binkyhk
Aug 6 2009, 07:30 AM
Hi can you tell me the notes that comprise these chords?
1. Bb(a triangle)
2.C min 7
3. E 7
4. F#7
5. G min 7
AndyL
Aug 6 2009, 08:51 AM
1. Bb D F A
2. C Eb G Bb
3. E G# B D
4. F# A# C# E
5. G Bb D F
A triangle or delta signifies a major 7th chord - ie a major triad with an added major seventh above the root. "Min 7" means a minor 7th chord (a minor triad with an added minor 7th). Just a "7" indicates a dominant 7th (major triad with added minor 7th).
TSax
Aug 6 2009, 10:49 AM
QUOTE(AndyL @ Aug 6 2009, 09:51 AM)

1. Bb D F A
2. C Eb G Bb
3. E G# B D
4. F# A# C# E
5. G Bb D F
A triangle or delta signifies a major 7th chord - ie a major triad with an added major seventh above the root. "Min 7" means a minor 7th chord (a minor triad with an added minor 7th). Just a "7" indicates a dominant 7th (major triad with added minor 7th).
I agree, mostly, with the caveat that the triangle can represent just a major triad without the 7th. It depends who's doing the charting and what their convention is. If you talk to a jazz pianist and tell them the context they'll let you know what they would play.
AndyL
Aug 6 2009, 08:35 PM
You may well be correct that some people intend a delta to signify a simple major triad. I don't see how it makes any sense to do this, however. Why use "Bb▲" to signify a simple major triad, instead of just "Bb"?
Personally, I prefer "maj7" anyway. Triangles tend to just confuse people.
binkyhk
Aug 7 2009, 10:51 PM
What about these ones?
C6
Cma7/B
C6/A
C7/G
F#o7
C7(b9)
D7 Sus
AndyL
Aug 8 2009, 12:02 PM
C6 - C E G A
Cmaj7/B - this is just an inversion of C major 7, so C E G B, with B in the bass
C6/A - as above, C E G A, with A in the bass (this one's a bit strange since it seems unlikely that this will actually sound like a C6 rather than an A minor 7 if A is in the bass)
C7/G - C E G Bb, G in the bass
F#o7 - F# A C Eb
C7b9 - C E G Bb Db
D7sus - D G A C
Violinia
Aug 8 2009, 09:17 PM
QUOTE(AndyL @ Aug 6 2009, 09:35 PM)

You may well be correct that some people intend a delta to signify a simple major triad. I don't see how it makes any sense to do this, however. Why use "Bb?" to signify a simple major triad, instead of just "Bb"?
Personally, I prefer "maj7" anyway. Triangles tend to just confuse people.
I promise you triangles don't confuse anyone in the jazz world - it's the accepted symbol for a major 7th. To write maj7 is just too unwieldy, hence the triangle.
binkyhk
Aug 8 2009, 10:43 PM
QUOTE(AndyL @ Aug 8 2009, 12:02 PM)

C6 - C E G A
Cmaj7/B - this is just an inversion of C major 7, so C E G B, with B in the bass
C6/A - as above, C E G A, with A in the bass (this one's a bit strange since it seems unlikely that this will actually sound like a C6 rather than an A minor 7 if A is in the bass)
C7/G - C E G Bb, G in the bass
F#o7 - F# A C Eb
C7b9 - C E G Bb Db
D7sus - D G A C
does the A in C6 need to be resolved?
what is o in F#07?
What is D7 sus? I still don't understand why DGAC is suspension.
How do these chords call in technical terms?
Thanks
AndyL
Aug 9 2009, 03:12 AM
QUOTE(Violinia @ Aug 8 2009, 10:17 PM)

I promise you triangles don't confuse anyone in the jazz world - it's the accepted symbol for a major 7th. To write maj7 is just too unwieldy, hence the triangle.
Not quite - the delta is
one accepted symbol for a major 7th chord. "Maj7" is more common, in my experience. The Real Book uses "maj7", not the delta, as do most other fakebooks I've seen ...
QUOTE(binkyhk @ Aug 8 2009, 11:43 PM)

does the A in C6 need to be resolved?
what is o in F#07?
What is D7 sus? I still don't understand why DGAC is suspension.
How do these chords call in technical terms?
Thanks
No, the A in C6 does not need to be resolved, it is an extra note which is added to the triad for colour.
The "o" in F#o7 actually should be a degree sign (small circle) and not the letter "o". The degree sign is the accepted symbol for a diminished chord - "F#o7" means "F sharp diminished seventh".
D7sus is really short for D7sus4, which means the chordal third is replaced by the fourth. The chord is called "suspended" because it was originally formed through suspensions, however in jazz it usually isn't (voice leading is less strict in jazz anyway).
6 chord - major triad plus 6th above root
o7 chord - 3 stacked minor thirds
7sus(4) chord - dominant 7th, with the third replaced by the fourth
binkyhk
Aug 9 2009, 08:54 AM
QUOTE(AndyL @ Aug 9 2009, 03:12 AM)

QUOTE(Violinia @ Aug 8 2009, 10:17 PM)

