As a fairly new adult learner (started on alto sax 6 months ago at the age of 38, though I did learn piano for 8 years as a child), I was wondering what others feel are the biggest obstacles / challenges for us? Mine seem to be:

- finding time to practise
- fingering speed (this is really bothering me at the moment!)
- a nagging worry that I have left it too late and will never really get to a level of competence I am happy with (though I will admit to having rather high standards )
- too self-conscious to play in front of others (this was initially a problem even with my teacher though I am starting to get over that now, fortunately). My 10 year old son seems completely unself-conscious and sails through public performances, exams etc - sigh!

Hi, with me it's very quick high passages.
I know what Mad Tom will say...........more practise

My biggest challenges are similar to yours: finding time to practice, and fearing that I'll never be as good as I want to be. That said, I have now been studying for long enough that I have found that I am enjoying the journey.

Biggest challenges to adult learners? All of the above and more!

As I started to learn the piano six years ago, I was so immersed in concentrating on what I was doing as I played, I found I was unable to hear myself objectively. By this, I mean: what I could hear was not what others heard - for example,
not keeping a regular pulse,
balance between the hands not even remotely achieved,
poor fingering disturbing the flow of the music.

etc etc etc

For a long time I was blissfully unaware of all these things and more, as I simply could not 'step outside' of what I was doing and listen to the end-product.

Solution? Record yourself playing and then play it back. It's totally agonising at first, but I gradually became accustomed to hearing what others hear when I play. It really helps with building confidence for playing to others too.

denmark

I think the biggest challenge is simply accepting that it's going to take a long time.

I think the 2 biggest problems (looking at my family members) are:

1. thinking that you know better than the teacher and not listening to/accepting constructive criticism.
2. trying to progress too quickly ie. playing pieces that are technically more challenging rather than concentrating on producing a nice sound

I am deffinitely much more self conscious as an adult.

Playing in front of my teacher is still a challenge!

Time management is my biggest challenge to the point I'm going to have to take a year 'off' weekly lessons and exams (I'm finishing a post-grad degree in a different subject). I'm still planning to play but not on a structured basis.. just an 'as and when' I'm really going to miss it.

Strangely I was a nervous wreck playing in front of people/examiners as a child but as an adult I'm quite enjoying it and don't now get exam nerves in the exam itself (plenty for the week beforehand though!) I think it's because music matters far less now than back then - I was going to be studying music at Uni whereas now it's just a hobby.

Now THAT I can relate to! I have lost count of the number of times my husband has reminded me that I've only been playing for 3/4/6 months...

This and being terrified of performance (although I invariably enjoy it when I do it) and exams (which I invariably hate even when I'm actually doing them! lol)

Wow, are my eyes deceiving me? Is that a sarah-flute I see? Hi Sarah, lovely to see you again.

For me as an adult learner I think the time thing is the most difficult to deal with. Most of the time I manage to put in an OK amount of practice (5ish hours a week). I'm very aware thought that to make the sort of progress I'd like to make that needs to be at least doubled. And from time to time work and/or other commitments conspire to get in the way. For me, with sax, if I don't put the time in my playing deteriorates quite rapidly. I had a lesson a few weeks ago after a couple of weeks of working late and little practice. My oh so tactful teacher's comments were "well, the notes are OK - the sound's a bit horrible though, what are you doing?". In the end though, I choose to not stress too much about it. My playing and the progress I make is down to me and for me alone, and it's up to me to find a balance I can live with.

Making time to practise will always be a challenge. Also learning as an adult I am much more self-conscious about the quality of the sound I am making - when the neighbours are out I am much bolder in my practising. But I think the self-consciousness is lessening as my playing becomes more confident. Has anyone else found this?

*waves* hello! good to be back!


I guess it's a bit different for me as most of the instruments I (try to) play I didn't actually start as an adult. I did, however, used to be very self conscious. loving in a mid terrace, till my neighbours on both sides spontaneously commented how much they liked hearing "real music". Considering I was practising scales at the time, I took that to mean that they couldn't mind too much when I was actually playing music...

