This thread is for all those flute players who have upgraded from one flute to a "better" (that would be "more expensive") one.

What did you find that was better on the new flute? Was there anything that you found easier to do on the new one? Or indeed, was there anything you found impossible with the old one that you can now do on the new one?

As you can guess, I am getting a new flute and I just wondered if there was anything tangible that I can look forward to (with appropriate hard practice of course, I am not expecting that an easy solution to any problems will come by throwing money at them ). I just wanted to hear of practical experience which I can put with the marketing pitch that I am expecting will come from the salesperson.

I found the upper register much easier to play. Conversely, I often can't get bottom C.
The whole thing felt lighter and easier to play.
Bev

Instant effects were the noticably better tone, and that the foot didn't constantly drop off the new one!

Quickly noticable effect: I had been using recorder fingerings on my old flute in certain pieces without ever noticing. My new flute wasn't so ammenable to these alternative fingerings, and I soon stopped using them. Playing the recorder a lot less also helped.

I upgraded 25 yrs ago from a German silver flute to a full silver head and body flute. It was way beyond anything I could do before. Although I still have difficulties with the 3rd octave (which is my fault in this case) at least, this flute is able to actually do it! The sound is much much nicer than the old one. And I was through with both German silver flutes (completely wore out the mechanics) after a year! My good one (which lay in the closet about 20 yrs) is still in perfect order and only needs a regular flute inspection and once in a while an overhaul.

Although this is quite a nice flute, I now reach a level where I am actually looking around for what I would very losely call an upgrade. I am actually in search of another flute similar to mine. Mine is getting so much working hours a year, it would be a good thing to be able to switch between flutes and to have a spare that something can go wrong with the other in front of an exam or a concert, not to mention the time it is away in inspection or overhaul. I just would not like to stop playing just because my flute is gone for some time. Oh, and I wouldn't mind if the flute would sound a bit different. Maybe a warmer tone. Mine is very very crispy clear. So it would be nice to have another tone temperature.

And I find myself looking for other options as well. I bought myself an antique Boehm flute made from african blackwood which I currently restore. The sound of wood actually is absolutely amazing. I know, Boehm considered wooden flutes to sound, well, wooden. But I think that was just because in his time, his invention of the silver flute was new and the sound of the wooden one, the one you heard everywhere. He did not know how to appreciate that sound anymore. I do!

And just for the fun of it, I bought myself an antique Meyer system flute made from ebony and ivory. I have nearly finished the overhaul. I think it takes me another two months to complete it. But it is a perfect flute for playing Klezmer. Although I have to admit, I am quite frightend of the different fingerings. And I am not yet sure if my hands are actually large enough. But I think it would be fun to play it.

I have upgraded twice, with one downgrade in between the two upgrades.

My first flute was a very old Boosey and Hawkes, which simply got to the point where it was basically unplayable if a reasonably standard technique was used. I could still play it, because I was used to the flute - but my then teacher could barely get a note out of the intstrument. I was preparing grade 8 at the time (although I couldn't afford to actually take the exam) and the instrument simply wasn't up to it. I was having lessons through the local university at the time (although I was still at school) and my teacher arranged for me to have an absolutely gorgeous Pearl 881 on loan from the department's instrument bank. The big differences were in tone quality and in ease of playing - the flute just sang without me really doing anything.

I obviously had to return this flute when I had my big confidence crash and quit playing, so I had a while when I had no flute at all. I started to miss the flute and after a while I started saving up. Eventually I bought a Pearl 661, which was nowhere near as good as the 881 I'd had on loan - but it was the best I could afford (I'd spent a couple of years saving before I could even get that) and it was marginally better for me than the Yamaha 311 which was the other option available.

I upgraded last summer when my teacher felt that my Pearl was seriously limiting my playing. The pearl had a nice rich basic tone, and would have still been very good for a grade 5-6-(7)ish player who was trying to develop a solid tone. However, the flute wasn't capable of the range of colouring and expression I was then wanting. In particular, it did not do 'bright' at all - even when played by my teacher who is a professional player. My teacher had also made a number of significant changes to my technique with the result that the flute simply did not suit me anymore.

