Hi all - specific piano issue here. I've got a rudimentary question on how people learn to play Hands Together effectively (hereafter "HT"). Looking for any comments/advice on what people here have done that have worked for them in learning the art of HT.

Quick intro recap: I'm studying my G1 piano pieces (Gavot, Erin and Trudging for those familiar with G1 piano 2009-10) and have been taking lessons for a short while (few months). I have made very decent progress in that time (I posted a longer intro a few weeks ago). My teacher is on faculty at Julliard and he's very patient and knowledgeable. I started from absolute 'square one' in music (didn't know Middle C from my middle doorbell) and I can now sight-read quite a bit (some of the lower Bass clef or higher Treble clef notes take me a bit longer still). He thinks my playing level can even tackle some G2 pieces.

I've got my scales down-pat, just need to memorise the ones I have not done so yet. Otherwise, I have the technic such as 3-4-3 (or 4-3-4 for F major RH) and can even do the arpeggios fairly smoothly.

But the HT thing for pieces is maddening! When learning a new piano piece, such as my G1 pieces, my approach has been that I learn hands separately ("HS") first, to solve the technical issues and potential trickiness of any of the music. Once I know the HS, I start to put HT--slowly. But, of course, it's not so simple!! Naturally, for an adult beginner in one's 30s, it can be frustrating. Of course, some of the pieces requires hand movement, so it's not simply as though the fingers on resting on those notes the whole time.... there are some instances where the hands needs to move down an octave, etc.

So - I'm looking for any comments/advice (support ) on what people here have done that have worked for them in learning the art of HT, especially early on in their studies. Many thanks.

Ezra

What I would do, in your situation, would be to forget about learning HS for the mean time and concentrate only on playing hands together. Slow the pieces down as much as it takes for you to be able to do everything in both hands and the right time and with the right notes. Once you've mastered playing it at a very slow speed, speed it up gradually, only playing it faster when you've mastered the current speed.

Once you've got the hang of playing things HT a bit more, you may be able to learn the hands separatlely and put them together afterwards without too much trouble but, for now, that probably won't help the HT situation too much.

Something I often work on with my beginners - children and adults alike - is break it down into playing a bar at a time to the first beat of the following bar. So, with the Gavot, play the first bar and stop on the first beat of bar 2, D in the RH and B in the LH. Play it lots of times rhythmically - keeping the 2 beats per bar: effectively you play the first note of bar 2 as a crotchet and take a beat to get ready to start bar 1 again. When you can play this 3 times correctly, move on to play bar 2 on its own including the first beat of bar 3. When you can do this, string bars 1 and 2 together, still finishing with the first note in bar 3. Continue with a bar at a time - bar 3, then 4 and then try to put the first 4 bars together. It is important to learn a bar at a time but always going onto the first beat of the following bar because this helps with the forward motion - in the Gavot, the triplet leads into the next bar so if you stop after the triplet you are stopping in mid air.

It's much easier to demonstrate than explain! When I do this with pupils during the lesson they often see an improvement just working on a few bars. They don't always do it a home, but I've found it a good way to build up playing HT. You might find it a bit tedious in the beginning but once you begin to develop the co-ordination, you will get quicker. I often tell my pupils, that once they have learned the first section, then the second section they will be able to play the whole piece because the final section is often the same or very similar to the first. Gavot - is three 8 bar sections each made up of two 4 bar phrases

I'm not a piano teacher, but another would-be pianist who finds hands together really hard!

Louise's advice strikes a chord with me. While I sometimes learn pieces hands separate, it depends very much on the piece.

If you know one or both hands separately, then I often found it helpful to hum the melody, or just tap the rhythm, of one hand whilst playing the other - ie tap or hum the bass line (not worrying too much about chords) whilst playing the treble line, and vice versa. That way you're practising playing the parts you know without being able to concentrate completely on it.

But I think Louise is right that lots of practice at actually playing both hands can be more beneficial, while you're still getting used to it, than learning both hands really well separately, which in some ways doesn't prepare you that well for playing them together!

Good luck - much sympathy, it is a brain twister getting your head round this stuff!

