This has probably been asked many times before, but can anyone suggest hymns that are good for someone who is getting the hang of the pedals? An exceedingly mediocre pianist originally, I have been taking organ lessons for the past 2 years and would say I am about grade 4 standard or thereabouts (judging from what I can play from CH Trevor's Progressive Organist Book 1).

The church I play for uses Mayhew's Hymns Old and New - both the main blue hymn book and the red supplement. Yes, quite a lot of what is in there is pretty rotten, but I don't see us changing any time soon if ever!

Any suggestions are most welcome.

I can't suggest any hymns (at present) but the MOST important thing is not to play the bass line on the manuals if you are using the pedals; that's a mistake many people make. It goes against the grain to start with but soon becomes second nature.

Why? I have done this for 30+ years...

That is what I do just now with manuals only, with some judicious transposition where my hands can't quite stretch a 12th!

Why, though? It's easier not to do so. But whatever floats your boat, I guess.

To the OP: Caswall is a very good hymn tune to start off pedalling with.

The first hymn I confidently played using the pedals was The Day Thou Gavest. I would heartily recommend the tune Blaenwern (Love Divine) as a friendly starter.

My problem was that I started playing on Sundays before I had a clue about the organ. I relied on pistons for registration (makes me cringe now) and didn't do feet at all. It was only when I'd been playing a bit that I decided to get into playing the beast properly and in its own right. I had to learn the pedals whilst at the same time put on an acceptable show at services, which meant that I was forced to do the bass line with my LH for a while. When I got to be a bit happier with pedalling, I would pedal the bass line as an extra, but not couple the pedals to the manuals ever and play the bass line with my LH too, lest the feet came adrift. As I became more comfortable, I started coupling the one-stop pedal division to the manuals, and now I am at the stage where I have, as a matter of policy, left the bass line entirely to the feet. Aside from anything else though - is it not effective to sometimes play a verse without the pedals?

Most organists play the bass line on the pedal with the manuals coupled, so it is not necessary to play the bass line on the manuals. In fact, it is easier on the hands if the LH doesn't play the bass line. The LH can then take some of the alto notes to facilitate legato playing.

It's just the way it was - like playing in socks and not in shoes. Such were the habits of a 10 year old in the late 1970s.
I am just interested why bourdon16 clearly thinks it is a heinous habit!


True up to a point, but doesn't that depend on [a] the size of your hands [b] the action of the instrument and [c] the acoustic as to whether it affects the legato of the line?

If you leave out the bass line with the left hand and only play the tenor, then it can be quite effective to solo the tenor on another manual. Isn't this called a 'faux bourdon' or something? eg 'The Day Thou Gavest' is a good one for this as it has a nice tenor line. There are many other examples.
I also often stop pedalling for an odd verse , particularly if the words imply quiet. In fact I throttle right down and just play enough to support the choir, and prevent them going out of tune. But I don't stop playing for a verse altogether, a recipe for disaster!

Faux bourdons sounds a bit posh for my congregation. Isn't the job of the organist to lead the singing, not try to put them off? This is why I cringe when I hear organists in 'normal' parish churches try and get cute with last verse reharmonisations of their own making and end up putting off all and sundry just for their own cheap thrill...

Well as far as last verse harmonisations go, our congregation love me to use them. Though most of the time I use the Noel Rawsthorne ones. (He lives nearby, and has played our organ a couple of times for midweek funerals). Usually I do a couple per service.
I suppose they could be also be used by non or minimal pedallers.

Yes, well-written ones can be great - it's the "home grown" ones which tend to disappoint..

I confess to playing the bass line with LH as well as pedal because whilst it may be ergonomically more sensible to leave it to the feet, the brain wants the LH to do it and disaster is more likely to ensue if I attempt to uncouple the brain and the LH for bass part only.

Do what is easiest, I say. The congregation won't notice.

Foul bourdons, perhaps?

You're lucky if you get opportunity to hear other organists play on Sundays. Most of us are chained to the organ stool Sunday by Sunday. Don't you have a regular Sunday job? I thought you did....

I am sorry to cause such controversy!

Try playing Wolvercote or Ladywell with all parts on the manuals AND pedals taking the bass - so much extra work. Why make life difficult? Surely the point of using the pedals (other than to add 16' tone) is to make playing the instrument easier. To adapt what fsharpminor says; if you need to solo out the melody on a Tuba then LH has to take A+T and feet the bass.

For OP I might suggest Vienna (7 7 7 7) and St. Denio (11 11 11 11)

My suggestion for the latter would be:



May I add further fuel to the flames by mentioning that 35 years ago I was advised not to repeat all repeated notes in the pedals? Of course, one lifts to start a fresh musical phrase [after the semibreve A flat etc.) but the first 2 right foot D flats are tied.

In the penultimate bar of line 2 either footing is OK although left toe may be safer and more correct (I do right heel)

[Ignore the symbol right at the end it's a hidden Finale rest which show up on the .jpg]

Off to get my tin hat!

Some hymn tunes are notoriously difficult to play. Almost all of them are written on two staves which gives an impression of simplicity, but the reality is sometimes quite different.

Wolvercote and Ladywell have already been mentioned. I add Cuddeson - a very fine tune - from the same composer as these other two - also quite tricky to play well. Then there is Herbert Howells' 'Michael', rther difficult to play. Gonfalon Royal is impossible without using the pedals, though there is no need to have 16' pedal stops drawn.

I have written a number of tunes out on three staves, rather like 'Jerusalem' in Sir George Thalben-Ball's arrangement at A&MR No 578. I have also written out a few tunes with the melody in the tenor, or as a solo with the contralto and tenor parts in the left hand. It only takes a minute or two to arrange a tune, (I do not have Sibelius or any similar programme) and it is there as a resource for evermore.