The improvements I initally noticed with my new flute (a Sankyo) were a sweeter top octave, nice rich bottom octave and improved dynamic control. One thing I really struggled with though was that some of the notes were in a very different place embouchure-wise compared to my old flute, and I have had to unlearn the positioning of these notes and then re-learn them. The flute I now play is more resistant than a lot of the other flutes I tried, and some people struggle who have tried it seem to really struggle with this, but the flute suits me well.

With the shop your going to, gedall, you don't need to worry about the marketing pitch. They will be interested in you finding the right flute for YOU - not in you buying what's most expensive or what happens to be the salesperson's favourite. It's not like going to a local non-specialist music shop where they will try to sell you a yamaha because that's what they've always been told is the 'best' flute - yamaha's are very good for some players, but (as with any make or model) they aren't best for everyone.

Try lots of different flutes. If your hand position is good enough for open holes (I didn't look closely enough at Leeds to be able to advise on this) it's worth trying both the open hole and closed hole versions of each model because they do play differently. I personally found that on most flutes I prefered the open hole versions and a couple I preferred the closed hole. If you need plugs in the holes on an open hole flute, then don't get it. They often change how the flute plays (tuning, resitance and responsiveness), and there are a lot of people who buy open hole flutes with the intention of taking the plugs out later but never get to the point where they can do so.

Some flutes you'll probably reject after a few notes (the Powell singature was in this category for me - but is a great flute for some people), and some you'll like a lot. Once you've narrowed your choice down (probably to around 5-8 flutes) try them out more thoroughly. Test the flute across its full range. Use different dynamics and different articulation and see how the flutes respond. Try some contrasting pieces which you know well. The Faure Sicilienne you did at Leeds might be good as a lyrical piece. Also include one with faster passages and more tounging (and mixed articulation fast passages would be ideal). If you have one, try a more angular/contemporary piece as well, and a baroque one. You may just want to use extracts from each piece to check the specific aspects - otherwise your embouchure will tire before you're done.

Take your favourites on trial and see how they behave in the rooms where you normally play. I had three flutes which I really liked (a closed hole Miyazawa, open hole Powell 2100 - these only come with open holes - and an open hole Sankyo). The shop would only let me take two on trial, and I eventually went for the Miyazawa and Powell because, in the shops practice room, the Sankyo was on the verge of being too thick on the lowest notes (and the closed hole version was even more so). However, when I got home I found that the Miyazawa sounded a lot thinner in the rooms I usually used, and wasn't as repsonsive as it had been in the acoustically superior shop practice room. Luckily the shop agreed to then send the Sankyo for me too try.

*reads thread with interest*

gedall, may I ask what you're upgrading from and what you're upgrading to? As, in my experience, you will find different up and downsides depending on where you are at.

Just to add my experiences to the helpful ones you've already had

My first upgrade was from a Yamaha 211N to a 3-something (I forget exactly!) with a solid silver headjoint and a silver plated body.

As I was going from a workhorse but fairly crappy flute to one that was actually pretty decent, more or less everything was easier! Better keywork, which makes the technical side of things easier, easier to get a decent sound and to produce some variation in that sound, less clicks and clanks as I played, no eczema on my bottom lip from the nickel flute... just a different world!

My second, and thus far last, upgrade, was when my nicer Yamaha was stolen. I moved to a Pearl 765, which is solid silver, with the Pearl "pinless mechanism", silver plated keywork. It's a step up from the Yamaha but not a huge one. I found the mechanism superior, the higher notes more responsive, and the basic tone of the instrument simply nicer. I don't remember if it was easier to get a nice tone or not, but I do remember that it suited my playing better than the Yamaha had. I do think it is more difficult to achieve a bright tone than the Yammy, but easier (for me at least! ) to achieve a range of tones.