Well, I just came from 90 minutes of practise where I spent about 25 mins on Gavot (piece mentioned above). I incorporated Louise's HT method and it seems a good approach. Naturally, it is still a bit confounding, because (like most adults) while I know how it is *supposed* to be done, it's quite difficult to do. I was essentially able to nail down 4 bars using this approach, but still tied up on further bars. (Louise - the crotchet-triplet combination in RH of each bar in 5 and 6 are offset by two crotchets in LH, which of course only makes things more complicated for me...)

Seems a bit of faith that ultimately I will get the hang of it, but of course 'in the moment' of now, it seems impossible. I have patience and will keep at it for months until the piano fairies sprinkle the HT dust on me

When you have "But that's impossible!" moments, Ezra, think back to when you first started and look how far you have progressed... it's often reassuring to remind yourself of the impossible things you've already conquered

Remember the triplet fits into the time of one crotchet beat. There is a bit more to think about in bars 5, 6, 7 because the LH suddenly has two crotchets instead of a minim so you have to think more about both hands.

Well done so far - whatever you do practise it rhythmically and don't worry about how slowly you need to play it. You can always speed up later.

I like Sarah-flutes ideas too - play one hand and sing the other or tap the rhythm of the other hand. These are good for getting the two parts together in your head without having to worry about co-ordinate both hands together at the same time.

You can also practice by simplifying the RH so you only play the notes on the beats with the LH - eg bars 5-8 you could play straight crotchets in the RH - CC | DD | ED | C. Move on to playing the triplet as 3 C's, 3 D's instead of the runs as written - ie instead of CDE and DEF - play C-CCC | D-DDD | EEDD | C. Then build up to playing the in-between notes and the final chord as written. It's about finding little exercises as stepping stones to playing the piece as written without necessarily having to think about all the detail at once.

The triplets in RH paired against crotchets in LH are definitely the trickiest part of the piece (for me, at least). So.... let me see if I have this correct (or not ).... when I play the first note of the triplet (RH), I play the second crotchet of the bar with LH, correct?

When I learnt in my teens (40 years ago) I was not allowed to play HS had to do HT right from the start. So changing to doing HS first took quite an adjustment. When Teacher asked me to play HS, I still had to look to make sure I 'had permission' to do it; how daft is that!
My technique now is to 3 x 3 for each bar - RH 3 times, LH 3 times, HT 3 times and keep on doing it. I also try to memorise each had separately but then find I have to memorise again to ge the HT.
So courage - keep going - you have a 30+year advantage on me!

I think I came up with that one after someone challenged me to find a way singing was useful to pianists (or possibly just claimed that it couldn't be and never would be!).

I thought it would be beneficial but was surprised at how much it helped me. Though singing the part is probably more difficult than tapping it unless you're reasonably confident singing.

I'd try and help with your triplet issue, Ezra, but without the music in front of me I don't want to tell you something wrong if I have misunderstood! Hope Louise is still around

Another interesting approach... I'm going to slow things down as well (as suggested in pm) and play one bar at a time until I have it HT. It may seem painfully slow to me, but my teacher will be the one who will discern from week to week whether Ive made progress.

My Grade 1 exam is in the fall, and I do not feel that the pieces are overly difficult. They may not be a 'walk in the park' for me, but they feel manageable if I put in 2 hours of daily practise. My teacher thinks I will certainly be ready in a few months time at the rate I am going, and will have the HT worked out for these pieces... and more importantly, will have made progress toward HT overall piano playing .

Sounds a good approach, I'll try this as well, thanks

This... I find that trying to learn something hands separately just slows me down immensely - I just play everything HT but *slowly* at first. Learning HS just introduces extra steps, and at the advice of others on here I only play HS when I'm trying to resolve an issue or trying to sort out fingering

Hi Ezra,

I have been learning for about a year and am playing around grade 1 level (started from scratch like you). I wouldn't say my progress has been quite as quick, but then I was only doing about 3 hours a week for the first 6 months or so. Now doing much more!

I really found playing HT very tricky at first but then after about 6 months or so I realised I no longer had a problem, so perhaps you just need to give your self some more time.

