I'm trying to learn some pieces which aren't in a tutor book, so there are no fingerings written in. Is there a system to working out fingerings or is it trial and error?

(I've been learning a year and the pieces are probably about Grade 1 level)

I'm sure someone will come up with better advice but the two main ideas are to move your hands as little as possible and not to play two adjacent notes with the same fingers if the notes are supposed to be slurred.

You need to think about where to turn your thumb under so you have enough fingers for a particular phrase.

Sometimes looking at chord fingerings first makes it easier to see what fingers you should be using on the preceeding notes.

It's unusual for pieces of this level to have no fingering at all - does it give you a starting point, or are you properly left to work it out.

Playing the piano is all about different hand positions and moving them around and manipulating them. So if you've been left to work it out:

first look at the first bar or phrase, where is the highest and lowest point, can you cover this with one hand if so fine work out which the most logical finger is to start on, if not are there any familiar patterns like arpeggios in there, in which case standard arpeggio fingering may be possible. If it is a longer phrase it may follow a scale pattern or meander around it, in which case does your hand need to change to a new position, as kerioboe says, do you need to pivot on your thumb, either under or over.

Take it bar or phrase at a time and mark in the fingers to start on and when your hand needs to change finger position. you should then be able to build it up from there.

It does become second nature after a while, but can be a bit daunting when faced with a whole piece.

Which piece is it, can we help at all?

Good luck

Hi Skylark, sometimes I find it can be efficient to work backwards - ie, starting with something that is "non-negotiable" in terms of the fingers you need to use to play it, then working out the best path to get there. Hope this makes sense...it's friday night, and a glass of wine (ok, maybe 2) has been taken...

It's an old secondhand book, pub 1922, so it's probably unlikely that anyone would have it - it's Twelve Short and Easy Pieces by Allan Hoskin. In fact that must mean it's out of copyright - could I scan it and post it

I'm just on my way out now, but I'll study all the advice later. Thanks

I normally look first for the more tricky bits of the piece and work out the fingers for that bit and then go from there.

I'll probably revise the fingers several times before I find something that works for me. Then what usually happens is that I'll take my book down to mom's to show off my new piece I'm learning and she rubs out all of my painstaking fingering work and puts in a much better fingering system in the space of about 30 seconds

Lois

Completely agree with this!

If you mean it's from a hymnbook or something like that than just follow the notes on the staff, i mean start from middle C position and look at the lines and count the number of keys away from middle C position they are, and there might be a key signature to help you out, such as G major F minor etc. etc.

Im sorry if im missing something, but how does that help you in any way to work out the fingering of it?

Glass or two of wine notwithstanding, that is something I do myself and encourage my pupils to do a lot.

I'm a little obsessive and pedantic about fingerings, and am often appalled at how some people-including teachers-scrawl illegibly all over a page like a two year old, sometimes making it difficult to see the notes at all. I seldom learn a piece without writing them out, and was interested to see that some folk do them backwards. Have'nt tried that. Economy is the general rule and always looking to what's coming next.

Are you one of the "life starts from middle C brigade". I teach a few of those.

But, seriously, fingerings should always be comfortable and sensible. At a grade 1 level you shouldn't need intricate fingering, and you could for example find the highest note in the right hand, and then possibly work backwards from there - maybe finger 5 would go on the highest note, and so on. It can be trial and error even for the experienced among us.

Yes I'm trying the suggestions that have been made, but as you and others have said, it doesn't always come right. It's a good game though , and I've got to start sooner or later. Thanks for all the suggestions, much appreciated

With some of the accompaniments I've got for the big day at Dyrham, I'll be leaving quite a few fingerings as trial and error for the performance...

You've given me an idea... if I haven't got it worked out by then, I'll bring it down with me for some of you pianists to have a look at


Thinking about this, how do pianists sight read an unknown piece? I've seen mwl1 sightread unknown pieces and I thought he was very clever to get all the right notes in the right order but that was before it occurred to me that you'd also need to get the fingerings right as well Pianists... respect

yeah, we're all genius's


Honestly it does get less daunting, and all instruments have their difficulties, I'm sat here listening to daughter no 2 trying to pitch a piece on her violin that is at the top end of her level, it's not painful as such, but hopefully will sound better soon

I think it's just familiarity with the instrument and looking at the music by shape rather than as individual notes. After a while you just know that a certain chord will probably be easiest to play with certain fingers. I also think you need to look ahead a lot as you know when to put your thumb under by which notes (and how many notes) are coming next. (But this is a bit similar to a clarinet where you sometimes you choose alternative fingerings depending on what is coming next).

In the case of sightreading, I never look at any fingering indications. I just go with what feels natural. In an exam situation there isn't time anyway. After checking key signature, tempo, dynamics, any obviously difficult bars, rits & ralls, and the ending, the time has run out and the examiner just wants to hear it.

I think that fingering comes naturally with experience given a solid basis of correct scale & arpeggio fingers.

For what it's worth, I try to sight read at least an hour a week - music from the public library, new pieces from the choir repertoire, second hand pieces, in fact anything I can lay my hands on. If I am in difficulties with a section of music then I try first to use any fingering indicated and, if that doesn't cure the problem, then I experiment with different fingering.

Thanks for all your advice - it sounds like it's something that comes with experience. The good news is that I took the piece to my piano teacher today - I'd worked out the melody line for the first page and it was all correct So we looked at the harmony part, and he talked me through it - the fingerings he showed me were very neat and I think I'll be able to work out the rest. Then I asked him to play it through for me - it sounded lovely and I'm going to enjoy learning to play it

Good!

OK, I truely must have gotten the wrong idea then.

I've hardly look at fingerings. I've mostly taught myself and I've often asked teachers to teach me strict with fingerings and stuff but they just laugh and say I already know how to do it. LOL.

Usually I just play through the pieces and if I get stuck on a certain bit where my fingers feel awkward or I can't get to the note quick enough, I rework and rework the fingering until its comfortable, easy to remember and quick. If its comfortable but not easy to remember, I won't, so I tend to change it. Scales and chords tend to help with fingering.

I usually do not play black keys with the thumb (Unless there is a chord in the right hand with the bottom note on a black key, or its otherwise unavoidable) thats the only real rule I have.