I get so confused about which way round to transpose for instruments.

The question says 'transpose the following melody so that the instrument can play it at the same pitch as the following notes' I've transposed everything down, which i now think is wrong.

Is it right that if a Bb saxophone plays a C it actually sounds a major 9th lower (Bb) so if it was to play the notes as written everything would sound lower. So really I should transpose the piece a major 9th higher to sound the same pitch as written and a major 9th lower to return the piece to concert pitch?

Or am I getting completely mixed up here?

You are correct - for a Bb tenor saxophone (sopranos are also in Bb but an octave higher) you would transpose the concert pitch music up a major 9th to get the saxophone music and transpose the saxophone music down a major 9th to get concert pitch. It is confusing at first but you get used to it with practice.

With a few exceptions, the concert pitch music should always be lower than the transposed music. Exceptions to this - instruments which transpose up rather than down - are the piccolo, piccolo clarinet, piccolo trumpet, and some percussion.

This thread is helping me with my revision. Is a piccolo trumpet (which is new to me) the same as a natural trumpet? I have in my notes that the natural trumpet also transposes up. So a perfect 4th higher in F, a major 3rd higher in E, a minor 3rd higher in Eb and a major 2nd higher in D. If in B or Bb the natural trumpet transposes down a minor/major 2nd and a 4th lower for G. If in C there is no change. However, the horn transposes down an octave in C. Horns in E, Eb, Bb, A F and D are transposed down and a 9th lower for a Bb bass horn.

It is all so hard to remember but I guess when doing an exercise with a score it's easy to know if the transposition into concert pitch is right or wrong by comparing with the non-transposing instruments.

No, the piccolo is a modern (20th C?), short instrument with valves, pitched in D or Eb. The natural trumpet in D is twice as long. Consequently an E on the bottom line of the treble stave is an open note (which is all they have) on the natural trumpet but needs valves on the piccolo.

In Italian music (Verdi, also, IIRC, Rossini, but conductors will sometimes tell you otherwise) horns in A or Ab are usually basso* so minor or major tenth down. In German music these will always be alto.

* Usual term. I just heard of a reshaped tuba that goes by the name "bass horn".

Actually, the D/Eb trumpet isn't normally called a piccolo trumpet these days, but yes, it does sound higher than written. The term piccolo trumpet these days usually refers to the smallest trumpets in F, G, A and Bb. Here's a photo of my Selmer piccolo trumpet in F/G:



To confuse things, there is a trumpet in 'orchestral F' - it's the sort of trumpet that Brucker & Mahler wrote for, and twice as long the piccolo trumpet in F ... but also is written a fourth below concert pitch.

Thanks for your help on this!
Oh well, I'll have to do the whole question again (7 examples! LOL) and transpose them all up this time. Ah well, I could say I've practice transposing back into concert pitch now though lol.

Are there any tips on how to memorise the transposing intervals and the pitch ranges for instruments? I just find that impossible.

1) You can get a start on the transposing intervals by remembering that the name of the interval is the concert pitch that corresponds to a written C. To remember which way and how far an instrument transposes, you need to remember the order of the instruments in a set (e.g. Heckelphone, in C, baritone oboe, in C, cor anglais, in F, oboe d'amore, in A, oboe, in C, piccolo Heckelphone, in F).

2) On brass and most woodwind instruments, there is no theoretical upper limit and the practical upper limit is the player. A good orchestration book will give you several upper limits that you can expect from players in particular categories; Blatter's "Instrumentation and orchestration" has categories "elementary", "high school" and "professional". Lower limits of normal sounds are set by the instrument, but even this is not simple. Some examples: most members of the oboe family have B below middle C as their lowest written note, but the oboe and the Heckelphone have Bb; the theoretical lowest note of three-valve trumpets is F# at the bottom of the bass clef, but the F# an octave higher is a practical limit in a normal part, because the notes between it and C space bass clef are missing; the lowest note (written) of most saxophones is Bb below middle C, but most baritone saxes have an extra note, an A that transposes to the C below bass clef; horns come in many different valve configurations, on most of which the practical bottom limit is always the player; double basses (which transpose down an octave) come in varieties, E below bass clef being standard for a four-string, B for a five-string* and C for a four-string with extension and long fourth string.

* In the US it seems to be more usual to tune the fifth string to C.

If you are composing for particular players and are intending to use the limits, ask them about their comfortable range and any special features of the instrument that they will be using.

