Thanks vectistim. I know I'll have to do spectacularly well to qualify for any PhD course. At the moment I'm trying to tell myself that if I'm not capable of a first, or not capable of putting the work in for a first, then I wouldn't be capable of a PhD anyway. Somehow that's not too comforting though.

I don't know what area of study I'm particularly interested in, and that's the thing I'm most worried about at the moment. Should I know already? I haven't been thinking about it long enough, I always used to tell myself I had plenty of time to think about the future. I'm wondering now if I've left it too late to start thinking and whether most Arts/Humanities postgrads figured out what they were most interested in really early on in their university career...

I'm looking at that link now, thank you.

Is the basic idea that you apply with a proposal for a place on a PhD course in a particular university, then apply for funding from that university, or is that just completely wrong?

ETA thanks Babybird, I think our posts crossed. I'll have a look at that forum now.

I think to know the subject is enough at this stage, I certainly didn't know the subject of my MSc or PhD when I was doing my UG degree!

As far as funding goes it is usually competitive but you can apply for funding at the same time as your application. It can help to do your MA/MSc at the same institution since you then know your supervisor and you 'are in the system' so to speak to be made aware of funding opportunities.

Disclaimer - what I say may be nonsense for non science

To get a funded place you would really require a first but it you pay your own fees maybe not

I don't think you'll necessarily need a first, but field-depending you might well need a Master's degree as well as your BA. It all varies with different fields, tbh.

We seem to be short of Arts people replying to this.
This is the scenario of how I went about it:
End of November I saw a funded one advertised which broadly fitted with my existing knowledge/experience, so I asked for more information and was asked to send in my CV, I then heard nothing until February when they suddenly said they were considering offering it to me and could I send in a brief proposal and an application form, which I sent them about the end of February. After some chasing of references I received an offer letter beginning of April to start two weeks later! (So I pushed that back slightly and started end of April/beginning of May)

So in my instance I was applying for an advertised PhD in a broadish research area where they already had funding arranged. It certainly helped that I had relevant(ish) work experience and a relevant(ish) MSc.
(So seven months into it what I am doing bears very little relationship to what was on that proposal)

Where are you doing your BA? Do you have a tutor (academic or pastoral) you can ask about this?

I'll post a reply later (may not be until Friday...).

The set up and application process is different in the Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences, compared to what it is for Sciences, Maths, Engineering etc. A lot of what's been said by those of you replying is perfectly correct for your disciplines, but a lot of it doesn't apply to Lucky.

I will post a full reply at some point this week, but I'm a bit swamped with work at the moment for a Thursday deadline.

Thanks everyone! I've been out all day (in the library, showing willing. ) so haven't had a chance to reply, but I really appreciate all the advice I've been given so far. Flossie, I'd really appreciate any info you can give me, whenever you find time.

I will try and get enough courage to ask my tutor about it, but I'm a bit scared she'll laugh at me and tell me I'm nowhere near clever enough... Or expect me to have a proposal already thought out. She probably wouldn't, just out of professionalism, but I'm irrationally afraid of it anyway. I have a pastoral supervisor too, but I rarely see her, and I've never exchanged more than three words with her at any meeting, since she implied I was unthinking and unoriginal for choosing to study Victorian Literature instead of American literature, which she taught. I'll ask her about it as a last resort though!

Yep, us scientists have it easy. I just applied for a project... no proposal to write!

Now I've done a little bit of department work which was no problem, now today there is a post-grad open day and for some reason the central university bean counters need to see my passport[1] as proof I'm eligible to work in the country. Evidently NI card and photo driving licence (which gives England as place of birth) is not sufficient.

[1] Fortunately I do have a passport, but its at home, but as an alternative they will accept: birth certificate, NI card and P60 - but we're students - so P60?!

I hope noone ever asks for my birth certificate, I don't think I've ever seen it

As for a P60....

Hi lucky,

Sorry for being so slow getting back to you on this. I’m not surprised that you’re considering taking this route. From the discussion we had on the train after the Leeds concert it is clear that you have the intellectual ability, spark and flair for your subject which are required for an academic career. Whether you’ll get there or not is another matter, as it often requires luck as well as ability and commitment.

*What I am saying here is only applicable to Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences*
**It also only applies to ‘home’ i.e. U.K students**

For Arts and Humanities or Social Science subjects, there are three routes into doctoral study (PhD in most places, or DPhil if Oxon).

