Sorry bit of a pointless post really but tonight Ive been practicing my pieces and struggling a bit to get a nice sound in places, so I got a bit fed up and decided to get my old violins out. One is an old Amati copy and the other if any of you remember them a Skylark!! which has been sat gathering dust in the attic since I was a little girl My current violin was much much more expensive and does sound much richer and bright.
Ive shocked myself tonight as although the quality of the sound is better with my current violin, I found the other two much easier to play and so much more forgiving.
Any thoughts?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by easier, when you say the new one sounds nicer, but...

Well, violins are all different! They vary in size and weight and set up. And of course one just gets used to ones own violin (please excuse the posh language - I like the word "one" it reduces the ambiguity that can arise from the word "you"). It could just be that you're not used to the new one yet.

My old violin was a monstrous big thing, and I always found my friend's (far superior!) violin hard to play because it was much finer boned and it all felt too compact and light.

My old violin was also badly set up - the bridge was far too high and when I first got it the strings felt like they were slicing the strings like cheesewire - not nice! So the bridge had to come down by about a centimetre! (seriously!). Now I'm sure your violin isn't horribly set up like mine was, but it could be (in a less extreme version of that!) that the strings are a different tension from what you're used to.

Maybe also if the strings are very new and clean you're not getting the grip on the strings you're used to? I always find any time I clean my strings I need to rosin my bow much more often at first!

Sorry, just randomly thinking of things! Sorry for not being more helpful!

Hi
Sorry Ive not been clear. I should say my newest violin (had it months now and is far superior to the others), tone wise, its rich, powerful and bright but the Amati although a bit tinny in comparison seemed easier to play as in more forgiving. I found the difficult passages I was struggling with sounded ok and even the Skylark with its 20 yr old strings didnt scratch and squalk like my new violin did tonight. That sounds terrible doesnt it. I just found that although the quality of the tone wasnt the same, I felt I played better on the other two violins.
It could be down to size as I reckon my new one is slightly bulkier, I call it a mans violin, the Amati is more feminine looking.
I wish I hadnt tried the others now

It's very true that all violins are different, BUT, any well made, well set up violin should be delightfully easy to play, even if its particular voice might not be to your taste.
To be honest, I think players pay far too much attention to tone (may sound strange, but bear with me ). When trying out violins, in my opinion your priorities should be ease of playing, responsiveness, evenness across all strings and in all positions, and the ability to sound well at both ppp and fff. If all this works, then you have a good violin that will enable you to make music at whatever level you choose. Factors like timbre and projection then come into play, and you can select according to your tastes/requirements. But the first selection criterion should be that the violin "works" as described above.
Couple of other points:
i) what a violin sounds like under your ear is only a small part of the picture. You need to hear it played at a distance by someone else.
ii)Play expensive violins at every possible opportunity. The more expensive the better. Go to dealers/auction viewing days and play 5, 6 figure instruments. This will give you a benchmark as to what a good violin should really sound like (hint: they usually aren't "mellow")

PS These are general comments, not necessarily fully relevant to Louby's current predicament.

Just a memory that has popped into my brain and which may sound familiar, louby.

A few years ago, having not played my violin for ages, I had a go on a friend's (very nice!) violin. To my horror I found I could barely play in tune except purely by ear (some rather graceless sliding about on the strings), and felt as if I had entirely forgotten how to play the instrument.

I got my violin out more or less the moment I got home, and found I could play it with some degree of competence even after all that time. In the end, it was just more familiar to me (particularly with its rather idiosyncratic size, which is "wrong" for a full size fiddle) even though my friend's fiddle is worth about twice as much.

Basically, I was used to MY violin... I had owned it at that point for over a decade - and playing another one, no matter how nice, was simply weird, especially when I was so out of practice.

Once I got back into playing a bit I found I could adjust to other instruments a little better, though I was still far more comfy on mine.

But the thing is, the real reason wasn't the quality of the violin, but my familiarity with it. If I am honest, when I first got this violin aged 12 (almost 19 years ago - argh!), it felt pretty weird compared to my old violin, and it took me some time to adjust. But undoubtedly, it's a better violin, and when I got to know it, I was fine.

false harmonic makes a good point that a well set up violin, if you've been used to one that is badly set up! A couple of years back I had my nice familiar fiddle set up properly... and boy, did I struggle for a while! I was used to having to press the strings really hard with my LH fingers, used to a really high bridge and how that (adversely) affected my bowing. Once I'd adjusted, it was so much easier to play, but at the start it was like having a new instrument, and NOT in a fun way...