In my experience, and quite often even when you think you sound awful, those listening are a good deal more sympathetic and impressed. You may well find your neighbours really enjoy your playing

As a teacher this is the number one thing that frustrates me when teaching adults!



As an adult learner I completely relate to this!

Thanks sarah-flute - I shall bear this in mind!!

Argh! Those both remind me of someone I taught for a while - she had a change in medication which affected her breathing, and I couldn't decide if I was sorry to see her go or not!

She could play all these G5 ish level pieces, and her fingers were in the right places, but the tone was really nasty and the transitions between notes were not good.

I sent her away with a bit of encouragement about the speed at which she was able to play, made some tactful suggestions about tone, and gave her some exercises to work on for the next two weeks which could and should have started to really change how she sounded and improve how she played.

She came back two weeks later having done *nothing* I asked her to do, and having decided that the best use of her time was to take the plugs out of her open hole flute. She actually contrived to sound worse than she had in the first lesson! I wanted to cry, and it was incredibly difficult to find something encouraging to say... I wanted to throttle her

The really sad thing was that for an adult learner the speed of her fingers was remarkable, and she had an absolutely gorgeous flute which played like a dream through three octaves with no yucky notes. If she had spent even a quarter of her practice time doing what she had been asked she could have seen and heard SO much improvement in that short time.

I took up the flute two years ago:

1. I am retired so that helps me find time to practise (but this doesn't suit everyone here!)
2. My fingering speed was very slow when I started, but it is getting better by actually knowing what the notes are, and what the fingering for them is. Practising runs with different rhythms from those written also helps a lot.
3. You can't possibly have left it too late at 38 . I started the flute at age 67 after 61 years of piano-playing - this was a great help for reading music but a total disaster for learning the flute fingering. (See also answer 2 again!) But check out my signature to see how I am getting on
4. I too was self-conscious and this was a hangover from my piano playing. I made my mind up to try not to be the same with my flute playing, and I found that being an adult learner gained me a lot of sympathy points from friends whom I made listen to me. I am learning to overcome this problem through the help of Forum Events, and it has also allowed me to start playing piano in front of strangers.

I am not sure I have answered the question . But I am getting so much fun and satisfaction from starting afresh with music and a new instrument.

My teacher wouldn't have tried to find something encouraging to say, he'd have said "it sound's really horrible, there's no point in working on anything else when you sound as bad as that". Possibly not so bluntly (it would have been at least that blunt to me. My lesson's don't tend to to do a lot for my ego - they do do quite a lot for my playing though.

It was tempting to be honest! If it hadn't been only our second lesson...

The biggest challenge comes when you've been around the forums for a while and you have to learn to resist the temptation to take up all the instruments that everyone else is playing


Welcome to the forums, by the way, saxophile!

Biggest Challenges For Adult Learners?

1. Commitment. Showing by action that music is indeed as important as we profess. Doing the hard work. Making the time to do it instead of complaining about there not being enough time. We all have the same amount of time. How we use it is always a choice. We can all change our circumstances if we want to. Few of us need be passive victims. But there may be a price to pay: th sacrifices of other things that matter to us.

2. Ageism. Rampant in the music world, in three ways

- preference for a young performer over an older one
- enormously more playing opportunities for younger students
- the conditioned belief that you need to be a child prodigy to become a good musician.

3. Patience. Be realistic about how long it takes to improve. What (through false expectations) you think is slow, may well be at the upper end of the progress scale

4. Bad habits. They have had longer to become established. They take proportionately more time and effort to eliminate

5. Performance nerves. They seem to get worse with age. If you suffer badly it takes special attention to many aspects of your life and beliefs learn to play well in public. Simply forcing yourself to do it, over and over, is necessary, but by itself is not enough.

I think my experience has been a bit different from some of the adult learners on here.

Maybe I had unrealistically low expectations, but I find myself continually surprised at how far I've come and how quickly. When I started singing lessons six and a half years ago, I'd never have predicted that I would now be on the verge of a Fellowship exam, would regularly be performing in public, would be teaching singing to others. Nor would I have expected to have three other grade 8s, or to be playing the violin!

