Apologies for the slightly out of place topic, but I rather hoped that if I posted it here, those most likely to be able to help would probably see it, while hopefully avoiding the match-to-tinder effect.

So how do people find a Church they feel happy in? I've visited far too many in the last 2 years that have left me feeling disappointed, or worse, downright creeped out. I'm now off to another new city, and have been poking around on the internet etc, but wondered what other people suggested. Obviously, its pretty hard to tell whether a place of worship feels right until you've been a few times, but it'd be nice to filter out the ones that are going to make me want to run away before that stage!

That's an interesting question. I found a church where I could worship after almost turning, or rather being turned, against group worship completely in my teen years.
I love listening to a cathedral choir and can get beautifully lost in their sounds sometimes but I don't really like being made to sing hymns each sunday. I have always found that sitting in an empty church just enjoying the peace and spiritual warmth most comforting and because of that I am a Friend. (Quaker) where we do just that and no one makes me sing!
I suppose that you will find the place where you are best able to worship and that will lead you to becoming a known and welcomed church member. How you go about that I'm not sure. I shall be most interested to read other thoughts here.

This is never going to be an easy one because it depends what you are looking for, and while it is always nice to see a large and happy congregation, ultimately they are not a market and they're not selling anything so it is up to you to go a couple of times and see if the atmosphere is one that gels with you.

If I ever see someone new I wonder if they are thinking how unfriendly I am - but then in a new place I just want to be left alone for a while; so try not to judge anywhere or its people too harshly on just a brief acquaintance.

You may want High church with trad hymns etc - but that might go hand in hand with types who like to don wig and tights (I mean academic hoods and such) and dress up and wave incense. OTOH the muscular type with earnest attention to Youth work might be more in tour line.

Just go along, suck it and see - few clues available but if the notice board outside makes you cringe, probably avoid that place.

Difficult one this, but very often now churches have their own websites and you can often tell a lot from these, as well as the noticeboards outside or in the porch. They can be very telling with rotas for flower arranging and such like.

Also, the language they use can be important. A friend goes to the local CofE and we were commenting about the titles given to different groups that took place in the week. The new vicarette had renamed the "pram service" (toddlers group to you and me) " xxxx Tots" (sorry can't remember what xxxx was, but it was something up to date and snazzy).

I think you can only find out really by going to try out, as well as reading all the signals from the noticeboard and website, so it will inevitably take a little while.

That is indeed a very interesting question.

We live in a village, and stopped attending Sunday morning services at our local church about two years ago.

The village itself is quite affluent, and this seems to create a certain 'cliqueiness' in the church and in some other organisations. There is also a bit of a 'them and us' attitude between newcomers, oldcomers like ourselves (20 years + in the village), and those who were born here.

However, a bigger problem is that there are several people in the church (and DCC) with 'agendas'; ranging from one Reader who I am sure was a 'wee free' in a previous life, another who is a disaffected Methodist who is trying to turn our (Anglican) church into what he feels the Methodist church should have been, and an ex Warden who won't agree to anything without bells and smells.

One of their crackpot decisions was to ban church raffles, as they go against Methodist and 'wee free' principles; even though we cannot afford to fix leaks in the roof or pay the Parish Share.

As you can imagine this is a very odd mix, and many people feel unwelcome and uncomfortable. As a result, many people prefer to attend early morning or weekday 'said' services, when there is no social element, and no politics. Many others simply stay away until they are either married or buried.

We ourselves left after falling foul of the 'Fair Trade Brigade', who not only wanted to stipulate what we eat and drink in the church coffee room, but also threw away tins of tea and coffee that had been donated by members such as ourselves. I later found out that one of the key instigators was working as a Consultant to TraidCraft at the time, but this little secret was kept quiet inside the 'inner circle' until well after the DCC had passed the motion.

We now attend other churches in the same parish, and find all of them much more friendly and welcoming. Better still, there seem to be very few people with 'agendas'. They also welcome our help, whether it be practical things like playing the organ or mending things, or reading at services. I can honestly say we are much happier now than for a long time, but it is sad to see the church we were married in, and our children baptised in, falling apart.

I realise the situation is very different in towns and cities, as you will probably come across a lot more people with 'agendas'. However, you also have the advantage of anonymity at larger churches and cathedrals that one simply doesn't get in village churches.

Edit: I think it also depends on the clergy, and how good they are at managing people. Sadly ours likes an easy life, so he won't do or say anything to upset those who like to do the work, even if it is only to fulfil their own agendas. In my experience, strong clergy tend to have much fuller churches and happier congregations.