A key thing to bear in mind is that if you don’t try for a place, you are guaranteed not to get one. If you do try, you have to be aware that it can be very competitive – but there is often a certain amount of luck involved, so trying and not getting a place does not automatically imply that you aren’t good enough.

Funded places do tend to be very competitive. The ‘minimum requirement’ is generally a 2.1 (or expected 2.1), but realistically you need to have a 1st (or be in a position where it is possible you will get one) if you’re after research council funding, unless you already have a Masters. However, some people do occasionally get funding with a 2.1 - it's a case if if you don't try, you don't get.

It is worth talking to your department about your interest in postgrad study. You’re in a well-established research department and they will be able to support you through the application process. Furthermore, most academics really enjoy teaching students who they know are interested in learning and want to go further with the subject – so discussing your plans can be good for both parties.

1) via a Research Council studentship
This involves a 1 year Masters and a 3 year PhD. The awards can only be held in departments which are recognised by the relevant research council (AHRC for Arts and Humanities and ESRC for Social Sciences).

The AHRC has separate award schemes for Maters and PhD level study, but you cannot apply for PhD funding unless you have or are currently doing a Masters. I’m not sure whether you have to do an ‘approved’ Masters or not – you may need a certain amount of research and skills training in your Masters for it to count for your PhD application (recognised departments would be able to advise on this). The AHRC offers three PhD funding scheme: Block grants, Studentship competition and Collaborative doctoral scheme (CASE). For further info have a look at these:

http://www.ahrc.ac.uk/FundingOpportunities...es/default.aspx

http://www.ahrc.ac.uk/FundingOpportunities...testudents.aspx

The ESRC offers 1+3 studentships (i.e. a 1 year Masters linked to a 3 year PhD) to certain departments on a quota basis, plus there are a small number of 1+3 and +3 studentships available through their open competition. To be eligible for a +3 studentship you must have done, or be in the process of completing, an ESRC recognised research methods Masters (they have a list of approved courses on their website) unless you can demonstrate an equivalent level of research training. 1+3 studentships can only be held in departments which have an approved Masters course. Further info at:

http://www.esrc.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/oppor...uate/Index.aspx

For both of the above schemes you choose the area you want to study and design your own PhD proposal (but it’s a good idea to get input from your proposed supervisor). A good starting point is to identify possible departments and a list of potential supervisors. You will want to start making enquiries in Sept/Oct because although the research council deadlines are in the spring a lot of unis have earlier deadlines for students who wish to apply for funding (some may be as early as Dec/Jan). A lot of places have a nominated post grad admissions tutor but I personally would recommend contacting potential supervisors directly. You need to be confident that you will get on okay with the supervisor and will enjoy working with them, and the only way of doing this is to talk to them.

For collaborative (CASE) studentship the proposals are designed jointly by the department and external (collaborating) partner. They then advertise the studentship and people apply for the pre-defined project. These studentships are not as common in the Arts and Humanities as they are in other subject areas (and aren’t very plentiful in Social Science ones either – it’s much easier for the sciences etc to attract industry and private sector collaborators).

2) via a University studentship
These vary enormously between universities and departments, so it really is a case of asking about possibilities in the departments you consider. Competition varies as do entry requirements – you can sometimes get a funded place without a Masters, but no guarantee. Again it's worth starting off by looking for the supervisor you want.

3) Self funded.
From an academic point of view all you would need for this is a 2.1 degree (some places will actually take students with a high 2.2), but you would also need either money or someone who can support you financially. Do not make the mistake of thinking you can get a paid job to cover your expenses – you won’t have time to get the PhD done.

Good luck with it. I'm happy to help if I can.

Ah thank you so much! I had somehow missed that reply! There's a lot of information there, I really appreciate it. I'll have a read through and a think about it this week. Every time I think about it I get all panicked and scared, and suddenly remember all the set-backs I've ever had in my academic life... I'm not sure if that's a very good sign!

Thanks again! I'll feel a lot better knowing the basic system, before starting to think about areas of study and proposals and things.

This is actually very common amongst the stronger students in Arts/Humanities/Social Sciences - so it probably is a good sign.