I'm yet to upgrade from the Pearl because I can't afford it, but as and when I do I'd not be looking any more for what was easy to play, but for flexibility and what suits me. I've played a few friends' flutes who have handmade headjoints, and been astounded, not always at the ease of playing (though sometimes that too) but with what a huge difference they make to the responsiveness of the instrument. I also remember playing a student's Altus and being gobsmacked at how sweetly it played right up into the gods!

If you're moving up from a basic, beginner flute, it's a bit like starting with a Lada (or maybe not quite that bad, depending on the flute!) and moving on to a decent, reliable car which you can trust to get you from A-B at any given time and which won't break down on you.

Moving up to the reaches of "flutes which suit" seems to me more like having a decent, reliable car like a Ford or something, and then driving something more flashy, more maneouvrable, and more fun to drive, but also something which requires a bit more skill on the part of the driver in order to control it. Also, unlike Lada-flute vs Ford-flute, where the choice is a no-brainer, if you're comparing Ferrari-flute with Maserati-flute, the end decision will be a much more personal thing.

You might actually find that certain things are easier on your new flute, you might also find that other things are more difficult. If you can get advice from your teacher and/or take your teacher with you, having an independent pair of ears around the place (not to mention someone who knows your playing) would be well worth it!

Good luck, and have fun flute shopping

I thought you might.

Thank you for all the helpful words and comments . I am going tomorrow to meet up with Barry-clari so I will have someone with me who has heard me play already, and who knows more than a bit about choosing flutes . The shop is All Flutes Plus, and they will let me bring back up to three models, which on Wednesday I will play to my teacher, so with Barry's help it looks like I have set up the ideal arrangement for making a purchase. (I would like to add that Flossie also offered to help, but unfortunately my travel dates don't coincide with hers, so Barry has kindly stepped in - I think he ought to win an award for being the most helpful person on the Forum..... ). My teacher has told me to take several pieces of music with me, from the current (difficult!) Grade 6 pieces and going back to pieces which I find easier to play.

Regarding the current flute Sarah, it is an Evette by Buffet Crampon - it was £180 new so can't be too good can it? But the shop have told me that it will do me up to Grade 5/6 so I pointed out that I am now working on 6 and their advice was to go for a good Intermediate flute. So my understanding is that means solid silver headjoint, and possibly body, with closed or open hole depending on how I take to the latter. My budget is £1500 max and hopefully will cover your Pearl 765, which seems to have given you the sort of thing I might be looking for myself. I did try Bev's open hole Altus but I couldn't get bottom C either . But then I couldn't on Flossie's so that is for tomorrow to sort out.

Babybird, this is an important step for both of us, so I hope you also find this thread helpful. I will ask the shop if we can have a discount for two flutes shared between us!!

A good intermediate flute is sort of what I'd guessed: A nice reliable car, if you will *grin*

My experience of Buffet flutes, I have to say, suggests strongly that you will find your Ford or Renault type flute to be a significant improvement I have not played on dozens of Buffet flutes, but while their clarinets are generally considered pretty good, their flutes usually seem to be a bit lacking.

£1500 should leave you with a reasonably good choice. Hope that it's a lot of fun and that you find just the flute you need Barry will be an excellent help, I'm sure!

Good luck! I'm really excited for you!

Yep, you should find an intermediate flute easier to play in lots of ways. Have fun choosing.

Good luck with it. How exiting! And tha's a decent amount of money to get something really nice.

I'm already getting a discount

Barry and Gerald are running amok in London as we type. I expect they'll be on the news later. Barry's been singing again, and Gerald has not behaved himself

Next time I go to All Flutes Plus I'll deny all knowledge of them. Or were they trying them out by busking in the Underground? (A sort-of cut price Belle Epoque ?)

How did you get on? What was it like? What have you brought back with you to try? What did you think? Did you really use the flute and some Midget Gems as a pea-shooter to attack the Tube ticket-sellers at Warren St. station?

