales - 3 each of majs, mels and harmonics - plus 3 chromatics, and 2 double 3rds . This is a sensible and realistic syllabus (imo).

Poss too late for organist, though?

Slightly, MT, but only slightly.

I am not against individuals acquiring facility for its own sake when that is what the individual wants to do. Far from it; when that makes the individual happy, then I am all for it. The individual will benefit hugely from it.

I am against putting people through hoops just for the sake of it. Given the age at which most people take grade 8 piano (post 16 but pre-university), few are likely to benefit from the activity described above. For the majority, grade 8 sadly is the pinnacle they never reach again; they go to uni and that is it as far as their piano playing is concerned.

So, I have to ask myself what benefit is a particular activity to a student taking grade 8 now. Sadly, the AB comes up short most of the time.

That is why my pianists take TG exams. I am still closely associated with AB exams as an accompanist and teacher of theory, especially post grade 5. I just think TG is better for my pianists.

I would not even blanche at a scale in thirds if it formed part of a 'one scale played well is a benefit, whilst 200 played badly is a waste of time' culture. 1 each of: major, harmonic and melodic minor with associated arps; a chromatic; 1 scale in octaves would make some sense in terms of coordination. If coordination at speed is the requirement, then the minors could be ditched as well. Let's face it, if a pianist can hurtle up and down the piano with both hands playing in unison, then the individual scale makes no difference. It is the ability to hurtle that counts.

And yes, I can play most scales in thirds and make them sound reasonably musical, but I learned to do this as an in-my-30's pro, not a 17 year old amateur. Mind, I think I wasted my time as I never need to play them except when showing off to pupils.

So, not a total waste of time after all.

I disagree. If a 17-year-old amateur can't handle all the scale requirements for the grade, then don't take the exam or try a board that has less rigorous requirements. I don't think it's right to dumb down the requirements just so that a young amateur could have an easier time preparing for the exam.

I think that the current AB Grade 8 requirements are very fair. I personally would like to see students being able to play various scale and arpeggio patterns in all 24 major and minor keys. While students may not need all that technical facility in the three exam pieces, having a solid technical foundation would allow them to learn new repertoire and sight read difficult passages more efficiently. Also, deep knowledge in all the keys would prepare students for developing well-rounded musicianship that includes work in keyboard harmony and improvisation.

Obviously, few teenage students would reach that advanced stage. But that doesn't mean that the AB should cater the requirements toward younger candidates. The way I see it, a student passing Grade 8 with a high merit or distinction is a competent amateur who may proceed to advanced studies. The student's age and career aspiration are irrelevant.

Few teenagers have the time to learn the AB scales properly. Even when known fluently, merely playing through them takes over an hour - more time than most of them have to practise. Unless they are preparing for a career in music, the demands of 'A' level study leave them with little time for other activities if they are taking their academic study seriously.

The exponential rise in the piano scale requirements from grade 5 upwards cause problems from that stage. The result is that scales are not mastered and so continue to be weak throughout. By the time the candidates reach grade 8, a lot of them never get past the bluff-and-hope stage. This is the classic example of how little use are a vast number of scales played badly.

By comparison, TG candidates benefit from their scale work. There are but a few and they can be mastered without sacrificing something else that they would prefer to do.

Following my switch to TG a few years ago, I have been able to produce more grade 8 candidates. This is because my students have always worked out whether they will have the time to prepare for the exam properly and either gone ahead or not accordingly. Previously, the volume of scales required by the AB often tipped the balance against taking the exam. This was a pity as it robbed them of an opportunity to achieve something that all successful candidates value throughout their lives.

There were other reasons for the switch: TG's musical demands are more stringent than those made by the AB - this disadvantages less talented individuals but I can help them overcome this; their ear tests always were better for my pianists, more so following the syllabus revamp; the opportunity for flexibility in the syllabus was always there, more so following the revamp; the choice of pieces is wider; TG are less inclined to select pieces because they tick the correct technical requirements, boxes even though they are desperate pieces of music.

So, a number of reasons lay behind my switch. The biggest, though, was the scale thingy.

might this little clip help you a little? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE7D6qqpAGw...yer_profilepage



Allzwell

If car insurers know anything about 17 year old boys then I suspect many such teenagers will try to play the scales too quickly. So perhaps there's a risk of damaging rather than improving technique?

The only sure advantage of scales and technical exercises (that I can see) is for examiners: it provides a slightly more objective measurement of technical prowess than listening to pieces. Perhaps it is helpful to music schools when selecting candidates. I don't know.

The argument that certain exercises are useful because they help with problems that crop up in the repertoire seems back-to-front, to me. If a certain problem is common then the novice will learn it as he encounters it in new pieces that he wants to play. Technical skill co-evolves with finding good music that one strongly desires to learn.