We're trained to be critical thinkers in terms of our academic work, and that rubs off onto how we analyse and appraise ourselves as well. It's very easy to see all the things you're not quite happy with in your work, and completely lose sight of everything that's good about it and about your achievements. I'm not at all concerned about you feeling unconfident about your work etc, because that actually shows you have an awareness of what you're aiming towards. I'd be much more concerned if you were absolutely brimming with confidence and thought your work was wonderful!

I think also you don't have to have a first if you are older. I am a mature student and have a 2:1. When I went to university firsts really were few and far between (no criticism of younger students implied here!)

And sciences

This thread's gone a bit quite again.

How are people getting on?

I seem to be having lots of wild goose chases looking for references.

Clearly we are all too busy working on our respective projects.....

NOT!

It's a bit like this....

I quite like that tousled just-got-up look.... *whistles*

I'm guilty of putting mugs of hot drink in the same place as in the picture. Did nearly cover my keyboard in tea yesterday though (the drink that is, not the meal).

I hate essays.

This is why Maths is The Best Subject, no essays!

I think I'd prefer the essays to the maths. Good job I'm doing an essay subject!

How does one decide to do a PhD? I used to think that it was a bit like being talent-spotted - at some point during your penultimate or final year your tutor would take you aside and say "have you thought about doing a PhD?", assuming they thought you were good enough. My tutors presumably didn't think so, seeing as they never asked me. For my part, I was so worried about my abject failure to get work experience during my long vacations (to say nothing of the leave of absence following my disastrous Erasmus exchange) that I was desperate to get out of academia and prove that I could hack it in a commercial environment rather than spend 3-4 years making myself even more other-worldly. That said, I was amazed - and still am - by the attitude of those students who said that the best thing about doing a PhD was not having to look for a job for the forseeable future. Were they joking? I still don't know.

In the event it took me so long (nearly 2 years) to land a proper job that lasted more than a matter of weeks, I might just as well have done a PhD. Worse, I became dissatisfied with the job (at a certain weather-related government agency) and longed to move to a new position. But the only way I could move was by applying for an internal vacancy, and the majority of those advertised specified "must have a PhD or equivalent experience". I was never able to find out what precisely counted as equivalent experience, but I always assumed I didn't have it. As far as I could tell, the equivalent experience bit could be and had been interpreted as anything from "has been in scientific employment for 3-4 years since completing degree" to "carried out research but did not submit". I posed the question once in an online Q&A sessions with the head of HR who said I'd have to ask my divisional manager for clarification. If the definition of "equivalence to a PhD" is going to vary between divisions, that's hardly going to aid career progression. Someone else suggested that it probably had something to do with a publication record. But I'm sure I've heard of PhD graduates who haven't published anything apart from their thesis (and that only through a vanity publishers). Then what would I know - you could list my research skills on the back of a postage stamp....

Since I got fired in May I've had various people suggesting I do a PhD, invariably people who haven't done one themselves, which says it all really. To which my typical response is that I'm not at all keen on the the mature PhD option, seeing as my research skills were branded as non-existent by the line manager who brought about my dismissal; of course there are those who will say that's just her opinion and I should go all out to prove her wrong but ... I don't know - right now I just think I'd prefer a job I could do straight away. And the typical counter-response was "oh, I'd have thought you'd find university a less pressured environment". What, with the RAE and all?! And that's before you get on to the subject of how I could afford to pay my mortgage on a PhD studentship....

It's really not that bad, you know

How I decided to do a PhD? I just knew that that was what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to work in science, and that a PhD was the way to go about it. No one told me that I should do it, it's just what I wanted to do
Personally, I had no publications before my PhD, and I'll only have one first author one after it. Seems pretty normal to me in my field.

My lab skills were pretty rubbish before my PhD. 3 years on and they're a lot better. Noone is going to expect you to be a brilliant researcher when you start. It's something you learn.

If you don't want to do a PhD, then don't. If working on something very specialised for several years is your worst nightmare, then a PhD is probably a bad idea.
If you do want to do a PhD, at least give yourself a chance. You might well have the skills you need.

The main reason I carried on after the undergrad degree was that I liked my subject (maths) and wanted to learn more about it, it was more of a love of the subject than whether it would get me A Good Job. Partly this was because I was rubbish at maths at school and I had to work a lot harder at college to avoid failing it, so I begin to get better as I worked more at it!

