So everyone keeps saying.
Would someone like to explain exactly how it is flawed and what is the proper logical conclusion?

What Tom did not say:
"someone who doesn't give up their job, default on their mortgage, to spend more time practising, does not have music high enough up their priority list".

What Tom did say:
"It is the same with people that complain about the hours they "have" to work, or the length of the daily commute, or lack of practice facilities. If they really put music first they would change the job, move house, somehow find a place to do the necessary practice. It may take some time to arrange, possibly years, but they would do it - they would have a plan, they would get there, whatever it takes. If they do not make these changes then they do not put their music quite so high up their priorities as they may profess".

NB, "they do not put their music quite so high up their priorities" does not equate to "does not have music high enough up their priority list".

I am sorry about that.

Taking on a new instrument is a brave thing. Whenever I am tempted I realize that it would just be time I could more usefully spend on the one instrument that I am still a long way from mastering.

And it seems to me that you are anything but a selfish person. Rather the opposite - someone who habitually puts the needs of others above their own, and not weak, but possibly just a little bit resentful at times.

What we could all really do with is a 30 hour day!

It might sound like I am totally fanatical about the piano, and have little patience for anyone with less commitment, but that is not true. I am only moderately fanatical ! And my extra practice time has not been bought at the expense of sabotaging personal relationships or of never giving time and energy to help others. They have suffered a little, but not excessively.

It has come instead at the cost of other things I enjoy and have some talent for - running, swimming, chess and similar games, inventing mechanical devices, creating educational materials, photography, playing a second instrument, writing for magazines, improving my skills as a programmer ... . Work-wise I dropped out of the pursuit of promotion and extra responsibility and took the option of a 36 hour week, long holidays, and lower pay rather than 40+ hours, normal holidays, and material affluence. I also choose to live in a small but expensive house close to work and the city centre rather than a more palatial place, but with a long commute.

If I were 100% committed to piano, and rather more selfish, I'd probably be divorced now (because who can stand 6 or 7 hours of someone elses piano practice every day and stay sane!), retired, and living somewhere out of the way where my modest savings and pensions would afford some isolated place.

The truth is that I "wasted" probably 20 years when I devoted most of my "spare" time to other pursuits, and tried to cram in a ridiculous number of activities alongside the reponsibility of raising a child and providing for a family. All I am doing now is over-compensating - but not in a totally fanatical manner.

However, this explains why I am as acutely aware as anyone of the problem of limited time, and of the cruel reality of it. A human life is not that long. 70 years x 365 days is not a very large number. Even if I spent every waking moment at the piano I'd still be dead long before I had properly learned even 10% of the compositions that I love. (See the quote from Chaucer below)

But the original post was a question about what are the problems facing older learners. Finding the time is just one. There are many more.

I have a husband who likes to go on holiday and take me with him.
This year I managed to keep it down to once but somehow it never seems to be at the 'right' time for me....

Am I missing something here? That sounds perfectly logical to me. Learning to play a musical instrument to a high standard takes a large number of hours. Time has to be found for it. The more time you can find per week, the quicker you will achieve your goals - whatever they may be.

Looking at the original question, I think our main "problem" is that we know how far away we are from achieving any sort of "professional" standard. Unlike younger learners, we've often considerable experience of listening to and appreciating music and--thanks to the high quality and wide availability of modern day recordings--we've all heard the very, very best, and probably little else. Amateur music amongst adults, unless I'm much mistaken, is a lot less common than it used to be and almost everyone has a stereo. I think that, possibly unconsciously, we tend to set ourselves very high standards that we'll never meet.

So, on a hiding to nothing? Might as well give up now? I don't think so. In my own case I've gained a deal of insight into just how skilled virtuoso performers are and now -- although I know I'll never sound like Hans Martin Lindt or Michala Petri (great recorder players) -- I appreciate their playing in a way I couldn't before. Learning to read music has also given me an insight into how it works and that has also improved my overall appreciation of the art enormously.

I think someone in another post mentioned getting involved in organising musical events. Well, that can be great too. My wife and I are in the process of "rescuing" our village music school from terminal decline (on a purely voluntary basis). Pulling the finances back into shape and organising events for the kids to get involved in has been tremendously rewarding. If that means doing a bit less practice for now, I'll catch up later.

Music--learning it and listening to it--is fun….. serious fun OK (I practice very hard when I'm at it), but still fun….