I learnt gavot Grade 1 in the same manner as you: HS for the whole song then HT for the whole song (sorry if I have misunderstood how you learn), but have recently changed the way I practise and learn say bars 1- 4 HS then HT and get them as secure as I can before moving on to the next set. This way I am finding that it is much easier (although I still make loads of mistakes )

Also on Gavot I found that when I spent time on the left hand separately I saw a pattern with the left hand fingers which made it easier to remember in the legato part that I wouldnt have seen if I had only practised with HT. So I think there are benefits to using all methods as other posters have mentioned here.


[quote name='Ezra' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:24 PM' post='859794']
[quote name='Louise H' post='859789' date='Aug 3 2009, 04:14 PM']

The triplets in RH paired against crotchets in LH are definitely the trickiest part of the piece (for me, at least). So.... let me see if I have this correct (or not ).... when I play the first note of the triplet (RH), I play the second crotchet of the bar with LH, correct?
[/quote]


I hope I have done the quote thing correct here! Now if I understand you correctly you are refering to say for example bar 1, 2, 5, 6 etc? As it's duple time, there are 2 beats per bar. In the bass on the bars I have mentioned above your left hand plays a minim for the duration of the bar. Then in the RH there is one crotchet then a triple played for the duration of the second beat = crotchet. This is the best I can explain it to you in my limited knowledge. Hope its of use to you.

One tip with the Gavot... don't allow yourself to subconsciously change the fingering and then wonder why you keep playing it wrong (like I did a week before the exam - oops!)

The suggested fingering in the piece works well

In bars 5 and 6 the LH has to play two crotchets (as opposed to the minim in bars 1-2) and I guess with the LH being slightly 'busier' in 5-6 than in 1-2 this may be what Ezra was referring to. It's all too easy to find that one hand is waiting for the other one.

Yes, in bar 5 (and 6, 21, 22) your second LH crotchet plays with the first of the RH triplets.

One thing that can easily happen in this piece is that the triplets become slightly uneven - eg the third triplet becomes a bit longer than each of the other two. Something to guard against- but no doubt your teacher will be listening out for this. The subdivision of the crotchet beat into two quavers and into three triplet quavers in different bars is quite tricky for some grade one candidates.

Oops yes just noticed that, sloppy me!!!!!!

Precisely. (And the fingering changes from bar to bar, which is probably what makes it extra tricky to me.) Nevertheless, this is precisely why I am taking Grade 1 piano exam. It forces me to focus on the kinds of things I need to work on to improve as a novice pianist.

Hi Ezra - I also struggled immensely when I started HT scales at Grade 2. I broke it down into small sections, 1st 5 notes then up to an octave, next 5 notes then the same on the way back down. I never thought I'd ever master it but I did. I think it took me around 3 months.

I remember my teacher telling me once I'd got it then the hard work was over, lies all lies, along came B flat major for Grade 3 and another 3 months of torture Wait till you do arpeggios HT, I don't think I've ever played one without hitting a duff note!!

Can't wait for what delights Grade 4 throws up in terms of weird fingers HT

Keep at it, you'll WILL get there

Lois

For me when I started doing HT scales, it took me a while to get G major working (and I had to do it in chunks like you Lois) but now my hands have learnt the 3-4-3 pattern together I seem to be able to pick up a new scale very quickly. I tried A major today and it took about 5 minutes to do. How bizarre!

Saying that E major contrary motion is taking me ages!

Ezra, I found on many of the Grade 1 pieces that the fingering was odd (in my opinion). If you can find a better way of doing it that suits you, go for it. I try out different options all the time, sometimes they work, sometimes they enforce why the suggested fingering was written, but quite a lot I change it to suit the way I play. I always tend to simplify and keep fingering patterns repetitive unless they have to change, which I also think helps us newbies to remember what to play!

My teacher taught me from Day One that the fingering is a guide and not definitive. Oftentimes it is the best choice, he said, but you will still find plenty of options for choosing depending on what suits you. Personally, I tend to stick to the recommended fingering 80%+ of the time, but make modification accordingly. This is true for my exam pieces as well as other pieces I am learning.

An early exercise in fingering that my teacher gave me was Bach's famous Prelude in C from WTC. You can download a free version of the full piece at: http://gmajormusictheory.org/Freebies/Inte...ch/WTCPrel1.pdf I'm able to play through most of it--not sure what Grade it is considered, but seems higher than Grade 1. I believe Bach wrote these as practice pieces for his second wife (Anna Magdalena)...