I promise you triangles don't confuse anyone in the jazz world - it's the accepted symbol for a major 7th. To write maj7 is just too unwieldy, hence the triangle.
Not quite - the delta is
one accepted symbol for a major 7th chord. "Maj7" is more common, in my experience. The Real Book uses "maj7", not the delta, as do most other fakebooks I've seen ...
QUOTE(binkyhk @ Aug 8 2009, 11:43 PM)

does the A in C6 need to be resolved?
what is o in F#07?
What is D7 sus? I still don't understand why DGAC is suspension.
How do these chords call in technical terms?
Thanks
No, the A in C6 does not need to be resolved, it is an extra note which is added to the triad for colour.
The "o" in F#o7 actually should be a degree sign (small circle) and not the letter "o". The degree sign is the accepted symbol for a diminished chord - "F#o7" means "F sharp diminished seventh".
D7sus is really short for D7sus4, which means the chordal third is replaced by the fourth. The chord is called "suspended" because it was originally formed through suspensions, however in jazz it usually isn't (voice leading is less strict in jazz anyway).
6 chord - major triad plus 6th above root
o7 chord - 3 stacked minor thirds
7sus(4) chord - dominant 7th, with the third replaced by the fourth
for D7sus, which note is suspended and should it be resolved upwards or downloads?
Thanks
Violinia
Aug 9 2009, 09:56 AM
QUOTE(binkyhk @ Aug 9 2009, 09:54 AM)

for D7sus, which note is suspended and should it be resolved upwards or downloads?
Thanks
The 11th, which is also the 4th note above the tonic. It's called the 11th here because when the 7th is present, all the other extensions have to have their higher number alternatives, ie 9th for 2nd, 13th for 6th etc. If the chord doesn't contain the 7th, you could call it the 4th.
The 11th suspended will normally resolve down to the 10th, meaning the 3rd.
Haha I just noticed you said 'downloads' instead of 'downwards' - as computers relentlessly take us all over with their lingo....
AndyL
Aug 9 2009, 11:30 AM
Yes, the fourth is the suspension (it's okay to call it a fourth rather than an eleventh because it's a suspension, not an extension as such). Although in many cases (in jazz) this "suspension" is not prepared and often doesn't resolve either, in which case you could think of it as an unresolved appogiatura, I suppose. If it does resolve it will resolve downwards. This chord is used a lot in jazz tunes as part of a tonal chord progression but is also a common chord in "modal" jazz tunes (eg Herbie Hancock's 'Maiden Voyage"), in which case it is treated as a static harmonic entity in its own right and there is no need for resolution.
Some common tonal contexts (key of C):
- G7sus4 G7 C
- G7sus4 C (no resolution of the "suspension", but a very common progression in jazz and pop anyway)
- G7sus4 Cmaj7 (C resolves downward to 7th of Cmaj7)
Violinia
Aug 11 2009, 11:22 PM
But in jazz, the presence of the 7th in a chord turns a 4th into an 11th, honest! So G11 is just a convenient (and commonly used) way of describing a dominant chord with a 4th in it. Takes up less room on a chord chart apart from anything else!
AndyL
Aug 13 2009, 01:28 AM
No - "C7sus" is short for "C7sus4", not "Csus11" (which wouldn't really make sense). I've never seen the symbol "7sus11" anywhere, not in any charts, fakebooks, or theory books. On the other hand, "7sus4" is very common (although it is often just "7sus"). The 4th in the chord is called a 4th and not an 11th because it is not an upper extension like a 9th in a 9th chord or an 11th in an 11th chord, it is a "suspension" - it replaces the 3rd.
It is true that many people interpret C11 to be a similar or identical chord to a C7sus4, but the reason for this is that if you include the third in a C11 (which you theoretically should) then the chord often sounds unusably dissonant because of the minor ninth interval between the third and the eleventh, and so the third is usually left out. Which means that C11 and C7sus4 are basically the same chord, and it doesn't really make much difference in practice whether you think of it as being an 11th (which would make the chord a C11) or a 4th (C7sus4).
But yes - "Csus" is definitely short for "Csus4", not "Csus11".
binkyhk
Aug 13 2009, 10:41 AM
What about these chords?
Dmi7
G9
Gmi7
C7(b9)
Emi7/G
D7sus
G13
Cma7/B
TSax
Aug 13 2009, 11:40 AM
A minor 7th chord has 1, flat 3, perfect 5 and flat 7 - the intervals between the notes are minor 3rd, major 3rd, minor 3rd.
A diminshed 7th chord is a stack of minor 3rds. So if you were representing it by degrees of the scale it would be 1, flat 3, flat 5 and double flattened 7, which I think in classical terminology is tonic, minor 3rd, diminished 5th and diminished 7th.
binkyhk
Aug 15 2009, 10:03 AM
just a rather stupid question. what does fakebook mean?
I came across this term so many times....without knowing what it means....
TSax
Aug 15 2009, 12:37 PM
A fakebook is a book of lead-sheets (i.e. melody plus chord-symbols) of well-known standards. They were usually taken down from recordings and quite often there were mistakes in them. In the past they were illegal because of copyright laws and often sold "under the counter". Nowadays there are plenty of legal versions with the mistaked corrected (well, more or less) and they tend to be called "Real Books". The Hal Leonard Real Books, and the Chuck Sher New Real Books are probably the most used in the UK.
diapason
Aug 15 2009, 04:16 PM
I have quite a collection of fake "fake books" which have been printed from handwritten copies. Some of them were issued to the Services in the US for use in the military camps.
"Buskers" book is another term for the same thing - HATE that expression
mrmusic
Aug 15 2009, 11:20 PM
Fake books are generally transcribed into the key of the piece as it was originally written or most often performed.
There are generally/usually different books available: in Bb (for trumpets/tenor saxes/clarinet,in Eb for alto , C treble clef (keys/flute) and C bass clef for tbn/bass.
The books which aren't in C have the notes/chords transposed so that a group of musicians can get together and jam!!
Most tunes are printed onto one page/sometimes two; to avoid page turning!!
Decisions are usually made before playing as to who will take a solo where and when!!
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