I cannot offer much more advice than this, other than to try different churches and see how you feel. However, I thought it might be helpful to know that you are not alone in finding some churches unwelcoming, if not downright hostile. Quite what these people think they are doing for God's Kingdom I really don't know.

SB

Don't knock it 'till you've tried it!

Depends on the nature of the city you're moving to. Churches with Anglo-Catholic traditions tend to be concentrated more in industrial cities, though of course this is not for everyone. A church with a "central" style of worship (how long has this term been in use?!) in a place of reasonable size will probably be what you require, unless you like more evangelical stuff. I think sometimes you've got to make the first move with speaking to people over coffee at the end, particularly in a place where the people are largely very established (this will be more so in smaller places in my opinion). It's a sad fact that many churches do attract rather bossy individuals who are unbending in their outlook and approach, and who want their own way. However, I often think that the situation will not improve without new blood such as your own!

One of the best ways to get amalgamated is to join a church group, particularly one with a presence on Sundays, such as the choir. People will automatically notice you and want to get to know you and think you're wonderful, and then it'll lead to a place in the church and many friendships.

Town churches, as has been said, are better for anonymity and may have higher standards of music etc. Of course, there will also be more choice of worship styles, and many churches will have gathered congregations who flock in from far and wide to experience a particular liturgy or persuasion.

A good move is to Email the clergy before your first visit. They'll be thrilled to hear from you and your interest will be encouraging to them. They'll then hopefully make you welcome when you turn up for the first time. If this doesn't work, it's maybe a good indication of the levels of hospitality...

Good luck!

The only way to avoid being hurt is not to get involved.

It is wonderful just to slip in and out of services, drawing spiritual inspiration from the worship and, hopefully, the music, whilst avoiding the politics.

One can be anonymous in most of the central London churches that have proper professional choirs, as well as most non-parish type cathedrals. In many parish churches, including some that aspire to have 'semi-professional' set ups, the atmosphere below the shallow surface can be poison. Such places tend to have a relatively high congregational turnover.

Being a regular organist and/or choirmaster is a fine way to get hurt!

Barry Williams

Or a singer/musician.

Who said I was knocking it? I don't mind a bit of theatre but that's ALL it is, as far as I'm concerned.

tamsin might not be a 'joiner' - it takes courage to sign up for things and the last thing a lot of people want is to be on committees. So far, I've managed to avoid the things but to salve my conscience about not being a joiner in I found myself teaching Sunday school for donkey's years and becoming an organist. (Bye bye lazy weekends!)

I suppose you are liable to be hurt if you become an active participant in any sort of society.

Have you thought about joining some sort of religious order as a tertiary (Tertiary?). That sounds sufficiently deep and spiritual without having to join a flower rota. No idea how to go about it but its been lurking in the back of my mind for years. Might this be the way to go for someone who doesn't want all the social-club implications of a parish church....

That's certainly very true, but only up to a point. If the OP can find the right church (and, by that, I mean the right people), she should get more out of the experience than just the worship and the music. I value a number of friendships I've had with people from churches, but, I most confess, you are right, Barry, in saying that being a regular organist/choirmaster can be a fine way to get hurt. Certainly, a number of "awkward" people can be found in churches among the congregation, musicians and - not least - the clergy.

Good luck, Tamsin! I hope that, by trying out various churches, you'll find the right one for you.

You lot are almost enough to put someone off ever setting foot in a Church! If I'm honest, the social politics are a lot less scary than finding myself in the chaos of many so-called contemporary services in various different churches where you have no idea what's going on, and some of the concepts that seem part of the church life seem downright disturbing! (Anyone else found that some churches seem on the other side of the border between church and cult... or is that just me?)

That said, I gave up on the last church I tried to attend because I found myself in the awkward position of being sat in their token 'somewhatmoretraditional' service led by no-one especially qualified to lead a service, where the sermonesquething consisted of a lecture about how members shouldn't feel upset about loosing their proper traditional service (i.e. the only communion service, which had just been cancelled) to a second contemporary one because it was important to attract new, young people. And that young people (like myself) weren't interested in the traditional church, and they needed to move on blahdeblah. Perhaps he might have written a different lecture if he'd realised I'd be sat there trying not to laugh at the irony. After all, I'd just introduced myself to the people sharing my pew, explaining that I preferred a more traditional service, and didn't particularly enjoy the contempary service they'd just been displaced by!