I'd have more to say if I didn't want to keep this as short as possible. Can we keep this thread running?

The Elephant

P.S. I also agree with others who have said that "ageism" is rife out there. I started the recorder at 59 (worse still the soprano !!), an instrument that is regarded where I live as a kid's toy. As I said in another post, owning up to such thing makes people suspect the onset of second childhood!!!

Don't regret it. It is fun, and will ultimately be useful to everyone that has got involved. And some people just like to stir up argument for the sake of it. I am sure we all mature enough to argue, disagree, even insult and upset each other, and not become mortal enemies because of it. Well - most of us.

You are absolutely right, it can be difficult or impossible. If it is only "at times" you don't really have a problem. If it is "almost always" then the answer is not to continually improvise from day to day to make the odd half hour available now and then, but to have a long term plan to re-organize things so that there is almost always sufficient time to practice. That process begins with a detailed audit of exactly where all your time goes now, and a prioritized lists of your present commitments.

As ( petrat - sorry, it was actually) keriobe pointed out, you probably did not consciously choose them, but just drifted into them, or went along with expectations from others about how you would live your life, or made a lot of choices that seemed individually sensible but in aggregate add up to something less than ideal.

But when you become a. dissatisfied, and b. aware of choices, then you have the power to change things. Not in a blundering, impetuous, way, nor selfishly and inconsiderately, nor necessarily immediately, but in a planned, mature way.

It is very similar though - do we have to be so pedantic?

Doubtless you are referring to me here. I have no desire to stir up argument "for the sake of it" - you just refuse to be wrong about anything - ever.

No it isn't.

Who's we? I'm not being pedantic.

At the risk of descending into pantomine, yes, it is.

Yes, you are.

It is not pedantic. The meanings are different, though most of the words are the same.

"they do not put their music quite so high up their priorities" = an objective observation of what is
"does not have music high enough up their priority list" = a value judgement

It is that little word "enough" that transforms the meaning. I made the objective statement, not the value judgement. I do not believe that you really can't tell the difference. I know you are not stupid, so the only conclusion I can draw is that you are deliberately conflating the two because you enjoy misrepresenting what people say, making smart-alec comments, and generally stirring things up. I understand that. I like to be a smart-alec now and again. I am just not witty enough to make a career out of it. But I think it is time to stop.


All of my posts have been aimed at making the point that bemoaning the fact that there is not enough time to do something we want is not usfeul. It is not going to change the situation. And going on from that to make the single point that we all have exactly the same amount of time available to us, and if someone wants to spend more time on music then they have to spend less on something else. But things will not magically change. It is up to each of us to decide our priorities and organize our lives.

I may have expressed it rather harshly, and come across as uncaring and unsympathetic, but that is a hazard of this form of communication. What I say on this matter is reality, and ignoring reality is rarely productive.

Of course if someone does not really want anything to change, but is just seeking some sympathy - a metaphorical arm round the shoulder then I have missed the point entirely. Proposing solutions and analysis when what is wanted is sympathy - that seems to be a male thing as in "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus".

But deep down my posts have always been intended to help.

I see no evidence of any similar desire to help or contribute useful advice in anything you have said in this thread. Just a carping, argumentative sniping. I object to being told that I hold beliefs that I do not hold. I object to having my words misinterpreted, quoted out of context, and deliberately misunderstood, and reduced to absurdity when I am trying to be helpful, and have gone to great pains to put the points over with no ambiguity. If you are not provoking argument "for the sake of it" then why did you provoke it and why are you are prolonging it?

But like I said we can "argue, disagree, even insult and upset each other, and not become mortal enemies".

As for refusing to be wrong about anything ever. When I am wrong I admit it freely - and have done many times on this forum - but on this I am not wrong.

Nonsense. I am female and I am habitually doing exactly this, and getting the same kind of reaction - often from men!

I entirely agree with your original post, but for many people, it's just not a natural way of thinking and they respond emotionally rather than logically.