You'll get to know your new fiddle, and learn to play it well, in time. Don't worry about it

Nooooooooooo, not what I want to hear
I wish Id never played the others now.

Its so true Discopants, my current violin under ear sounds very loud but when played from a distance its so different. It does seem to have all the qualities you mention apart from 'ease of playing' which Ive really only noticed tonight

Im going to try and forget tonight and try again tomorrow. Otherwise if I mention the words 'I need a new violin' I can see a divorce on the cards

Thanks Sarah-Flute, problem is Ive had this 'new' violin probably 6 mths now. . For some reason tonight I thought I'd try my old ones as I was getting frustrated with not playing well.

6 months, in the scheme of things, is not *that* long, seriously.

Talk to your teacher about it, too. It need setting up probably, it could be that it IS set up properly and that is why it feels weird... it could be a point of technique which for some reason your old instruments don't show up... you might need to try a different string because the combination of you with this fiddle doesn't suit somehow... any number of possibilities. I'm sure more experienced players and luthiers would be able to think of other reasons, too.

Hope you get it sorted out... do try not to panic/beat yourself up about it in the meantime!

How does the bridge height/shape compare with your older violins?

Hi thanks for the vote of confidence,
This violin was re set up after I bought it by a respected luthier so the bridge is different to my others. Maybe thats why I find the others easier. He allowed me to try different strings and we settled on Obligato as the violin was kind of loud before.
I cant really speak for the Skylark. Looking at that one, the bridge may infact be on the wrong way round! The things you do when you are young lol. The Amati was set up by someone else, the same person who set up my new violin before it was re set up if that makes sense.
Thanks for all your help.

Sounds like it might (I stress might) be something to do with just not being used to the new set up - especially if your skylark was set up with the bridge the wrong way round! As I said, it took me quite some time to get used to my fiddle - which I'd had for over a decade at that point - when it was newly set up. Same violin I'd been using since I was a child, same set of strings, same bow... and it really threw me. It takes some readjustment! It was also a bit of a nasty shock, as you naturally expect a properly set up violin to be easier to play.

Do talk to your teacher, as s/he may well be able to set your mind at rest, or make any suggestions if there is a problem hope you manage to shed some light on it soon!

I think you should take your violin back to the shop that did the setup and explain the problems you're having. May well just be that the soundpost needs a bit of tweaking after settling in (if responsiveness is the problem), or that the bridge height could be reduced a bit to suit your playing style (if the problem is difficulty pressing down strings).

Sounds like you've had a lot of changes to deal with all at once louby. Have you got a new bow too? A different bow can feel quite alien so maybe try playing your new fiddle with the bow you are familiar with and see if that helps.

The first thing that occurred to me when you said about responsiveness is the strings - I see you've tried a different type of string as well, in case a new fiddle wasn't enough to cope with! There's so much here that's new to you and I know the feeling of going back to an instrument you know and getting the feeling that you've "come home", and how the new one doesn't feel comfortable.

It might also be worth (if you haven't already) using the chinrest you are used to onto your new fiddle - make sure you get the position right though. And obviously that you use the same shoulder rest setup as before. These are all things you could feasibly change to help make you feel more 'at home' while you get used to your new instrument. Of course you can decide to change it all again in a few months, but one thing at a time...

Good luck, and enjoy x

At the risk of sounding like a real wet blanket ....

From my experience as a retailer, it seems to me that an awful lot of people, and adult beginners are by far the worst for this, think along the lines of the better the violin, the better they will play. It isn't true. It may very well be true that the better the violin, the better it can be played by someone, but that someone is unlikely to be you. The player is the limiting factor for a very long time. It seems to me that the tendency is to think "I'm not playing well enough, I need a better violin". Now, you wouldn't do that with a car and (if there are any other people here who like horses) you wouldn't do it with a horse either. If you were a novice rider you would not get onto a racehorse and think you could go for a pleasant hack up a country lane. If you had only just passed your driving test then (unless you were a young man!) you would not get into a formula 1 racing car and drive it to the shops. I find I spend far more time trying to talk people down in terms of the instrument they want to buy than I spend trying to talk them up (there are notable exceptions like the lady whose son's teacher told her he needed a professional violin - which of course he didn't - and she thought she might be able to buy a professional violin for £60)

The problem is made worse by teachers who pick the violin based on what they like rather than on what the student prefers. Teachers should certainly make comments about set up and so on but need to bear in mind that the student is the one who is going to be playing the instrument!