Don't know all the info Andante, only what they've texted, but I bet it was bad.

Must have been VERY bad.

I can't deny all knowledge of b-c the next time I go to AFP - he's coming with me. I'm looking for an alto flute and am going to try some out when I take my flute down for it's one year service - I can't afford to buy an alto flute, though, until they sell my old concert flute.

BB2 is going flute shopping on Saturday as well, so they're going to see a lot of Barry.

Having met both gedall40 and BB2 and knowing how they play and what their current flutes are like it's going to be interesting to see what flutes they end up with. I have an idea of what I expect they may like, and it will be interesting to see how right or wrong I am.

So bad indeed that the police had separated them and put Gerald on the train home. Barry ran off manically laughing with his flute on loud

*wonders what Barry and Gerald are going to say when they read this thread*

What indeed. Whatever it is, they are making it up

Last I heard, gedall took away 3 flutes on approval. I won't tell you which ones though, to keep you all in suspense....

Barry's been singing again? Blimey. I gotta go flute shopping with him on Saturday. Should I pretend that I don't know him?

A wise strategy.

This is quite disgraceful! . This is supposed to be a serious thread and now look what has happened to it. Who started all the fun and jokes then....let me check back and see.....oh yes, I might have known from the text which said something like "I am spreading terrible rumours about you and Barry on the forum".

Well it has been an excellent day, and as I am just a bit tired from the travelling and playing for over two hours to Barry (who had to listen for over two hours to me ) I will post again tomorrow.

Watch this space.....

I'm watching, but nothing's happening!! Which flutes made it to your shortlist?

This is not fair - here is what really happened.

We arrived and were shown down to the big room underground, that reaches out under the pavement with glass window things in the ceiling. I was brought 6 flutes, all notionally within my budget, and we set about trying them out. After I had played on and off for something like an hour and a quarter, Barry suggested I stopped and took a rest, which sounded like a good idea.

In the room is a very nice piano, so I suggested to Barry that I would play for him while he practised his singing. So we did several nice quiet numbers, and I must say that Barry sings really nicely. Somehow we got onto the subject of singing at Anglesey, and I jokingly suggested that he might sing 100 Green Bottles like he did in the back of Petrat's Land Rover. We had only got down to about 83 bottles still hanging on the wall when the door opened and two very attractive young ladies came in to see what we were doing. They were trying flutes out in another room, but very soon they were joining in with our Green Bottles song and standing very decorously by the piano. Soon several other customers had come to see what we were all doing and laughed when they realised, but stayed to help us get the number of bottles down to None.

We were up to about 9 or 10 people when one of them, a handsome Australian chap by the name of Shane, said that he had just come in from shopping and had some cans of beer in his shopping bag! . So these were opened and passed around and before long we had a real old-fashioned cockney knees-up in full swing! . By this time we had finished all the green bottles, and I was playing a selection of popular songs and everyone was singing at the tops of their voices. We sang "Daisy, Daisy" in honour of DaisyChain, then "My Old Man Said Follow the Van" in honour of The Old Lady, and also Hoagy Carmichael's "Skylark" (not difficult that one, is it? .) Unfortunately for us, two policemen happened to pass by on the pavement upstairs and heard what they later described as "a bit of a shindig" and came in to ask the manager what was going on. He, poor chap, said that he knew some of his customers were having a bit of a sing-song, but he didn't like to interrupt because he knew that one of them was a millionaire and about to buy three of his most expensive flutes (one for use, one as spare, and one away for service). The policemen said that it had to stop as by now there was a crowd forming in the street and they were joining in and dancing to our music, so they came down the stairs to sort us out. To say that they were put out is a bit of an understatement . One of them turned to the manager and said that not only did he not have a licence for singing and dancing, but he was guilty of allowing alcoholic beverages to be consumed on the premises and it had to stop immediately.