I agree too. When I first re-started saxophone about 8 years ago I kept telling myself and my teacher that I didn't have time to practise much. Then I decided that making progress musically was important to me, so I reprioritised and freed up enough time to do 5-7 hours a week. I've made a number of sacrifices in order to do that, including turning down invitations on nights out because I needed to practice. More substantially taking on a role at work with predictable hours, and crucially, based in London even though it's effectively ruled me out for promotion This was enough for me to make quite a lot of progress. Now I realise I need to at least double that to continue at the same rate. There are many ways this might be possible including selling up and living somewhere cheaper, drastically cutting down on spending etc so that I can afford to work part-time rather than full-time. I've seriously considered this but I've decided that I don't want to make those changes at this stage in my life and I've compromised on my music because I don't want to give up the luxuries and relative security that full-time work allows me to indulge in. I haven't ruled it out forever, and certainly when the mortgage is paid off I'll think again, but for now music is fairly high, but not at the top of my priority list.

Lack of time is indeed the difficulty I find: most of us taking up music as mature individuals already have a string of commitments...and need to keep them in mind when juggling our time for playing. Those strings of commitments may to some extent be shifted around, or organised around, but for many of us, they still remain, and whatever our own flexibilities might be, they splint us into our working week. I am a GP - I need the money I earn because my financial arrangements are based on the income I bring in: if I then take up music, whilst I might be able to dip into any spares I have in order to buy instruments or pay for a few lessons or a course...I still have mortgage, professional expenses, clothing and food for my family to pay for, and I also owe them the time they come to expect from me, and the affection they deserve, and human interaction, to which they're entitled. They pre-exist the music: as well as my own priorities, I have to decide how much to ask of the others in my life to adjust for the music, and in my view, if they don't see a huge amount of benefit, then I'm being selfish to ask them to make sacrifices for my personal gain. Our decisions have impact on more than our own lives, and to reduce such decisions only to our own is misleading - and blinkered.
Other difficulties: self-consciousness, for me, is, as it has for Katyjay, lessening as I get better. I have made the occasional recording of my playing, and can hear that I'm improving, as well as finding that I can sightread stuff I'd not have been able to attempt for love nor money only a few years ago. I can play to an audience, still get very nervous beforehand, but am able to put whatever it is which makes music more than the sum of the notes on the page together - and it feels great to be able to do so.
Being aware of the limitations of a lifetime is a bugbear, coupled with the changes of ageing - I'm very shortsighted, and am now also finding some difficulty in reading my music when there are lots of ledger lines, or when lighting is dim. In the mornings my hands are a bit stiff and take time to get flexible and mobile - which had meant that 9am starts for exams were not wonderful...I am at least making enough progress that I think I could probably manage to learn pieces of the sort of difficulty I'd like to before I have to stop, but am aware of a sense of urgency to keep the learning going at the same sort of rate in order to achieve that.
Prejudice against the adult learner are rife, I've also encountered that, and could do with a few more folk saying, "great, I wish I were learning music too" rather than, "why would you need to take lessons?" with that expression which says, kids only please, it's not something an adult takes seriously.
And yes, the difficulties of finding like-minded people to play with, and a willing audience to play to, have also been very much to the forefront for some time: I found the former first time round in my husband, and then again from contacts in his workplace, and here on the fora, and the latter is, I hope, growing, as acquaintances become aware of the urge I have to play, and indulge me in that desire .

I do try to be helpful on the forums, but sometimes I become frustrated at sweeping generalisations and the lack of respect shown to my ideas and opinions (I don't specifically mean you here).
I apologise for anything I have said that you feel is inappropriate.

A plea !!

I'm fairly new to this forum, but couldn't there be an "argument" thread somewhere so that all those who want to engage in one-to-one discussion could move over to that space...

I've found the posts addressing the original question here extremely interesting and relevant, but the ding-dong argument between some participants is seriously getting in the way....

I don't know if anyone has suggested this already, as I couldn't be doing with ploughing through all the bickery posts, but:

Getting started/restarted.

Utterly terrifying.

At least the soprano recorder isn't as expensive to buy, run and insure as a bright red sports car, so you can't be having a mid-life crisis!
(Disclaimer: I have never had either a soprano recorder or a bright red sports car, so I might be wrong on that).

and I agree that learning music and listening to it is fun. I think that I find it most difficult to motivate myself to practice when I've been in school (teaching maths) from 8am-3:30pm, run the maths club at lunchtime, then done two hours' prep and marking after school, come home, then had a choir rehearsal from 7:30-10pm and when I get back I need to do some flute practice.

That said, at least with teaching I get lovely summer holidays!