I get frustrated at ageism, that's something I definitely agree with Mad Tom about. The comment that still rankles for me is the one I received at an ABRSM High Scorer's Concert that such events should only be for kids, and that it wasn't fair for an adult to take part.

I think time management is a challenge, but again, I agree to some extent with Mad Tom. Each of us can decide how much time we want to put into our music, and that choice will have an impact on how much we can progress. Personally, I decided that the day job got in the way too much, so I gave it up

The biggest thing for me was the lack of people to perform to, or to play with. And the solution to that has been the Forums, and the friends I've made through them. The Adult Learner events Sbhoa and I set up have been the catalyst for more music-making for a lot of people, including me

Two big challenges, each in 2 parts:

Time & patience
Motivation and commitment




. . . and may be positively counter-productive.

Another vote for time being a constant challenge. I have also been surprised how lacking in confidence I have felt at times - I think I am so used to feeling in control and effective that it really can be an exposing experience to be anything but capable! I am not an exam or performance oriented player but even so I sometimes struggle to remember this is supposed to be a joy when I am berated myself for cello-related musical idiocy.

My only other concern as an adult learner is that my teacher will move on!

I am with you there on both points Miss Sooky.

I get a bit angry at times when fingers and embouchure don't play the notes I want them to, but the thing for me is to make sure that when they do, I give a big smile and a cheer and feel very pleased - this acts as a big counter-balance to the difficult times.

I also would feel devastated if my teacher had to stop teaching me.

ain't that the truth!!


I think that is a common though not necessarily universal experience with adult learners. Children think they are pretty cool just to play all the notes right and frequently don't understand why the teacher expects more of them. They're also used to constantly not knowing things and constantly learning news stuff... it's how their world works. Adults often, though not always, expect more of themselves, and are in the habit of being able to do things. Being in a position of incompetence can be very disconcerting!

I *hope* I'm not guilty of this (maybe I should ask my teacher! ) , though I do think I know my own personality and its quirks (eg self-confidence or otherwise) better than my teacher, as least at present!





Hmm - I think personal circumstances can't always be changed: certainly when you have youngish kids, there are certain responsibilities which can't be dodged or shelved, and whilst my OH is fairly understanding, I have no right to demand or expect that he take on my share of these. (Similarly, given the volume of sound produced by a saxophone, my family might have views on the issue if I decided to sacrifice sleep in order to get in additional practice ). But I agree that prioritising practice above most other alternatives for use of "free" time is key.

I don't think you have grasped the essence of my argument. I am not talking about prioritising free time. If you are an adult then unless you are locked up in prison, or living under a strongly totalitarian system you always have choices. You have indicated three of yours.

1. putting your young children first/devoting more time to saxophone
2. getting optimum sleep/ sacrificing some sleep to gain practice
3. respecting other people's desire for silence/,making as much noise as it takes to practice

If you choose to devote yourself to you children, get enough sleep, and spare the rest of the household the extra hours of noise that simply means that you value those choices above becoming the best saxophone player you could be.

Most people would applaud putting the well-being of your children first. To do otherwise would lay you open to the charge of being selfish and a bad mother - and if you had made those choices that would probably be the truth. Nevertheless they are options. Not easy ones.

I have no moral view one way or the other. They are your choices. The pursuit of excellence can be (not necessarily is) very destructive of relationships, and may not lead to happiness or contentment either.

It is the same with people that complain about the hours they "have" to work, or the length of the daily commute, or lack of practice facilities. If they really put music first they would change the job, move house, somehow find a place to do the necessary practice. It may take some time to arrange, possibly years, but they would do it - they would have a plan, they would get there, whatever it takes. If they do not make these changes then they do not put their music quite so high up their priorities as they may profess.

There is no value judgement here. No-one is saying what anyone else ought or ought not to do. It is IF ... THEN reasoning.

Unfortunately, this is not possible for people who live on their own and need to pay the mortgage!

So, you suggest that someone who doesn't give up their job, default on their mortgage, to spend more time practising, does not have music high enough up their priority list??

I am teaching myself classical and learning folk with a group, playing violin. The classical stuff I find okay, and am gradually working my way through books. Finding time to practise is always an issue, and the difference between half an hour a day and skipping two days is radical.