I had some encouragement from lecturer's at my university (otherwise I'd have been doing a secondary PGCE by now-lucky escape!). Not having the benefit of rich parents the only way I could afford it was by working hard and getting a scholarship, for which a first was needed. So I did an MSc first and then started a PhD. I highly doubt I would have done a PhD if I had to fund it myself (I just couldn't afford it), actually I probably couldn't even afford to do an undergraduate degree alone nowadays! And I only did my UG a couple of years back.

It would be useful to speak to/email a postgrad doing whatever subject you are interested in since then you will find out what they do and it could help you decide if you would like to do it too.

Nobody asked me if I wanted to do a PhD. I decided it myself. In my experience, it's pretty unusual for someone to be explicitly asked to do a PhD - generally it's a case of the cohort of undergrads being made aware in general terms that some of them may want to consider the option. The fact that you weren't explicitly asked by a tutor if you wanted to do a PhD does NOT mean that they thought you weren't good enough.

In my experience the students to do a PhD to avoid getting a job are a very, very small minority (and are often the ones who struggle to complete) - it's more common among master's students.


Part of doing a PhD is learning the research skills involved, and the student's department or university should provide them with the necessary training. You are not expected to have all the skills before you start. In my department, a large part of the 1st year of a PhD is focused on research training - except for those students who have done a research training year already as part of a masters (which is probably only 30% of students). You would not be expected to have publications before you started, but it is worthwhile trying to write 1 or 2 papers at the same time as your thesis because this helps for getting jobs afterwards (even if the papers aren't actually published yet when you finish, you can put them down as 'submitted', 'under review' or 'forthcoming'). Most people now organise their thesis in a manner which allows chapters to be turned into stand-alone papers - but people are often still working on these 2-3 years after they submit the actual thesis. It is very unusual now for a thesis to be published.

I suspect that if we sat down together and brainstormed all your research skills you'd find you have a lot more than you think.

I did my bachelors with the OU, and started my PhD when I was 28. I know lots of people doing PhDs who are older than me, so age really doesn't matter. The extra bit of maturity and life experience can be helpful for the PhD.

A key thing is to do a PhD because you want to - and you're really the only person who can tell if this is the case.

If you do a PhD you need to be able to work independently, but there are people to help and support you when needed. Some people find the PhD a very isolating process - especially if they are of the really sociable type that needs to be continually engaged with, and entertained by, other people - but from what I've seen of you on here I think you're probably pretty self-reliant and don't need to continually have people buzzing round you (in fact my impression is that you may be best working in an environment where you can be yourself, have your own time and space when you need it and don't have to continually be surrounded by other people).

I started my PhD approx 13 years after graduating! I was a bit bored with my job and knew there were things I wanted to investigate in more depth but that I never got a chance to. I also found out that my job contract would pay me to take three years "off" to do a PhD. Very lucky I know. I put together a proposal and went to two universities I was interested in and I was accepted. I think it helped a lot that I had funding already but I was also told that I had a very clear proposal - which I was surprised at. Apparently a lot of people give it a go without really thinking about what they want to do... I would suggest asking around and getting tips on how to present a research proposal (mine was about 5 pages) before approaching an individual supervisor.

Age really should not be an issue. Ok, I started when I was 21 (straight after my BSc), but everyone in my research group is older than me, even if it is just by a year or two.
Quite often when I go on interdisciplinary training courses I feel really, really young compared to everyone else there

Would anyone mind outlining a typical day in the life of a PhD student? (That is, if such a thing exists).

While I was experimenting:

- Get to uni for 8
- Go into the lab, set up cells and load them (takes 40 minutes). Meanwhile set up the lab...
- Experiment til midday-ish
- have lunch while more cells are loading...
- experiment for a couple of hours in the afternoon...
- sort out cell cultures in the afternoon if need be
- go home around 5.


You don't do science stuff though, do you? Now that I'm writing, it's more like...

- Get to uni for 7:30
- Have breakfast
- Stare at screen
- Have lunch
- Stare at screen
- Go home
- Feel guilty for not having done enough work

Day in the life of an applied maths PhD student

Arrive at office for 0830
Make coffee
0845 Sit at desk
Check emails
Alternate reading/writing computer program/ playing with equations/ typesetting technical reports/ typesetting slides for presentations
Possibly attend talks by outside speaker
1200-1245 eat lunch at desk while checking abrsm forums working
1245 - 1600 attempt to find why computer code not working!
1600 get up from desk, leave office

By typeset I mean write with a computer program, not using microsoft equation editor (which is big waste of time), in fact I don't even use windows so not office products! For anyone curious I use this

On rare occasions the mathematicians are allowed outside for the day

I don't think there really is a 'typical' for me because it depends on what I'm doing.

