Sorry I forgot to complete the post topic! When to call it a day on a piece.

Hello folks,

I seem to be at the stage where I learn a piece that I get very close to playing without mistakes, then I spend about 2 weeks plus trying to eradicate the random errors without succeeding.

I learnt my 3 grade 1 pieces (but am now not taking the exam) and my teacher asked me to perfect them over the hols but I am at the point that I feel I need to stop, otherwise I will spend the next few months going over the same old songs and not moving on to anything new.

I did learn Minuet in G by Bach and have approached this in a different way. I now ensure I secure 4 bars at a time before moving on, but again, when I thought I was nearly there 2 weeks ago, I am unfortunately still in the same position 2 weeks on!

I realise we are all different in our abilities and that this maybe something that I will always struggle and I cannot decide whether I should move on or stick with the pieces.

It would be really good to receive some advice as to what I should do and or how some of you may have overcome the same obstacle I am experiencing.

By the way, I can only sight read to grade 1 level, so I learn by playing slowly at first and then when I notice I am no longer reading the notes I play from memory.

Thanks

I've noticed this sometimes on clarinet. The strange thing is that if there's a rhythm for instance that I've spent forever trying to get right on one particular piece and still haven't managed it, I can go to a different piece which has the same rhythm and suddenly it slips into place. I suspect it's because you start building up a mental block about a particular section that you can't get right. Sometimes you can break the block by practising it in a different way, eg by working the phrase backwards for instance, but it depends how badly you need to learn the piece. If it's for an exam or a concert, fair enough, but otherwise the same problem can often be overcome by changing pieces. Then if you've given the original piece a break, you can often go back to it and it comes right.

Have you tried memorising the piece - although I'm not a natural memoriser, sometimes it works for me to overcome a problem by memorising the phrase.

I agree with your sentiment about not just playing the same 3 pieces for another 6 (or however long) weeks.

I find if you move on to different material and then come back you have improved even without playing/practicing it.

Also I'm beginning to question if perfection is really possible - I reacently went back to look at the G3 pieces (I took G3 12 months ago) and there is no doubt I can play them a lot better than I did at the time, but I still think they could be improved.

Maybe you should come up with a practice schedule for the summer, where you work on each of the 3 'set' piece' at least once a week, but also spend some time on something else maybe sight reading maybe other pieces from the grade or some popular music.

Thanks, yes I am playing them from memory. I like to work this way because its nice to be able to play repetoire pieces when I go to friends that have a piano etc.

Interestingly enough, a few months into taking up the piano I attempted to play Minuet in G. It took me forever to play the first page and in the end I gave up trying to memorise the 2nd page. I came back to it 9 months later and have picked it up much faster and my memory for pieces has improved but I still cannot erradicate those mistakes!

In terms of Minuet in G (which is 2 pages) I would say a good attempt is making 2 mistakes (playing wrong notes) and a bad attempt is playing about 8 notes incorrectly say. Then there is also my erratic touch. Sometimes I may play a note or series of notes louder than intended and sometimes my piano wont sound the note, (rental piano soon to be replaced by U1 hooray!).

With my grade 1 pieces I probably make between 2 and 5 mistakes.

Is that to be expected for this level? I suppose I worry that if I make all these mistakes at this grade I will at the next grade too!

I think if you feel you're making no headway, then you can reasonably put the piece aside for a bit. However, I don't think you need to conclude that you are having to give up on it: sometimes we reach a ceiling for a time, but by putting in some graft on other things, our horizons expand, and you could well find that you are able to come back to it at some later point and that you will have absorbed other skills and techniques which allow you to play the piece far better: I know this has happened to me several times. I first started trying to learn a Bach Brandenburg Concerto when I'd only just begun playing the treble recorder - recorder players will recognise what a daft thing that was to attempt - and I got so far, then was well and truly stuck. After five years of lessons (I really really had bitten off too much ) and an exam or three, I went back to the piece after getting an invitation to perform it, and wow, I could do it . Not perfectly, no; I have never managed to play anything perfectly, but well enough to give performing it a go.

It doesn't mean either that you shouldn't have tried to learn the piece at this stage: if we only ever go for learning pieces we can master fully, then there is no sense of pushing boundaries. Sometimes we need pieces to be just a teeeny bit beyond what we've managed before, so that we can stretch out and try something which will extend our ability - the satisfaction may have to come from coming back to it at a later stage, but it is still a great experience, because it helps to provide a measure of just how far you've come along. Don't ever let a piece frustrate you though - if it does that, it'll turn you off music.