Other problem is I absolutely love the folk, and can play some things okay, but the group I'm working with all either get more time to practise than I do, or are just rather better than me (we've been playing for roughly the same amount of time). I am useless at short-time sight reading - ie trying to play something before I know it reasonably well, and I tend to think that as messing up in session ruins the sound for everyone else, I tend not to go unless I'm really confident. Which then means I end up looking at pieces from a classical point of view.

Other thing is that I find most folk stuff is far more technically advanced than the stuff I'm doing in books - such is spiccachio (think this is the right term) wherein you rock the bow back and forth to cover both G and B, without muffling either.

I also find that although I have my Grade 5 music theory (from many moons ago), I have great difficulty in applying it without thinking of another section of tune in which the beats occur and transposing the rhythm.

Oh to be able to go on a violin camp or something!

Of course not. You are just being ridiculous.

1. The first thing is to use your available time well. [Highly inefficient practice includes mindless repetition without prior thought and clear purpose, and frequently playing over entire pieces before the technical problems of short sections have been mastered or the interpretation you want to present has been thought through.]

2. The next is to free up time by finding out where you waste it.

3. If those aren't enough then something in the lifestyle has to change. But IF you have decided that making more time available to practice is essential to you THEN you have to make a realizable plan to get there.

That does not mean simply giving up the job and defaulting on a mortgage. Being broke and homeless is not going to help. Homeless and unemployed people are not going to master a musical instrument. They are too busy finding somewhere to sleep that night where they won't freeze, and begging enough money for the next meal (or mind-numbing drink).

I think you missed (or wilfully ignored) this bit: It may take some time to arrange, possibly years, but they would do it - they would have a plan

My one point is that you can't have it both ways. For the umpteenth time: You can't have more time for practice AND carry on living exactly the same life. There are 168 hours in a week. Every week you occupy yourself doing something for every one of those hours. Where is the extra practice time to come from? Something has to change. And if you are not prepared to make changes (sensibly planned ones note - not the absurd simplified caricature of my position with which you misrepresent me) then it is because you don't want that extra practice time badly enough.


I have no problem with someone deciding that bringing up their children, socializing, or doing their job well is higher up their priorities than spending more time with their music. What I object to is people saying they don't have enough time for all the practice they want to do when what they really mean is that they don't have enough time for that ... and for everything else they would like to do (or feel that they have to do) as well. Well get real - none of us does. That is the hard thing. Making the choices.

Here is my creed. Within the realm of realistic possibility you can probably achieve ANYTHING You want. But you can't achieve EVERYTHING.

I'm with Tom on this.
When people say they have no time for x, it really means they value x less
than other activities in their life.
There's no value judgement in this position.

Then you are both wrong.

The word that is missing from all this hard talk is sacrifice. There are many people who "want, wish, desire, hope" to improve musically and place a very high value on this goal. The fact is that they make sacrifices in their lives in order for somebody else to get the benefit of their time, when they could have been practising if only they were selfish.

You can say this is placing another action higher on the priority list if you like, I don't deny that. But morally it is wrong to accuse them of not wanting hard enough to achieve a musical goal if that is what they do with their time.

I was simply following your argument to it's logical conclusion.

I more or less agree with Tom as well except that I think a lot of the time we don't make conscious choices.

I wrote my doctoral thesis while teaching full-time in a secondary school and during the same period my two daughters were born. When I tell colleagues this they tend to wonder where I found the time but I never consciously planned it all, it just happened like that.

Again it was not a conscious decision but I don't think it was a coincidence that I started having oboe lessons (an instrument I had wanted to play for almost thirty years) the year after I'd finished my thesis when which also happened to be the year I got a job at a university with fewer teaching hours and the year my youngest started full time nursery school, leaving me time at home by myself during the day.

Sorry we are both right

I prefer to judge people by their actions rather than their statements. The person that puts a high value on a goal is the one that does something about it, not the one that simply expresses "want, wish, desire, hope", and then carries on as usual.