The point when you (not meaning the original poster, but anyone) need a better violin is the point when that violin is limiting you. That means that neither you nor your teacher can get a decent sound out of it in (for example) 10th position on the E string, or that neither of you can get the volume you NEED for your next solo engagement. OK that is maybe an extreme view but you get the point. If you want to spend the money because you have it to spend and you want to spend it on a violin, by all means do, but don't be surprised if a few months down the line you are still disappointed with your progress - serious adult beginners are ALWAYS disappointed with their progress, it's part of the game!

Liz

You've hit the nail on the head there and used analogies that anyone can relate to! On the point about horses, the one thing I learnt as a child was that when you buy a horse, you buy what you are capable of riding now, not what you HOPE to be able to cope with in the future. Overhorsed is the term used, so I wonder if we could call someone 'overviolined'.

Absolutely, which is why I recommend instruments, rather than tell them to buy this or that. I'll happily pick out an instrument(s) I think might suit, but it's up to them as to whether they buy it.

Which pretty much covers what DiscoPants said, that the violin has to 'work'. And yes I agree with DiscoPants, that many top-priced violins don't always sound great under the ear. You will want soloists power and volume for the price your paying, as opposed to something sweet that only has enough carrying power for a small room.

Hey horsey people on here, I have a horse too so know exactly where you are coming from
Anyway thanks for all your replies.
I realise some of the posts are generalised and not aimed directly at me but I dont want anyone to think I bought a better violin to sound better. Maybe Im just being a little paranoid now
My teacher advised it a while back as my old violin was very limiting higher up. Saying that it didnt sound too bad last night lol. Maybe Im getting better eh?
I am a returning adult learner but Im doing Grade 8 so not too much of a beginner just a bit rusty.
Looking back at my post title I realise I should have put, Are some violins harder to play than others and not Why are ..........
Thanks again everyone.

If at grade 8 you are finding an unimproved Skylark (especially if it's with its original bridge, but surely not?) easier to play than your present violin, I would say there is likely to be some major set up issue with your present violin.

It probably depends a bit on what you're playing as well - at grade 8 and diploma level I had to have two different bridge adjustments done on my Poller viola just to make the pieces physically possible, the first involved playing very high up on the D string and the second involved triple stopping.

Liz

Liz, Louby has previously told me by PM who did the setup. A very good guy indeed. I would be extremely surprised if there were any serious issues.

Hi Liz, thanks again for replying
I played the old Skylark out of interest really. The strings are over 20 yrs old, sound terrible and its only out of retirement (been in the loft for 20 yrs) as Im lending it to a complete beginner to have a play with so its here waiting to be dropped off with advice to have new strings etc of course. Yes its the original bridge etc and its truely awful but when I played Lalo Symphonie Espagnole (the more challenging bits) I have to say with decent strings, I dont reckon it would sound too bad. I posted this as after struggling to get a decent sound out of my newest violin on the difficult parts of this piece (as in I sounded scratchy, out of tune and pretty much just bad) I just wondered if some violins regardless of sound were easier to play and more forgiving as I didnt sound as bad on the Amati or Skylark.
As Discopants says, I have complete faith in the person who set it up but obviously couldnt comment on that on here.
I think or should I say hope I was just having a very bad night playing wise.
Thanks again

Is this with the same bow or a different one?

Liz

Its the same bow.
Ive wondered about my bow, I did buy it for my newer violin but its seemed a bit 'lumpy' or gritty (maybe a better word) recently. I was wondering if it was my rosin or whether it may be due re hairing. Its maybe 6 mths old now, its a decent bow. As a learner in my younger days I never ever had a bow rehaired, never knew you had too unless obviously you lost loads of hair. How often should it be done. I have been playing in an orchestra who practice for about 18 hrs a week when theres a concert also about an hour a day normally.
Thanks

Don't know whether to laugh or cry at that one!

I don't really know about violins, but assume it is similar to other instruments. Some student instruments will give pretty much the same sound regardless of how they are played. Better instruments can respond to all sorts of nuances in the playing. If you are playing an instrument which does not respond to all the details of your technique it can feel more forgiving. For this reason it can be good for beginners to have an instrument which will respond to some nuances (so maybe not the pony which will just plod round in the riding school circle regardless of the rider's instructions) but not overly responsive (the race horse). When you upgrade, suddenly all sorts of things which never mattered before do matter; I try to warn students that new instruments can be frustrating as well as a joy!