I wonder about the counting mistakes idea too - some mistakes are bigger than others, some make more of an impact than others....also, the goal of perfecting your music also involves getting expression right, keeping tempo right, all sorts of other things. Try looking more at the whole piece - focusing on a missed note can have the effect of putting you off your stroke for the next bar or so, putting the next section at risk too. I know you need to know where the errors are in order to practise, but when it comes to performing, you need to be able to recover from those. I've been arrogant enough to have put a youtube video up - it has some glaring mistakes in it, but the feedback I get is flatteringly nice, so maybe they didn't matter as much as I'd feared . And yes, it is diploma-level playing...

Thanks for your advice. I agree with you entirely Anacrusis, that what is more important when playing a piece is to express it as musically as possible rather than worry so much about getting it note for note perfect. So I do play through my mistakes when possible.

At least I know now that it is time to move on to other pieces to keep the learning momentum up. I will just have to explain to my teacher why the pieces have not improved!

My teacher has mentioned the same thing to me in relation to some pieces which have been causing me difficulty (at least one of which had me ready to fling my sax at the wall in frustration, because I could *not* get the dratted thing right, no matter how hard I tried! In retrospect, I probably should have moved on before getting to that stage ). He said that he had a real mental block in relation to one piece for his Finals recital at music college - bizarrely, though, it seemed that if he played through until he hit the difficult patch (which fortunately was in movement 1 out of umpteen), when he tried again from the beginning it went fine. In the end, he had to arrive a bit early for his recital and play through till the piece fell over, before letting the audience in . So take heart that this happens to players at all levels of experience and ability...



From my limited experience, I second both of these comments. I am busy wrestling with a piece which is meant to go a lot faster than I can currently play it, but I'm finally seeing some signs of progress (having started with it WAY slower than the metronome markings), and the sense of achievement is much greater than if I'd been able to play it note-perfect straight off. On the other hand, I have ignored my teacher's advice in relation to moving on from other pieces which were frustrating me, and regretted it. One experience was so bad (see above), it even had me considering for more than a split second that I might actually give up learning the instrument altogether



Again, fully agree with this. I doubt whether any player, no matter how gifted, is ever entirely satisfied with a performance, and equally doubt whether any performance is musically "perfect". I view music to some extent like language - if I end up able to communicate my feelings about the piece in the way that I play it, without making such significant errors that it hinders my listener's ability to understand, then there has to be a measure of success in that performance, errors notwithstanding.

I have just been on You tube and listened to a few renditions of Minuet in G and I have to say how surprised I am at the lack of dynamics people add compared to the piece.

So I guess in that sense I should be pleased with how I am playing it in terms of expression and ignore the wrong notes!

By the way I have had a "ready to throw the piano out of the window" moment before, only I am not that strong!

You know these forums are so good. It is so helpful to realise that no matter what level you are you are not the only one who experiences difficulties. It's only too easy to perceive you are absolutely rubbish and that everyone is far better than you and progressing at a faster rate!

I suppose with a user name of Mini mo you wouldn't be strong enough!

Bearing in mind that I'm only a G4 clarinet and novice piano student, you may wish to disregard my views, but for what it's worth...

I think I'd make two points with regard to security of notes.

Going by the marking criteria for Grades 1-5 ABRSM exams, you would be expected to have "General security of notes and rhythm" to obtain a Pass mark. If you were deemed to have "Just under the acceptable standard in general accuracy", then you are more likely to fail on that piece. Where the "acceptable standard" falls is not clear though! In a Grade 1 piece which is very short, 5 mistakes might be deemed not to be acceptable, but that's just speculation.

The way I see it is that exam criteria are based on guiding you towards an acceptable performance standard. So whether we're doing exams or not, the criteria are a useful set of guidelines to keep us on track, in my opinion.

The other point I would make is that there's a difference, in my opinion, between an advanced player making an occasional slip through nerves or a slight lapse in concentration, and a beginner not mastering a piece at the level they're working on. I don't mean to sound negative here (sorry!) but mastering the notes at this level is (in my view) all part of becoming more dextrous and familiar with moving around the keyboard (I speak here as a novice pianist). So personally I would recommend trying to become secure on the notes, and then make it sound musical, rather than trying to make it sound musical without getting the notes right. I think if we slip up on the notes, it should be by accident not because we've made a conscious decision that they don't matter too much! I know I'm probably over-stating what you mean here, but I'm just trying to better explain what I mean by exaggerating a little!

It's been said on a different thread that all levels of player should contribute to discussions and I agree with that because I might learn something from somebody commenting on my view, and if I've said anything truly amiss, somebody will hopefully correct me

Thanks Skylark for your point of view. I can empathise with both sides of the discussion.