Thank you Brian and Kenm for your in depth knowledge

If it's any help muse I have just been doing an orchestral analysis question from Grade 8 Paper C 2006, and I had no idea how far to transpose an English Horn without looking it up. I resisted and studied the harmony created by the other more obvious instruments very carefully. I had to get it right to be able to identify an interval between the Viola and the English Horn. I guessed in the end that it transposed down a perfect 5th because it made sense. I was very pleased to have got it right when I checked the answers. I relied on applying general musical knowledge and not my memory - which is not very reliable

Could I just add a quick question? For Grade 5 are we also told what the interval is for transposition? In the past papers I have, it is always stated but wondered if it is necessary to learn the various intervals too?

I'm not really addressing this question, because I don't know about specific exams, but it reminds me of a practical point.

It's certainly necessary to know the interval if you are told to produce a part for a given instrument, because of the families in which members transpose to different octaves, but the key is easy if you know intervals between notes.

To illustrate both points, the Bb clarinet transposes down a tone, because the interval from any C to the Bb immediately below it is always a tone (a major second). However, the bass clarinet in Bb is twice as long as the usual Bb clarinet, so the interval is a major ninth (a major second + a perfect octave).

If you are doing a transposition exercise in which a specific instrument is not mentioned, then I would expect the interval to be specified fully, because of the octave question.

It can sometimes be useful to bear in mind that the key of a transposing instrument is not an inherent characteristic of the mechanism; it is a convention for the convenience of players who wish to play more than one member of family of instruments of different sizes but a consistent fingering system. Nowadays, horn and trumpet players need to be able to play from parts for horns of different length to the one they own, so they learn to transpose at sight, but good players on other instruments often become expert at transposition for practical convenience. Three examples:

1 Jazz players of saxophone, trumpet or clarinet need to be able to play concert pitch parts on whatever instrument they happen to be using, so as to work from the same part (tune and chords) as everyone else;

2 Orchestral clarinet players own a pair of instruments in Bb and A, but faced with a part including a short passage for the other instrument will often transpose it rather than putting down a warm instrument and picking up a cold one;

3 Very few bass clarinet players own one of the rare instruments in A, for which Wagner and a few other composers wrote at one time. Given one of these parts, the player will play it on his Bb instrument. The extra key, giving a written bottom Eb on all orchestral bass clarinets, was added specifically for these parts.

For grade 5 you don't need to learn transposition intervals for instruments. As you said, you are told the interval and direction of transposition at this grade. It's a bit like free points really... they tell you the answer...

So the player transposes at sight up to the written pitch whilst reading from parts at concert pitch?

And bass clarinet players get quite upset if handed a bass clef in A part (especially if, as happened to me the 1st time I encountered it, it is 7:30 pm on a Friday evening and they are 1/2 asleep). There are some conflicting conventions on bass cl writing when going between bass and treble clef which can leave you playing an octave too high or low if not paying attention!

Yes, that's right.
At our church most weeks there are two clarinets, a cornet and a piano (well, a keyboard). So the three of us Bb instruments have to sight transpose, often very fast and into 4 or 5 sharps, because the pianist is crazy and likes to play the fast hymns very fast. I had only been playing clarinet for a year when I started playing at church, but I picked it up very fast and can now do it almost without thinking. This is helpful, especially when I'm half asleep if I haven't had much sleep due to a late night...

So for an exam:

If I had to find the transposing interval of a Clarinet in A I would count up from A to C which is a 3rd. And a C would be from the minor key so Clarinet in A would sound a minor 3rd lower than concert pitch?

If I had to find a transposing interval of a French horn in F I would count up from F to C which is a 5th. And C is in both keys so its perfect, so its a perfect 5th lower?

With lower instruments I would have to think of the interval as being double.

Treble recorder, Double bass and classical guitar all sound an octave lower. Descant is an octave higher.

Flute, oboe, bassoon, tenor/bass trombone, timpani, all strings in C.

general rule for composition in exam is go no lower or higher than one ledger line, or the highest or lowest note in the example. Unless it is a treble recorder or a tenor voice, where no lower than lowest space and lowest line respectively. I probably won't even touch the ledger lines.

Phew....
I've got my exam tomorrow (3 weeks earlier than I thought) I am really scared. Doing lots of revising today.

That's right.
What exam are you doing?

I'm doing grade 7 and I'm so scared. Its with trinity and they've given me a date 3 weeks earlier than I expected (the dates are not the same as the practical exam) so I cramming write now. I really hope I do ok.

you don't need to know about guitar or recorders for AB.
Just standard orchestral instruments

Grade 7 theory? Everyone does the theory exam at the same time. The date of the theory exam would have been known at the time of entry. Good luck!