Hi louby,

If you are playing 18-20 hours a week, I imagine your bow hair is getting to the stage where ideally you might want to get it rehaired any time from now to the end of the year (it will depend partly on how strong the original hair is). That is just my opinion, of course.

You mentioned scratchiness...if the bow hair can't hold rosin any more, that might be one cause.

If it's scratchy all the time, it might be that the bridge or soundpost have moved just a bit, and asking the guy who did the set-up for you to check it would be helpful.

If it's only scratchy in the "hard passages" you mention (rapid fingerwork, string crossing??) maybe your new violin has a higher arch to the bridge (tend to be higher on "better" violins anyway), and you are just not used to the different bow angle needed when crossing strings , and the hard work needed to get the LH fingering done cleanly at speed. Sound persuasive?

Argh! That sounds like hard work.

Violamad, Im glad someone else thinks so, I find it so hard fitting everything in when we have a concert. No one else seems too though

Thanks for your great replies. I think Im going through a 'bad' patch as my lesson tonight was pretty awful. I just cant seem to play at the moment .
All ears, It does seem to be the hard bits that I am more scratchy on and my teacher did look at my bridge last week (now I know why) thanks. She reckons I need to use more bow. I will take my bow in to see if it needs rehairing though.
Erard, thats a great way off putting it, thanks. I know what you mean with the riding school, ie kick on and point in the direction you want to go. Suppose my older violins were play and sound ok, this ones more play much better and sound just about ok!! Saying that when I do play better it does sound great.
I will get there in the end, thanks everyone.

On a horsey note, you'll very often find that, a well schooled horse will only respond if you ask with the correct leg (and sometimes hand) aid. Anything else simply won't give you what you want. In turn, this forces the rider to learn the correct way of asking. Once the rider has become better and can use those corect instructions, the horse will respond to exactly what you are asking of them. When riding a very responsive horse, subtlty is everything, ambiguous or over-exagerated aids from the riders leg will almost certainly leave you out of control.

Similarly, learning the basics of technique on a good student violin that will respond to your needs if asked in the right way, is far better than trying to grapple with an instrument which is so responsive, that ambigouous motions of the hands or bow send it tailspinning out of control.

This is going way off topic, but it reminded me of a horsey group I belonged to as a teenager. The other members were much older and one was really snooty and thought she knew it all. Well, my friend had a nice cob x connemara who was a perfect novice ride type of horse but would respond well to a good rider. This snooty lady decided to ride him, and ignored my friend's instructions that he had been schooled in some foreign way and did not respond to normal aids for canter, you had to use outside leg only as I recall (hey it's been a while since I've ridden). This snooty lady looked down on my very heavy feathery pony and I was SO pleased to hear she had made a total fool of herself on my friend's horse by refusing to use the aids he was used to


Liz

Louby,

I just wanted to post that I found this topic really interesting. I have had a very similar experience to you and have spent a lot of time thinking about, and researching why some violins are easier and more responsive to play than others. I have several violins too, and my main instrument is a lovely warm, dark toned violin that sounds wonderful (on occasions - when I'm playing well!), yet I find it very unforgiving at times. I often have to work REALLY hard to make sure it doesn't squeak and whistle, and any tiny bowing mistake seems amplified. It has been set up professionally and has been played by other really good players who have made the same comments as I have about it.

I also have several other cheaper and more inferior instruments that haven't been set up professionally. I find that they give a more consistent return when playing, and even on my bad days I can get away without the whistling etc. They seem to offer little resistance, and are therefore easier to play. However, when I'm having a really good day and playing well, there seems to be a ceiling on the sound and tonal qualities of the instruments.

I was once told that soloists often go for the harder-to-play instruments as (unlike me!) they have the ability to play them well, and they are rewarded with the richest of tone and subtleties in the character of the instrument.

It seems, the harder you are forced to play, the more powerful the result (possibly!).

NellieVic.

Thank god Im not alone
When I was in the process of buying my newest violin I loved the quality of sound it made but did feel it was maybe somehow harder to produce this sound consistently. I tried a much more expensive violin that I loved the looks of, history and sound in the higher registrys but it just didnt compare lower down. It was however very easy to play. I was in the shop with both violins and a professional player came in and played both violins for me, she liked the dearer one but asked before she played them what my problem was. She didnt think my violin was harder to play and didnt know what I meant so maybe the fact that she was a much better player than me meant that my violin shows my shortfalls????
Im glad I picked mine as although I do struggle sometimes, it does have a wonderful warm deep tone that when played well sounds lovely.
One day maybe