Choruses often give me problems because the scores are rarely worked out properly for the organ or piano. Some are impossible to play, even with a large stretch. Hopefully our 150 Choral Choruses will help there. (To be published in the Autumn.)

There are some three part hymn books available that must be a great help to the less skilled player.

Barry Williams

Can I agree with bourdon's advice about repeated notes in the pedal, and add that unless it is the end of a phrase or there is a specific reason for doing so, that's what I was advised to do with inner parts as well. These are the things that laymen don't understand when they coerce pianists into playing hymns on the organ, sort of 'the notes are in the same place, what's the issue?' kind of thinking.

Can I also add Repton to the list of tunes impossible to play if you play all the parts on the manuals and then double the bass part.

I have vast experience of hearing top hymn players (not necessarily top recitalists!!) in this country, but to my shame, very little experience of hymn playing in other countries. Would anyone like to say whether the sort of conventions we're discussing apply abroad?

PS Barry, if you don't have Sibelius or other such programme, how/who is typsetting your forthcoming publication of choruses?

"PS Barry, if you don't have Sibelius or other such programme, how/who is typsetting your forthcoming publication of choruses?"

All music published by Organist Publications Limited is professionally type set.

These hymn tunes arrangements are merely for my own personal use.

The 150 Choral Choruses are not mine. They have been commissioned from someone of far greater skill and experience than me.

I have seen Sibelius. It looks wonderfully simple to use and produces splendid results. There are other music programmes, but none seems quite so flexible.

Barry Williams

Referring to repeating pedal notes, (or holding them) has anyone had to play 'Shine Jesus Shine'
Of course it wasnt really meant for the organ, but do you repeat that pedal note? Its good exercise for the left ankle !
Our church now uses Mission Praise (most of the time), so we often get some of the so called 'modern' hymns. Many are just not suitable for the organ !

Busk it!

The choir goes out of tune! Perish the thought. We often have an unaccompanied verse at church if appropriate, and (so far) the choir has always kept on pitch

Thank you very much indeed for your suggestions everyone and Bourdon for your pedalling suggestions - they will be most helpful.

I think I will have a go at The Day Thou Gavest and St Denio. Possibly also what I know as number 61, Be Thou My Vision but what I have come to understand is also called "Slane". I tend to think more in hymn numbers!

When I first looked at the organ book I wondered why the intervals on the bass clef were often so huge! It will probably mess with my head for a bit stopping my left hand from playing the bass but then the pedals once seemed impossible a couple of years ago. Now they are merely difficult!




I did that for the last wedding I played - it was for signing the register. I don't like the hymn but the arrangement I have is playable. I was however certain that no one in the congregration would know when to start singing after the introduction so my mum, who does some amateur church singing, kindly came along and stood next to me to lead the singing for that one.

My spirit still sinks whenever I see "From Heaven You Came" down on the schedule of hymns however.

So does mine!

Of all the tunes I'm asked to play, Repton is the one I most dread! Could be because I still don't dare to use the pedals in a service, but I do find it very difficult despite loving the tune.

True. Speaking from personal experience, I have very small hands, play on instruments that have heavy keys and in churches with very dry acoustic.

I haven't tried to solo the tenor. Once my teacher asked me to solo the tenor and invert it with the soprano--at sight. My brain got so confused.

I often solo the soprano line while playing the alto and tenor on a secondary manual.

One organist that I know has the habit of playing the Passion chorale with decreasing registration and dropping out completely on the last verse (with the choir singing a cappella). The effect was very moving.



To tie or not to tie repeated notes depends on the instrument, text, and acoustic. I agree with bourdon16 that it'd be a good idea to tie the two D-flat in his example; however, there are times when tying the repeated notes (in pedal or manuals) leads to sluggish rhythm and obscures the overall clarity.

Absolutely; play the building.

I have to do a kind of syncopated, dotted crotchet-quaver rhythm because the pedal action is not fast enough to cope with the bass line as written.

If you want a real brain twister, try this:

Bass in left hand (preferably on a manual of its own with 16' and 8' stops)
Tenor and alto in right hand
Soprano in pedals on a 4' stop (couple down if necessary)

This probably won't have much practical application though!


...and, more than anything else (IMHO), the congregation. In my book, when it comes to leading congregations, pulse and clarity are everything. I tend to tie or repeat depending on what best keeps the congregation moving. Needless to say, I never tie repeated notes in the melody.

As I think I have mentioned somewhere before (but probably not here) the organist who first sat me on an organ stool was a really old-school chap who religiously tied every repeated note in sight - even those in the melodies. This often made a nonsense of the tunes - nowhere more so than in "Christian, dost thou see them"!

I cannot - now - play Repton on the piano!

The pedal part is not difficult. The main problem in the fact that the anacrusis is a unison E flat and this gives the congregation less information about the rhythm if the organ is muddy or too small and far away. Also the first full bar is not a helpful texture from the point of view of giving a lead if there isn't a choir.

Once one is past bar 4 [which is easy with pedals] it's a breeze. A great hymn with which to practise registration!!!

"I cannot - now - play Repton on the piano!"

See New English Hymnal, number 353, which has a manuals only arrangment by the late Michael Fleming.

The 1960s Baptist Hymn Book has, at number 50, a rather nice harmony arrangement, but with one stretch of a tenth. Both work well on the piano or as manuals only versions.

Barry Williams

I think it's quite important to have the scale passage after "forgive our foolish ways" in Dear Lord and Father (Repton). The Mayhew books these days only seem to feature the extremely altered one...

That scale passage is essnetial to the character of the piece.

Is there anything good about the Mayhew books -apart from the fact that they fall apart quite quickly?

Barry Williams