It certainly wasn't particularly inspiring. Anyway, I always feel slightly uncomfortable going into huge details about my personal beliefs on a forum, but hopefully I'll have better sucess when I move in a couple of weeks time! I don't know if I'll be diving into the deep end and getting involved, but hopefully I can at least find a place that doesn't freak me out!

Have you read any of the reports from the mystery worshipper on the web ?
http://www.ship-of-fools.com/mystery/index.html

http://www.ship-of-fools.com/mystery/uk.html

I think the best way to approach all these things is a very softly softly approach.

It's always amazed me how un-christian some of the goings on are in churches, especially dare I say it in the music department in some cases.

I couldn't agree more, Susie! A group of us meet at the vicarage once a fortnight for church-related things... I could never dare repeat half of the things that are aired.

Very true. Like turning off the heating for Choral Evensong in the hope that nobody will come back, and it can be killed off for good.

And persisting in using modern, 'inclusive' language at the main Sunday morning service becuase it annoys the traditionalists.

I think between us we could write a book on the subject.

SB

Just a thought, tamsin, but where will you be based? There may be a Forummer near to your new location who knows the local scene, and is therefore able to advise which of the local churches does friendly bells and smells.

Someone mentioned websites earlier. A good start, but not all churches have their own (for example, St Canticle's doesn't), and of the ones that do, the sites aren't necessarily very good: for example, the site for Valhalla Parish Church is dreadful - the times of services are well hidden, and there are no clues as to whether one should pack one's tambourine. You may find a list of all local churches on the appropriate diocesan website, together with an indication of times of services, how traditional &c.


Which would undoubtedly run to several volumes...

Indeed it would.

Perhaps we could devote each volume to different aspects of unpleasantness and divisiveness?

SB

Maybe I could write the introduction??

Yes, I think Deborah's idea of a rough clue whereabouts you are / will be is a good one.

In the group of 5 parishes where I am organista at one of the lesser churches, the folk in charge of deciding such things have decreed that the two or three 8am services in the group will become one service rotated around the 5 churches. No one will know where it is, no one will go, it will be cancelled. Intentional?

Very likely. Are they well attended?

I suppose it also means that only those 'in the know' might attend.

Oddly enough, the 8.00 am Sunday monrning service at our local parish church is one of the best attended services, and regualry attracts 40 or more. The reason, quite simply, is that there is no sermon, no politics, and none of the happy clappy fairly traded all inclusive liberal do gooders that seem to take over the 10 am service with their praise band CDs most weeks.

SB

And you can get on with whatever you plan to do with the day's devotions done!

For those seeking traditional services a visit to the Prayer Book Society's Website may be rewarding.

Of course, things can change quickly, especially when a new incumbent arrives with the mistaken idea that a particular type of service attracts young people. It seems such a pity that congregations are destabilised by clerical whim. It happens in most denominations and music appears to play an important part in the process. There seems to be an assumption that a type or style of music will attract a certain age or category of attendee. That this is not so has been proved many times over, but some clergy persist.

In places where music is attractive there can be serious discontent and that impacts on the atmosphere of a church. If one treats the church as a place of worship rather than a social club the risk of getting hurt is less. Regrettably, since the publication of that dreadful volume 'The Parish Communion - a Series of Essays' by SPCK in 1937 things have gone in the general direction of a social club. It was that volume that proposed relegating choirs to Matins (so that the 'eucharist' could be 'sung by the people') and introducing a 'Parish Breakfast' to facilitate "..a unique opportunity of access to each other for the hundred and one purposes of parish life." The book was used to train many clergy. Regrettably its influence still pervades theological colleges.

Even cathedrals are not exempt from mere fashion. One place has lost many of its regular worshippers from the main Holy Communion service with a sudden change to so-called 'contemporary' language worship, even though the music has remained as before. Yet, by and large, cathedrals are doing well and parish churches less so.

Barry Williams

There seems to be an assumption that a type or style of music will attract a certain age or category of attendee. That this is not so has been proved many times over, but some clergy persist.
Yes.

... the music has remained as before. Yet, by and large, cathedrals are doing well and parish churches less so.

and I wonder why...

Your response is, I hope, rhetorical.

Well over 25% of the music broadcast is religious music. There is a huge interest in the heritage of our cathedrals and parish churches. Country churches are greatly visited. There has even been some plainchant in the top ten. There are more quotes from the Book of Common Prayer in most books of quotations (there certainly used to be in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations years ago) than there are from Shakespeare. Hymns are regularly quoted all over the place* and the interest in the annual service at the Cenotaph and the British Legion Act of Remembrance at the Albert Hall diminishes not one jot.

