Can anyone help me to analysis what 4-3 progression chords in F major should be?

Are you working towards Grade 5 Theory, where you may be asked to recognise a 1c-V progression? This is where the bass note stays the same (the dominant of the key) and the chords above it change from 6/4 to 5/3.

If that is so, in F Major, you will be looking for a bass note of C, with F and A above it, followed by bass note of C with E and G.

Or if your question relates to something else, please forgive me!

To me, the figures 4-3 would imply a suspension on the fourth note above the bass falling by step to the third.

Here's an example:


The F is the suspension, so the chord before the V chord can be anything as long as it has the F in it.

I bow to Sarah's superior knowledge!

Just been looking in my material for Grade 6 (Harmony in Practice) as work is a little quiet, and there in front of me is an explanation of suspension figurings, a classic example of which is the 4-3. So please ignore my earlier post!

I agree that 4-3 means suspension.

Looking at sarah123's music example, the chord label #IIb is incorrect. The chord G-B-D-F is a secondary dominant. The correct label should be V7b of V.

The chord #IIb would require a G#.

I'm pretty sured it's #IIb although it does have the seventh so should really be #IIb7. It's in F major, so II is G minor, sharpen the third to get g major, first inversion gives B natural in the bass and the prepared F is the seventh. That's what we were taught anyway.

I would call it a IIb#3 meaning the 3rd is raised a semitone. Sometimes the #3 is placed underneath the II. Sometimes just the # which on its own assumes the 3rd. The "V of V" nomenclature seems to be an American import.

I don't know whether it originated in America, or not, but "V of V" (or V/V) is pretty widely accepted in this country anyway, and is definitely the clearest way of indicating secondary dominant chords in roman numeral notation, imo.

Using "#II" to indicate V of V is definitely non-standard, and quite misleading, since it would seem to suggest a chord built on the sharpened supertonic (ie G#, in F major). If you really don't want to call it "V of V", at least "II(major)" would be clear as to what chord you actually mean (although this would be less clear than "V in V" in regard to harmonic function).

Oh well, I'm sure you're probably more knowledgable about theory and harmony than my AS teacher, so I'll take your word for it.

I'm afraid you were taught incorrectly. An accidental preceding a roman numeral indicates that the chord is built on an altered scale-degree.

In the key of F major:
ii = G minor triad
II = G major triad

#II would theoretically represent a G# major chord, given the uppercase roman numeral. Obviously, this would be an unlikely occurrence in the key of F major!



This is also correct. An arabic number always represents interval above the bass note, which is not necessarily the root of the chord.

Since the chromatically pitch, B-natural, is found in the bass, there is absolutely no need to include the figure #3 in the chord label. (#3 would mean D#, which is not in the chord!) The major triadic quality is conveyed already by the use of uppercase roman numeral II.

If you don't like the V of V nomenclature, you should label the chord as II7b instead.



I agree 100% with AndyL.

Actually, I find that there is quite a discrepancy between the nomenclature in the ABRSM theory publications and the nomenclature adopted by British academics in music. I often wish that the ABRSM would do a thorough revision of all of their theory publications so to use terms and labels that are more widely adopted by classical musicians worldwide.

We didn't use the extended roman numeral system (I think that's what it's called), so didn't have the distinction between upper (major) and lower case (minor) chords.

*goes to learn some proper theory*

This is an example why figured bass is more useful than roman numerals because in figured bass it would be
6
3

and this avoids confusion and you don't have to worry about whether its chord II or chord V of V.

Disagree. First of all, the correct figured bass should be
6
5

Given the harmonic rhythm of one chord per beat, the F in the alto should be accounted for in the figured bass. If you want to be really exact, however, you could show
6 6
3 5

We are dealing with a seventh chord on this beat.

Also, regardless of whether one labels the chord with roman numeral II or V/V, it is rather important to understand that the chord is a secondary dominant and that it belongs to the dominant key C major and not the tonic key F major. To be sure, figured bass has its advantage. Students who understand interval can come up with the correct figured bass here (seriously, you don't have to know much about harmony in order to do that); however, not all of them would have sufficient knowledge in harmony to understand what the seventh chord is doing exactly within this progression.

I was only looking at the 1st quaver beat. Also, all I meant is that in terms of labelling things its much less ambiguous as figured bass as you say you don't have to know much about theory to use it.

Thank for your explanation. However, I have an example which makes me confuse. Could you please explain for me why they indicated 4-3# progression in this example.


and can you help me to find out 4-3 progression in this exercise:

In your first example, there is no 4-3 suspension in the written parts. It is common for the continuo player to fill in harmonies which are not fully sounded in the written parts, in this case a 4-3 suspension over the dominant chord, which is a very common and idiomatic way to decorate cadences in baroque music.

In your second example, I would think the most likely place to use a 4-3 suspension would be in the last bar before the final chord (bar 8). The F in the Bb major chord on beat one would be suspended onto beat two where the bass moves to C, and would resolve to E on beat 3 (and then rise again to F on beat one of the next bar to complete the perfect cadence). A 4-3 suspension could also occur in bar 6 if you use a seventh chord on the first beat, but I think bar 8 would be more likely.

Agree 100%. Bar 8 is THE place to include the 4-3 suspension.

At first glance, it seems possible to include a 4-3 suspension in bar 6; however, this cannot work if you consider the voice leading in detail.
The suspended F on beat 2 would have to come from a ii7 chord on beat 1 (G-Bb-D-F). BUT, the ii7 chord cannot work because its seventh cannot be prepared.

According to the harmonic practice of this period, the seventh of the ii7 chord, F, would have to be prepared by the IV chord on beat 3 of bar 5. In other words, the note F would have to appear in the alto or tenor on beat 3 of bar 5. Then, it would appear again in the same voice on beat 1 of bar 6 to become the seventh of the ii7 chord. BUT, if you look at the given notes, there is already an F in the soprano on beat 3 of bar 5. Doubling the F in the alto or tenor would produce undesirable spacing and voice leading. Thus, it would be best not to double the F in the IV chord.

In short, it is not possible to set up the ii7 chord properly in bar 6, so there is no way to include a 4-3 suspension correctly in that bar.