So reluctantly all the customers returned to their rehearsal rooms and Barry and I finished our selection of flutes. Except that we actually got it down to just the one flute. Now, I don't know if it was the beer or not, but I came up with this brilliant idea. I said to Barry that if he went upstairs and chattered excitedly to the manager and told him that I had been unable to find the right one today, I would pack it in my briefcase and nonchalantly stroll out of the door with it! Well it seemed to be working, because nobody stopped me from leaving. But as I passed the window, I looked inside to see if Barry was following me.....I think the manager must have been some kind of wrestler because he had Barry in a kind of arm and headlock that made Barry's head turn in a different direction from his body, and it looked a bit painful. The manager was shouting something at me, but although I didn't catch all the words, I got the message that if I didn't go back in and return whatever was in my briefcase, he would hold Barry captive until I did.

For a split second, I toyed with the idea of legging it down Warren Street towards King's Cross where I would disappear into the crowds. Well anybody would, wouldn't they? The shop did not have my name and address, and Barry didn't either. It also seemed like a good idea, because Saturday Babybird2 would be going to the shop and Barry would already be there, without having to spend money on more train tickets. But then I though Naah, it's not fair on poor Barry - he hasn't had any lunch yet, and from the look on the face of the manager he wasn't likely to get any there. So I sighed and reluctantly went back in whereupon I was told to open my briefcase immediately.

I did this and guess what? The flute in the briefcase was my own old one Laugh?? I nearly bought my own beer . I had been using my own as a comparison and somehow between us Barry and I had managed to identify it as the best one for me . Still, all's well that ends well.

Though Barry probably has a bit of a stiff neck this morning.

Oh no!! . I have just had my shave, shower and breakfast, come to log on and answer your questions only to find that my twin brother Gerry has been using my computer again. I am really sorry about this, he has been told repeatedly that he is only allowed to post in the Forum Café. .

So here, in no particular order, are the three flutes that made it to the final round:

• Altus 807
• Miyazawa PB-102
• Trevor James Recital I - R452

I know nothing about flute model numbers, so in that sense I was trying them out "blind" but it just so happens that all three cost the same, and that figure is just marginally outside my top limit!!

I have to say that when I started checking the first six out, I would have been extremely happy to own any one of them, but Barry was able to help detect minor problems, such as slower response to high or low notes, which meant they were put to one side. It does reinforce the good advice that those that know give --- take someone else with you, play lots, don't assume that a flute which suits someone else will be the best one for you. I can't now remember which models were rejected, but I think two of them were Pearl flutes. Excellent makes, but with my technique did not score as highly as these three.

So the next step is this morning's lesson with Anna Gallan, my flute teacher, and hopefully one will emerge as the winner.

More anon. This is really exciting!

Shall we run a book on which flute Gerald will choose.
20/1 Miya.
15/1 James
10/1 Altus.

I'll have £100 on the Miyazawa.

So will I

Great day yesterday gedall40 : thoroughly enjoyed it. And the 100 green bottles.

Here is the latest news.

Following an intensive testing with my teacher, we have decided to send back the Trevor James. The other two put up a good fight and have scored the same number of points. I have the final decision to make, so further testing will take place.

Incidentally, for test pieces, the one which has been used the most is Les Cygnes by Busser, which I tended to focus on yesterday and which my teacher used this morning. It has a lot of tricky parts - high A G# and F#, run down to bottom D, fast octave jumps and of course the dreaded top E/F# trill which I have posted about elsewhere. Both the Altus and Miyazawa have given me some confidence that with either of them, I might actually pass with this piece of music and Anna said how much improved it was compared with last week's lesson

Now I want to try out lots of different other types of music with them. Is the bookmaker going to change the odds then .

I had a feeling you'd send that flute back... Do keep us updated!

Send back all the good ones so I can try them

I am not surprised - you have insider information . Have you been texting details to any others....