Yet, still, the ordained ministry focuses on styles of worship that clearly fail to connect people to the contemplation of things on high. What is so offensive to me is the dishonesty of the argument that one particular style will attract people and that young people should be attracted before others. As witnessed by attendances at the London churches, many cathedrals and Tamsin's postings, there are young people who appreciate and find spiritual benefit from traditional worship with music of quality.

Until there is an acceptance that a sense of the numinous is appropriate in church then things will remain as at present and churches will lose numbers.

There are brides who have gone to the Register Office rather than have the 'modern' form of Marriage Service and it is small wonder that the new marriage places are aping churches in their provision of the traditional - to the chagrine of some clergy. One vicar tried to prevent a place in Kent (directly opposite his beautiful church) getting its licence renewed because so many people preferred to go there than to his church, where the form of service was abhorrent to brides and grooms.

Religion is about meeting people where they are, rather than where the clergy think they ought to be.

Barry Williams

* I note that there are no quotations from the altered versions in Hymns 'Old and New' !

I know this is going off topic (sorry!), but I always find the assumptions that people will either want a traditional service OR a contemporary one quite interesting. Am I the only person who actually likes both?

Good heavens, no!

Places that have a wide variety of worship styles - and there are many - tend to avoid the type of politics that cause upset.

The problems arise when people are told that one form or another is the only appropriate way to worship God. Often this involves imposing a particular style of music on an unwilling congregation

Barry Williams

I find myself agreeing with Barry 100% and me a 'wee free' too!!(love that term!)

In all denominations, 'clergy' are trying to stuff God into a particular shaped box, and disrespecting other forms of worship.

In reference to the OP, if I was looking for a church, I find it a little like visiting the local pub (shock horror!). Some you walk into, everyone turns round and stares and you instantly feel the outsider. Others, there are little groups of people sitting in various corners, clearly getting on well, but not keen to engage the new comer in conversation. In another, the bar staff make friendly conversation, as do others around the bar, and slowly over time, friendships are made and you start to feel like a part of that 'community'. I don't choose my pubs according to the particular drinks on offer, more on the spirit with which they are served!

The very thing I was about to advise!

Not at all!

One of the things I like about my church is that we have hymns and so on sourced from everything from Hymns Ancient and Prehistoric to ones that someone has got the music of direct from the writer because the song is yet to be published. There are some really wonderful words and there is beautiful music at all ends of the scale.

We don't use liturgy usually but personally I have no problem with it, at all, and indeed grew up in a liturgical church. I think the liturgy very beautiful in many places, and I think it's a great shame that it's disregarded/pooh-poohed by some We do sometimes use bits and pieces borrowed from a liturgy, and I think it can be very moving and meaningful for a church to speak with one voice.

Sometimes it's used without thought though - I remember a more "freeform" service I attended at college which then segued into a liturgy when no one in the room had been given a book or similar. Fine if you happen to know it off by heart, very offputting for newcomers or those from different backgrounds.

IMO a wise church should not judge content on whether something is trad or non-trad but on whether it will add to the worship.

Erm, sorry, straying from the topic

Good luck finding a church, Tamsin. My only method has always been "go and try it out" Sorry, not that helpful I know Occassionally I've found myself in very dry services, which didn't do much for me, or wild, insane services, which freaked me out. Usually, though, I've managed to find somewhere that suited sooner or later. Go in with an open mind and trying to have an attitude of worship and you'll find something to take away from most services (even if it's just "I am never ever ever going there ever again"... )

If you can seek out fellow church-goers in your area that may help you weed out some of the churches that are least likely to suit you... depends on what links and stuff you have in the new place, really, but worth thinking about. It can be less intimidating to go to a new church with someone that you either know or who is a fellow newcomer to the area, even if you ultimately come away with different impressions.

It depends what you want most from the church, too. Some people want mostly the opportunity for worship, others want strong teaching, others want to socialise with people who share their beliefs. (Making no value judgment just pointing it out!) It's worth thinking about where your priorities lie if you long for a church with a wonderful choir then someone recommending somewhere for its contemporary worship band may not help a lot

I third or fourth(?!) the suggestion that, if possible, someone might be able to help if you can mention a rough geographical area... in addition possibly what you think you are looking for and how far you are willing/able to travel?

The good thing about moving to a new city (as opposed to village!) is at least you are likely to have options.