If I were to do my grades I would agree that it would not be wise to take Grade 1 until the pieces were totally secure. I also think it is detrimental to my confidence that I focus on all the errors at present. It would probably lead to me giving up because no matter how hard and long I tried to get those pieces right, if I couldn't I would become more and more frustrated. At the end of the day I am learning to play because I love playing the piano and I find it very fulfilling.

I do want to learn to become a well rounded player and I certainly don't want to feel like I am giving up on those pieces and it may be that Grade 1 level pieces are a little too difficult for me if I can't get them right most of the time. It almost seems the more I play a piece, the worse it gets! Who knows whether I will ever overcome this issue but if I dwell on it, I dont think it will help in the long run (having considered everyone's opinions).

This is the first instrument I have ever played and I have had no prior experience of music so the learning process is new to me!

I think this is maybe they key sentence from what you've just said. If you are working hard at the piece and it is going backwards then it's probably time to give it a break. It is very easy to develop mental hang-ups about particular pieces or passages, where because you make a mistake regularly (or don't get it to sound quite how you want it to) you end up getting fixated with what you're doing and for some reason this then makes you make mistakes more. Often working on the technical aspects e.g. the rythym or fingering pattern in a different context (so you break the mental association with the piece or passage you 'can't' play) can help. Do you have another piece which covers similar things? If so, then try doing this and come back to the piece you're having problems with later - you might be surprised at how well you can then play it.

This is a fascinating thread with many nuggets of wisdom. I'm just an adult beginner as well, but everything here seems to make sense--even if it means that it's still not any easier to play some of the pieces

From what I've read and experience and heard from my teacher, in addition to chatting with other adult beginners like myself... I'll try to summarise:

- Adults think they should be progressing faster
- Adults think they should be able to master piano in a few months (well, not exactly "master", but you get the point)
- Adults think that since they didn't commence piano lessons at 7 years old they'll never get to Grade 5 or higher
- Adults need to learn a piece by practising it over and over and over everyday without taking a break; after all, they're not children and should be able to handle it
- Adults feel they should be able play a piece perfectly once they have learned it "well"


None of the above is true according to what I have read in multiple places, heard from experienced teachers and, deep down, I feel and believe. If so many people are saying that the above are myths, well, then perhaps those people are right. As an adult, we "know more" than children and it is definitely hard to let go of those anxieties and beat-ourselves-up-approach that we should be able to play the piece perfectly.

Strangely enough, whenever I am helping one of my own children practice and she/he says "This piece is too hard." or "I can't do that with my two hands" or "I don't know how to..." I *always* reassure them "that it is possible and we're only just learning it now. It's hard right now, but we'll get the hang of it in due time."

Upon reflection, it is much much easier for me to say that to my own children and genuinely believe it, than for me to say it to myself. Adults are their own worst critics!

The trick (I find) is to not let the myths above eat you up and turn into negative energy. For adults, it sometimes takes almost as much work to just 'go with the flow' as it does to learn a new piece of music.

I wholly agree! This is the core of so many things I read about adult learning some time ago and of an interesting article I read (precisely in an attempt to reduce my frustration!) which dealt with the many myths associated with adult learning It was called "Musical Fossils" and provides interesting insight about learning the piano as an adult . You can find it here http://www.musicalfossils.com/work.html
Enjoy!

In addition to Ezra's excellent summary of adult learner problems, there was a recen thread on "Biggest challenges for adult learners?" (in Adult Learners). It might be useful to have a look at that....

Also thanks for the "Musical Fossils" article..... jut off to get it.

The (stone) elephant

[an interesting article I read (precisely in an attempt to reduce my frustration!) which dealt with the many myths associated with adult learning It was called "Musical Fossils" and provides interesting insight about learning the piano as an adult . You can find it here http://www.musicalfossils.com/work.html
Enjoy!
[/quote]
Thank you so much for this link. Recommended reading for any beginner adult learner and probably for others too.

I once read somewhere a tip that was to play your piece one last time as slowly as you can manage (but absolutely note perfectly), then to leave it alone for a couple of days for it to sink into our aged brains! I've tried this a number of times and I'm a firm believer that it works when you go back to the piece it seems 20% more familiar, hope it works for everyone!

i would give a rest for a while. try some other pieces. having said that, i'm trying to learn a bach fugue (the one in c minor from book 2) and am finding I have to do other things too, because it is literally driving me batty. Keep on keeping on, it will click.

Thanks I'll give this a try.

Oh I'm going to try that! Thanks

Let me know how you go on Sarah?

I did this last night, playing slowly, reading the sheet and making no mistakes at a constant tempo. I'll see if it works tomorrow!

Haven't got that far yet, but will let you know