I think you'll find that I used the word sacrifice to describe exactly this situation in a previous post. If someone sacrifices their own ambitions for the sake of others that is noble, and may be admirable, but it does not alter the fact that they value the sacrifice and their altruistic act above the pursuit of more selfish goals.

I detect some self contradiction here. You started by saying that we are both wrong. Then you agree with the central point.

Is is not an accusation, and it has nothing to do with morals. It is a statement of fact.


I seem to have touched a raw nerve here (for about the fourth time in 18 months). Perhaps I just just let people go on believing that they are passive victims of circumstance, powerless to shape their own lives?

Ok, wanna have a go at shaping mine? Be my guest

No you weren't. You were making a smart-*** comment in the middle of a serious debate.

No, I wasn't - I was trying to make a point that your argument didn't work when followed to it's logical conclusion.

But that is not the **logical** conclusion of my argument. It is a wilful misrepresentation of it. And the only reasons my limited imagination can think of for you to misrepresent it so absurdly are the desires to make a clever looking comment, or to score a cheap debating point.

Anyway, I'll bow out here, and let the other readers of the thread make up their own minds.

I agree with MadTom, in that if music is really priority number 1, then changing your job / moving house / arranging alternative childcare arrangements etc, to facilitate achieving your musical goals are usually within the realm of possibility for most individuals... think of mature students attending university, who often find themselves faced with these difficult decisions.

I can recall, during my brief training while staffing a counselling helpline, being shown a model which could be used to help clients find a way of delineating their lives. It went something like:

'There are two loci of control:

the inner locus of control - things we can exercise control over (e.g. choice of clothes to wear)
the outer locus of control - things we cannot exercise control over (e.g. the weather)

In planning for the future, or coming to terms with our past, we have to decide - as individuals - in which of these two loci any given set of circumstances lies.'

Or, to put it in more spiritual terms....

'Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference ...'

I still find this a useful way of reminding myself to be realistic about circumstances I am helpless to change (and face them stoically), but more importantly, to face challenges which present themselves with a view to resolving them, rather than taking a defeatist stance. The same applies to learning music as an adult learner. It is all about priorities... and practise...

Here endeth the third lessson......


denmark

What is the logical conclusion of your argument then?
You can't bow out without correcting my "error" surely.

I am not going to dissect all your comments as you have done mine. You are simply giving the impression that you are a completely selfish person that does not care about the welfare of others in achieving your musical goals - I find that hard to believe.

My flute teacher asked me if I could help her run the Woodwind section of the Leamington Spa music festival at the end of June, and I said I would be happy to help her, since she has given me loads of her extra time in lessons and it seemed a kind thing to do. The involvement lasted from 8.15 am to 9.30 pm on both Saturday and Sunday. As a result I was too tired to do any kind of practice those two days, and my target of achievement for the week between lessons was not achieved.

According to you and others this means I don't value the achievement of my target as high as working at the Festival. Well this has nothing to do with what value I place on my musical target. That remains the same. But it has everything to do with giving a commitment to helping someone else and then making a sacrifice in order to stand by that commitment.

It is too simplistic to say that I should simply rearrange my life in order to meet my targets. In this real life example I would have had to default on my offer to help my teacher in order to be selfish, and I am not that kind of person.

And I don't believe you are.

*does a stock-take of musical instruments*

I have *only* gained a violin, two recorders and a clarinet ligature since I joined the forum. Is that good or bad?

I already had a flute, piccolo, second picc headjoint, clarinet, recorders x 4, keyboard and guitar.

An alto flute is top of my wish-list but that doesn't have anything to do with joining the forum - honest.

It is so easy to give the wrong impression when communication is by just the written word.

I have tried very carefully to refrain from telling anyone what they should or should not do. I am just pointing out that we have limited time and it is a matter of personal values and difficult choices what you choose to do with it. I am sorry if that is the impresion that you formed, despite my efforts to avoid it.



If you made a habit of giving up your entire weekend to help others then it definitely would mean that on your personal scale of values being a helpful person was more important thah achieving your musical targets. As an occasional change in routine it means nothing of the kind.