Certainly, in the case of scales, the fingering seldom seems applicable in real pieces I have tried to play! I think the most value I have got out of scales is knowledge of the key signatures. Although even here I can't say for sure whether I got to know them with more or less efficiency that I would have otherwise.

It is true that a lot of fine learners and players spend a great deal of time with exercises. However perhaps this is really a sign of their commitment to the piano rather than an illustration of the value of scales themselves.

One very interesting thing about learning the piano is that beginners as well as experts can be sources of good explanations about learning. Many or most great players have little idea how they came to be so good.

Why should this be? Is it because they learnt in their early childhoods? Is it because human beings are hugely complicated and so what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another? Is it because musicanship demands spiritual qualities?

It does seem intellectually lazy to call it 'talent', as many of us do, and pretty hard on those people deemed to be without it.

I'm go to have to disagree with that. Last year, I was doing 4 full subjects plus several in-school extra curricular things yet somehow managed to find time for 3 hours of piano practise a night for most of the term before my grade 8 as well as a good hour or more of recorder practise. It would have been, on average, at least an hour per day more than that if I'd known about the school practise rooms. I would like to stress that I am not aiming at a career in music or going to do music at uni.

That is brilliant, Sarah, and I hope your efforts were rewarded with a brilliant result.

In my experience, you are in a tiny minority of students able to devote so much time to this.

It might take a long time to learn the scales if they've been previously neglected. I found that I'd learned all major and minor scales some time before I got round to grade 5 piano. They were part of normal life from the beginning.
For later grades there were variations to learn like staccato and 3rds and 6ths but these would be pretty well sorted well before being ready to start the next grade exam pieces.
And you don't have to do them all once they are learnt. I had a scale rota which covered everything over 4 days and took 30-40 minutes depending on how much I felt I needed to go over again

Most students find plenty of time to go out getting drunk and stealing traffic cones Take that away and there's plenty of time to practice Piano

but then they'd be even more unnecessary cones on our roads.....

If they weren't getting drunk and stealing traffic cones, doesn't mean they would be practising the piano; especially not scales.

Actually, can drunk students really pinch traffic cones? Doesn't carrying them require a certain amount of muscular coordination? Or am I just showing my lack of experience of cone-stealing here?

Who says you need to be drunk to steal a traffic cone?

There is my lack of experience again. As you will learn as you progress through life, Sarah, experience is everything.

This is the fingering I use too for the thirds in the RH in the ascending scale. Although it wasn't easy to get used to going from 3/5 to 1/2 I've got used to it now, and coming down the scale it's much easier.


I find the chromatic minor thirds much easier to play than the ordinary thirds.

I agree with sbhoa. I've just prepared two 12-year-olds for Grade 8 a few months ago, and both scored very well on the scales and arpeggios. Toward the final weeks of preparation, I required them to practise the scales and arpeggios over a 2-day cycle as they usually practise only five days a week. It took about 20 minutes each time to cover the materials.

Perhaps PianoDoodler needs to modify his/her pedagogical approach so that his/her Grade 8 pupils could acquire a stronger technical foundation while they develop their musicality.

They do fine, thanks. Study of the repertoire achieves this brilliantly and without boring them to tears. Technical development is thus natural and not forced. They do not wast time playing ridiculous numbers of scales, instead spending their time in productive and poetic activities that improve their playing in ways that pointless scale playing can never match.

Acquiring technique for its own sake is arid and pointless. Acquiring it in the pursuit of poetic, musical playing is wonderful. That is what my lot do.

I must disagree with PianoDoodler once again. Students and teachers who truly know their stuff should not find scales boring and pointless. For one thing, they should find it useful and fun if they approach them musically. Secondly, if the students have the technical facility, it shouldn't take long to go through the required examples.

So scales are easy if one already has the technical facility to play them? Interesting.

I must have misunderstood you, so my apologies. I thought you were saying that mastery of scales was necessary to acquiring technical facility, not the other way around. It seems we are in some measure of agreement after all.

I should clarify my personal approach to teaching scales at the higher grades. I don't expect students to spend more than 20-25 minutes of each practice on scales and arpeggios. I typically assign a pair of major and minor keys each week. For the more difficult keys such as Eb minor, I would allow students to spend two weeks to learn various scale and arpeggio patterns. After all the required keys have been covered, I would ask students to review specific patterns each week, e.g. all the scales starting on the tonic, scales with the hands a 3rd apart, dominant seventh and diminished seventh arpeggios, etc. Students should have mastered the materials after they have learned them for a second time. By that stage, they don't need to spend much time to go through the many examples set for the grade.