Thanks to you, Barry, it was a most enjoyable experience. On the train going down I was a bit nervous not only about the whole process and whether or not I would be able to make a sensible decision, but also actually playing in front of yourself for quite a length of time and you being there specifically to make judgements on my playing. But I have to say you put me completely into a calm mode as soon as we started, so many thanks for that as well as your great help in flushing out the finer points of the different flutes.

It was a good sing-song wasn't it?

Barry is great to play to. No need to be nervous, ever

I know which one my virtual money is on - but I'm not going to say until gedall has made his decision.

gedall - with the two you still have in the running, think careful about how well they do/don't do different tone colours and how easily you can create different emotions with them. The Busser has done a good job of showing up ease of playing on some of the more difficult notes, but it doesn't cover a huge range in terms of tone colour, emotion and expression.

What are they like for fast articulation? How flexible are they for jumping between larger intervals at speed and with good clarity of sound and accurate intonation (try the TW arpegs if you have them)? Can they capture the feel that's needed for baroque music - which is very different soundwise to the Busser?

This all sounds so.... technical

OK I will do that, but I will of course be keeping the very best one for myself, won't I . Nothing personal, you understand . I fully support that.

You can sing, can't you?......... . We don't want the manager to be disappointed when you and Barry go on Saturday.

Sing? oooh I don't know about that

Oh dear. Does that mean it's unintelligible.

It's not unintelligible

I just meant there's a lot to think about

That's very good advice, Flossie, and yesterday I did include playing the Loeillet duet piece for the Leamington Festival as a good example of repetitive tonguing. This helped get down from 4 to three, and all three remaining passed that test well. I also used Bennett's Siesta as an example of low and mid-register playing which needs careful tone control, and again the ones I brought back passed that test OK.

I may as well finish this treatise on what we did . Barry asked me to play some stand-alone top register F# and G# on each flute, and then some bottom Cs. I have found from personal experience that getting bottom C is slightly easier if playing down to it than hitting it first go, which is what is required in Siesta. (By the way, andante, I didn't play it wearing a floppy sun hat and reclining in a deck chair ). Then as I was worried about my C# pitch, I played several slow B - C - C# - D runs and back again while Barry stood with his eyes shut - that also helped to eliminate some of the flutes. Barry also had me doing a scale up two octaves from G and going down to bottom C. Today my teacher had me playing chromatic scales starting on bottom D, and C major playing all the way from bottom to top and back. I am not really up to top C yet, but the remaining two sounded it quite reasonably, though not perfectly yet.
Also with the last three I played bits of the Poulenc sonata, slow movement. I have already learned to play the notes in the right order, but have never ever been satisfied with the sound - just not beautiful enough to do the piece justice. But I could hear an immediate improvement in exactly the area you are mentioning - tone control.

You've not been on the pointy end of his 'look' then?

Bets in then.

Miyazawa 10/1
Altus 8/1

Doesn't one "feel" easier than the other to play?

"Feel"?? . Don't you just blow in one end and press all the buttons .

Or am I missing something about flute playing?

Can I place any bets?

[quote name='gedall40' date='Jul 22 2009, 03:47 PM' post='854717']
[/quote] "Feel"?? . Don't you just blow in one end and press all the buttons .

Or am I missing something about flute playing?

Can I place any bets?
[/quote]

NO you can't place bets. As for blowing one end and pushing buttons, I wish it was that easy.

Hmm. I don't think I really made myself clear before. I'm not just talking about having a 'good' tone, as your tone is likely to be better than on your old flute, or about ease of playing.

What I was trying to get at is the issue of tone colour and emotion - which is the next stage on from what you sound like you've been doing.

What are you and each of the two flutes like when it comes to creating different moods and emotions? Can you create the following moods/emotions with each flute: happy, cheerful, playful, joking, lazy, indulgant, peaceful, reflective, pensive, prayerful, cold, frozen, eerie, melancholy, sad, agitated, frenetic, angry, timid, hurt? Some of these are similar to each other, but can you portray a difference between them? Can you make the flute laugh and cry?

I can make other people cry when I play it

This sounds hard