Hi all,
am playing sevcik exercises, mainly op1 p1 numbers 1, 5 and 10 at the moment.

in these exercises often it tells you have HAVE to keep your fingers down in place as you play the next notes, example:

on A string, play C natural with your first finger down and second low finger down, then keep these 2 fingers down and play D natural with 3rd finger, then lift 3rd finger and play C natural (keeping 1st and 2nd low finger down) then play E with your 4th finger whilst still keeping down 1st and 2nd low finger.

I find things like the above quite difficult, not so much in finding the notes and having good intonation, my intonation is 'spot on', is keeping the 1st and 2nd low finger down whilst playing the 4th as well....

My teacher asked me to play this first 4 times slowly paying good attention to intonation, checking with open string etc, then play it 4 more times at double the speed then double the speed again and play 8 times.

By the time I get to a 'fast speed' and doing the 8 times one my hand has got LOADS of tension in it and so do my fingers, my thumb is squeezing the life out of my violin neck!!! when I finish the exercise I have to shake my fingers/hand loosely to relieve the tension built up in them

My question is:

-will this just correct itself with time, the more I play them the more I will get used to them and the less tension I will build up

OR

-as I build up loads of tension, shall I just then play these bars VERY SLOWLY and if I feel any tension building up slow it down even more? what I mean is: shall I NOT allow the tension to build up at all???

thank you for any answers

Jo

(my teacher is away for FOUR WHOLE WEEKS now!!! )

Hi, I used these exercises when I started (still do but not all the time) and had the same problems. I don't think they should be practiced for long periods; the main focus is on playing with precision, very slowly, for a short part of your whole practice time.
I would definitely not try to speed up until you have broken down exactly what the exercise entails and can do it really slowly, even leaving deliberate gaps between notes while you think about what is going to happen next. When tension builds up it sometimes helps to think about 'doing less' with the tense hand, and also relaxing the right hand, if that makes sense.
Those are just my thoughts based on how I was taught those exercises; a teacher would probably have more useful advice.
N

Thank you Nova,
I do these slowly to begin with so that I am sure I have the right intonation, fingers exactly where they are supposed to be, I don't have a problem in understanding where my fingers go or what I should get out of the exercise and can do these very accurately at high speed too (I build up my speed from slow to fast) BUT I get terrible tension in my hand not with all of the exercises, mainly the ones where you have big gaps between fingers and have to keep all fingers down like the example I brought up.
So, yes, was wondering if I should just do them slow despite me being able to do them fast, shall I 'ignore' the tension and play fast and one day it will go or shall I play slow, build up and if I feel any tension slow back down again?
thanks

I don't think that playing with tension is ever good. I've had a lot of problems with tension, and it always leads to a bad sound in the end. I am really a beginner myself, so hesitate to say anything too dogmatically, but I haven't yet found a way around it except stopping and consciously trying to do less before playing on. You are probably right to be building up and slowing down if tense.
N

Hi Jo,

Make sure the side of your 1st finger is not resting against the neck of the violin while you play these exercises as you will end up squeezing the neck between 1st finger and thumb if you are not careful and causing tension.
Also, sometimes tension is started further down the arm/elbow/forearm/wrist/base of thumb, or shoulder, so check all these points when playing the exercise slowly, make sure they feel nice and loose and then stay that way as you speed up.
I think somewhere in the preface it says about hand position for these exercises but mine has fallen down the back of the piano..while teacher's away the spiders can play with it...

Miffy

good pointer about checking the side of my 1st finger, will do tomorrow, today am skipping my practice as I am 'bereaving' as had to give away 2 of my cats due to having to move home and lots of other problems.
feel too depressed to play today but yeah, will check on this tomorrow

These exercises are all about learning to form a fundamental hand shape that, in the long term, will allow complete independence of each finger and accurate intonation across the strings. However, while a fundamental hand shape is essential and should indeed be kept, even when fingers are not directly in use or even on the fingerboard, what fingers you can literally keep down (all at the same time) will depend on very much on hand size and finger length.