I also agree with tamsin - it took me over a year to get around to ringing my flute teacher and making an appointment for my first lesson, and I'd had the flute and wanted to play it for nearly 10 years by then!

SO true Tamsin!

You bet !!!

I still can't imagine how I managed to sign up for my first lesson !!

My challenges are:

1. Finding quality time (when I can focus on doing something) to practise
2. Overcoming the loneliness of a piano learner

I don't find that a problem seeing as I'm too busy playing/practicing to care

I have plenty of quality social time with friends when I'm not busy on the piano so it balances out nicely.

Ellie-the-little-elephant: " At least the soprano recorder isn't as expensive to buy, run and insure as a bright red sports car, so you can't be having a mid-life crisis!

What does it mean if I bought a bright red soprano recorder? !!!

(apart from the fact that I have bad taste)

That you will shortly buy an orange descant recorder, followed by a yellow treble recorder, a green tenor recorder etc etc until you have an entire set of them arranged like a rainbow?

I agree wholeheartedly with both of these comments. Regarding the issue of "professional" standards, I think someone else has also posted about how recordings are often edited so that (eg) breaths are no longer audible, which actually makes them into an unrealistic and unattainable model which no learner is going to be able to replicate. For instance, I keep wincing at the level of key noise I sometimes make (which you never hear on recordings), but then I figure - I'm having to move up to 8 keys and close 8 tone-holes in a large metal tube pretty quickly: how could anyone do that completely silently??

As for ageism: my son (10 yrs old - plays trumpet) and I did a duet recently at a church service. Afterwards, one of the congregation commented to me: "Didn't he do well?". Given that (a) he's been learning for 2 years (and has perfect pitch) whereas I've been learning for 6 months (and don't), and (b) my part was actually the more difficult of the two, I was fuming inwardly for several minutes afterwards After a while, I did see the funny side of it, though

Another problem which adults tend to have more than children is sheer physical limitations.

I know it's not a hard and fast rule - I know adults who don't have any problems in this area, and other people who learned music as children despite huge problems. But as we get older our bodies do tend to lose some of their bounce-back-ability don't they!

For me, being chronically ill is probably, when I think about it, the thing that holds me back the most. There are definitely other factors, and I am far from saying that I would be a wonderful musician if I wasn't ill (apart from anything else, I'd probably have a full time non-music-related job!), but the sheer energy that just holding a flute up for long enough to do a decent practice is sometimes beyond me.

I have seriously boring amounts of free time (habing nothing to do sounds fun till you are doing nothing because breathing and feeding yourself is all you can manage) but only enough energy and brainpower to use a very small amount of it for all the productive things that I long to be doing.

I know I am a relatively extreme example, but I also know that most people I talk to about it complain that their reflexes are slowing and their muscles and joints don't work as well as they used to. Playing music and so on can slow the bad stuff down, but I still look back in awe to the kind of mental and physical agility I had when I was younger!

For me at least, this is probably the most limiting, and definitely by far the most frustrating, factor.

I would say one of the bigger challenges I've found is finding a beginners group/band to play in - and I live in London where there ought to be lots. The local conservatoire teaches adults but has nothing in the way of groups/orchestras for beginner adults. Tis ok once you reach grade 6 and above as an adult, but no-one would suggest to an instrument learning child that they'd have to wait till then to be able to join a group.

I know my tone still isn't great and I've still got a huge amount to learn, but I do have confidence that if I put in the practice I can reap what I sow. But how on earth are you supposed to improve your timing and ensemble playing if no one wants you till grade 6? I've played with backing tapes and in duets with my teacher but it really isn't the same.

Finally about 2 months ago I discovered a flute choir about half an hour away and it's fantastic as they take all levels. It's hard work but there are parts for everyone. I'm probably the lowest grade there but I'm really enjoying adding my small bit alongside the more advanced players and I'm learning loads. Yay for Opal Flutes!

I've been lucky in that the Music Centres run by the local education authority music service near here are open to adult learners; however, they don't advertise themselves as such - I just noticed that there were some adults in the ensembles when I went along to a concert which my son was playing in, and as a result plucked up the courage to ask if I could join, too. The kids (for it is mostly kids in the Junior Band, which is my level of ability) didn't bat an eyelid at my coming along, though, so it was worth taking the plunge, and my playing (esp sight-reading) has improved hugely as a result.

If there are music centres near you, it might be worth asking the music centre leader if adult learners can join?