1. But I don't say what you or anyone else should (or should not) do. I certainly do not suggest that we should all selfishly pursue our own goals without consideration for others. I just point out the logic of the situation and the choices that are available. They are not easy choices. I suspect that for most people the end-result of looking hard at their life and their priorities would be that music has to occupy a modest place, and so they will have to accept that they will never be as accomplished as they could be if they developed their gifts to the full.

2. It is not simplistic, but a simple fact that if a person is never able to find enough time to study or practice, and wants to free up more time, then they will have to find that time from somewhere. Something, somewhere has to give. Doing less for other people is just one of many possible ways of freeing up some time.


YOu are right there

That was one of the mantras of the mother of a friend of mine. She was very wise!



I think there's a huge difference in what we all mean by "priorities" - whether some people mean "No 1 priority in life, over and above anything or anyone else", whereas others may mean "No 1 priority as far as leisure time is concerned". I've always been of the opinion that you find time for what you want to do, and to that end, I've given up other leisure interests like calligraphy, picture framing and my health club for the sake of my music activities. But I've recently changed my view on this because I've come to realise that not everybody has personal leisure time, at least not if they want to keep friends and family in their lives and earning a living. It's not always a matter of finding time to do what you *want* to do - sometimes it's a matter of whether or not you've got time left over after what you've *got* to do if your life is not to fall apart, and then whether you've still got the energy to do it.

I can't help thinking that "changing job/moving house" in order to undertake of what for most of us (I think) is a *leisure* activity is unrealistic, on many levels. As for "arranging alternative childcare", not everybody has willing and accessible family members or friends, or the money to pay for childcare. For most of us (I think), music is intended to be a pleasurable enhancement to our lives, not an obsession to the exclusion of all else, driving us relentlessly on to make greater and greater sacrifices of home, job, friends and family.




In spite of what some of your posts have *sounded* like here, I don't believe it either - you wouldn't spend any of your time giving the valuable advice on here that you do give if it were otherwise.

Gosh, in view of some of the heated posts on this thread, I'm starting to regret raising the question in the first place

Mad Tom - I believe I do now get your point, which is one of pure logic and completely correct as such. However, my post was more intended to be one relating to pragmatic challenges faced by adults - ie, in the real world, where family life and at least earning enough money for basics (food, shelter, music lessons...) have to be maintained, it can (in my view) be difficult or impossible at times to find the time to practise. At one level, I agree I have "chosen" to prioritise those things, but I have to say I find it difficult to see how I could realistically have chosen otherwise. As such, I am not certain that they are really "choices"...

(And now I'm going to prioritise my music by using the rest of my lunch-break (the benefits of working from home occasionally!) to put in some extra practice time, rather than spending it discussing these issues further )

That is something on which I agree with you 100% .

OK, you haven't actually said "do this" or "do that" but the conclusions that I draw from your previous posts (which to my impression at least are more forceful than this one) are that if we want to place a high value on musical achievement then we must do certain things as a consequence. (You already posted that it is an IF.....THEN argument). It is easy for me to interpret this as strong advice, but I agree it is falling short of being a command.

I am sorry, I didn't realise you placed a different meaning on short term changes to values, from long term changes to those same values. But surely we are all subjected, to varying degrees, to short term demands on our times caused by changes to our routines due to reasons beyond our control? A lot of such demands may result in quite a loss of practice time over the year, but I am unhappy at the thought that as a result of your advice I would think I was guilty of not putting a high enough value in general on my musical targets. I have started a new instrument at the age when a lot of people are thinking of doing less. I am well aware that the length of time I have for working at it may well be limited by things beyond my control. I have given it a very high priority in my life, but I frequently acknowledge that other things may take an even higher priority. Sometimes I think I am a selfish person for spending so much time with my flute, but your previous posts have saddened me by setting me thinking that I am a weak person for not devoting more of what remains of my life to it, in order to achieve the target I have set myself of learning to play the flute well enough to join a reasonably good amateur orchestra, and to play solo pieces well enough for people to enjoy. I know you will say it is my choice, but whether you intended to or not with your previous posts, you have sown the seeds of doubt in my own mind.

I can't fault your logic when you put it like this.

Well Tom, at least I got something right

Your logic is flawed.

Only if you know when you are doing it right