As a small-handed person myself and with a short little finger to boot, I find it incredibly difficult to keep a 2nd finger on C natural while playing a 4th finger E. I simply have to lift the finger from the fingerboard, or let it slide forward a little. I am fortunate in that I have been playing for long enough (or rather, more years than I care to remember!) to know exactly where the C natural is when I release the 4th finger from the E, thereby still playing the C in tune.

I would advise all small-handed people to bring their thumb forwards slightly under the instrument neck, ie. placing it so that it is positioned approximately level with your second finger, rather than the first. This will increase the stretch of the hand without causing undue tension. Don't let the thumb tip back towards the scroll, this shortens the stretch of the hand and causes a squeezing action between the thumb and the violin neck. Additionally, any tendency to 'frying pan hold' the violin neck also encourages squeezing and shortens hand span.

As I first mentioned, the ultimate goal of these exercises is to develop hand shape and finger independence, allowing fingers to step across strings and to be placed with accuracy to achieve notes elsewhere, without the fear of them being wildly out of place. It takes time and practice, but stick with it, they do pay off in the long run.

What lovely advice, thank you Amanda!
I don't know if I have small hands/short fingers, I would assume I don't as in my profession I wear medium sized gloves whilst many of my midwifery colleagues wear small, but still I could have 'chunky' hands with short fingers? mmmm, if there was a measurement which tells you ' you have short fingers' then I could measure them and let you know
I will indeed pay attention to what Miffy said (about first finger touching neck at the side) and will watch out for my thumb being opposite second finger as you said.
I will watch out for these things and see if I still develop tension/hard grip, if this still happens then maybe I have to lift my second finger or let it slide a bit (it tends to want to do this at present! but I have to check these things mentioned first).

I now know why my teacher 'prescribed' these exercises (now that you explained what they are for!), he has commented on a couple of occasions that my hand shape is much better overall lately

I love doing the exercises, I could never get bored of them so I shall 'stick with it' no problem

The most important thing to remember in this issue is that you should set your hand position by where your 4th finger drops, not your 1st finger. So instead of reaching forward to your 2nd/3rd/4th, you are reaching backward for your 3rd/2nd/1st. I reckon that will solve a lot of intonation and tension problems for you. It took years for me to fully understand that but for my tiny (but fortunately flexible) hands it made a world of difference, especially as my 4th finger is disproportionately small. I never stood a chance of playing scales in 3rds and 10ths until I realised that the 4th finger sets the hand, and to be honest my intonation was always fairly poor too. Now those are my strengths, just from figuring out this one huge problem!

One other thing - remember that the tension in the fingers should be felt when the fingers are up. When they rop onto the fingerboard, that's the release of tension. Hence why in Schradieck/Sevcik exercises, keeping all lower fingers down when possible is often advocated.

Sorry bohemian, but am not sure I understand what you are trying to explain to me
Do you mean I should put my 4th finger down first then the second then the first? rather than placing 1st then second then fourth?

When I do the exercise I mentioned, I keep first and second fingers down (as advocated by book) and have to put 4th down, when all the fingers are down that's when I feel the most tension (I think anyway, will confirm later today after my daily practice).

Sorry, it's hard to explain. Just try putting your 4th finger down in place first, and then your 3rd, then 2nd then 1st. I think it might feel a lot less tense to you than how most people play which is the opposite way round. What I mean is that the feeling you get when you put your fingers down in that order is what you should try to always have, regardless of what notes you are playing. Because of course if you put your 4th finger down first, there is no tension there (problem solved) and very little will be put into the 1st finger (which technically should now be under most tension if you think about it) because the 1st finger is more adaptable due to it being longer and more flexible than the 4th finger. Is that making any sense now?

that's making perfect sense now, thanks
but should I do this just as an 'exercise' to see where the tension comes from? as of course when playing pieces or the sevcik exercises I cannot do this as the order of the notes has to be followed
(you're being really patient with me, if a stone comes flying my way I'll understand )

Do it as an exercise frequently (as soon as you feel tension, I think, for now, and at the start of a practice). But you should always always have that feeling in your hand regardless of what finger pattern you're playing. So if you play 1, 2, 3, 4, you're still reaching back to the first and the 4th finger is "neutral". Of course for now it will be easier when you're playing decending patterns or a pattern that begins with a 4th finger, and it will take a long time to become automatic, but it's such a great headstart if you can already begin to train a correct hand position with this concept of a neutral 4th finger and backward reaches to the others.

that's very interesting, thank you for sharing that with me, I'll keep that in mind

Sorry to butt in on this thread, but I wanted to say thanks for posting this because its been a bit of a revelation to me. My tiny little fingers have big problems stretching to 4th finger too and this has been really helpful in my afternoon practice. Thanks


"As a small-handed person myself and with a short little finger to boot, I find it incredibly difficult to keep a 2nd finger on C natural while playing a 4th finger E. I simply have to lift the finger from the fingerboard, or let it slide forward a little. I am fortunate in that I have been playing for long enough (or rather, more years than I care to remember!) to know exactly where the C natural is when I release the 4th finger from the E, thereby still playing the C in tune.

I would advise all small-handed people to bring their thumb forwards slightly under the instrument neck, ie. placing it so that it is positioned approximately level with your second finger, rather than the first. This will increase the stretch of the hand without causing undue tension. Don't let the thumb tip back towards the scroll, this shortens the stretch of the hand and causes a squeezing action between the thumb and the violin neck. Additionally, any tendency to 'frying pan hold' the violin neck also encourages squeezing and shortens hand span."

Excellent! am glad my original question raised a conversation which ultimately 'served a wider audience'
thank you once again to all the contributors

Just like to re-inforce, that yes you should balance hand on 4th finger, i also do sevcik exercises, and this is explained in some detail about balance of the hand and is even more complicated than this --- can't remember which book! Also, no there should not be tension in the hand, if there is, then you are doing somethink wrong. Also, the exercises are not about speed as i believe.

sorry to hear about your cats!!

Thanks Debra, am about to start my daily practice now (usually do 6:30 to 7:30 on violin, 8:30 to 9:15 on Double bass), will post later or tomorrow about any news on my sevcik exercises

This has been a great thread, I just learned several things I had no idea of - thanks for jojo for starting it, and Amanda and Bo for contributing so usefully!

I have paid attention during my practice, my main problem as stated is when I play a low second finger and a fourth finger, the exercise and my teacher tell me to keep 1st and second finger DOWN whilst I play my fourth finger.

Paying attention to points raised:

is my overall posture good? yes it is
is the side of my first finger touching the violin neck? I made sure it wasn't
is my thumb more in line with second finger rather than forward near first finger? made sure thumb was opposite 2nd finger.
tried also to place 4th finger first and 'accomodate' second then first finger to this hand position.

Overall it was much better, a lot less tension than before, BUT still tension and mainly from base of my fourth finger running down to my wrist and a little of my forearm.

the only way to completely eliminate the tension was to either lift or slide slightly the second finger.

I will mention this to my teacher when he gets back from summer break in a months time

thank you everyone

Great comments from everyone on this thread. Tension always seems to be such an issue with string instruments! I would advise on top of everything else already said that perhaps you should bring your left elbow around to the right a bit more as well. Sometimes, without realising it, your elbow may have dropped to the left further than it should have, thus giving your left hand fingers less space to work with.

I've been playing violin for years and I still struggle with tension. Sometimes I think it is all a mind thing! You always have to be thinking about a loose, light thumb. That is one of the main things you have to set your mind on when playing anything that causes tension! Hope that is of help to you!

AND...
Bringing your thumb more under the neck of the violin may help give you a little more immediate flexibility.