If I've not got teaching or anything then I'll usually start around 9:30-10am because this means I miss the morning rush. If I'm teaching at 9am then I need to be in by 8:40 if I'm teaching on the same site as the department - if I'm teaching elsewhere it can be up to 25 minutes walk away which means coming in earlier to get stuff from the office. My teaching timetable is a bit erratic. I'm towards the end of writing up which is when the hours really kick in so I'll often work until around 6:30-7pm (with working lunch and coffee breaks) and then unless I have orchestra or something I'll go home, get my car and come back in because I write best in the evenings. When I say 'work' that isn't solid writing - although it maybe should be.

When I was doing fieldwork my schedule was very erratic because I'd have fieldwork at different times of day in different places and it wouldn't be the same from one week to the next.

In my first year it was (unless I was teaching) more like come in for 10:30-11, show may face at coffee (11-11:30), do a bit of work, wander into town for lunch (1-1:45), think about doing some more work, show my face at afternoon coffee (3:45-4:15 or 4:30), decide that I really must do some work, go home around 6-7pm. Come back in the evening if I was close to a deadline.

I have been asked if I want to do a PhD, though I suspect that's because my department has a real shortage of good postgraduate students. Most of my year will do the MEng degree, and then most of us will go straight into work. "Why do a PhD when you can go and get a job without any trouble" being the general attitude. I think the fact that our first degree takes 5 years, most of us go on placement (many of which result in job offers), and that starting salaries for Chemical Engineers are pretty good helps with this.

So it does happen. My boyfriend gets asked if he'd consider doing a PhD even more, but he has a more obviously enquiring mind than I do.

I always thought I'd quite like to do a PhD, myself, but now I'm out working, I'm finding I enjoy being a plant-based engineer much more than I had anticipated. I don't want to go back and do my final year (rather fed up of being poor, and dealing with the chaos and politics that are endemic in my department) let along commit myself to another 3 years of study.

That said, I really enjoy research, its just universities I'm not so fond of. Goodness knows what I'll decide on next year!

Being poor whilst doing a PhD might not be as much of an issue for you... I don't know what chemical engineering is like, but I've met electrical engineers who had tax free stipends of £20k

I'm reading about my external examiner

I wonder if I ought to do that. I've met him at conferences and things, so I kind of know who he is and what he does, and I wrote some stuff for a book he edited.

I was actually coming on to this thread to rant. I hate arc-map. I've spent my whole day going in circles with it and have discovered that the scales it's coming up with for the scale bar are nonsense. It's tried telling me that my study area is 240,000 miles wide, when 20 would have probably been about right. I'm now worried that I'm going to have to re-do all the maps with my data and they took weeks the first time. I hadn't realised that there was a problem before because the scale had seemed sensible on all of them.

I've never met my external so reading seemed like a good option

That sounds like a nightmare, Flossie Hope you get it sorted

240,000 miles would be an impressive study area...

Thanks. I'd been thinking that the end of the thesis was maybe coming in to sight, but it seems it was maybe a false dawn.

I came in today thinking that I wouldn't need to do anymore maps after about 11am this morning...

Don't tell me to ask my supervisor, she doesn't know how to use arc-map...

Is there anyone else around that can help?

When is our final deadline/when were you hoping to submit by? Hope it doesn't delay anything too much

I've emailed a couple of people to see if they can help, and will try pouncing on peole at afternoon coffee. There's no point asking the IT staff because they don't have the specialist knowledge (they can get bits of software to work, but can't do the advanced data procedures for everything).

I know what you mean about the IT staff. For "how does this data analysis software work"- questions it's always post docs and other students that I ask

Do you have morning and afternoon coffee times all at the same time? that sounds fun

Thanks for those replies! No social scientists/linguists around though?

Problem sorted.

The georeferencing system the actual data is based on uses metres, and for some reason arc map had decided to change these to kilometres in the layer properties even though it hasn't done so before - with the result that the scale bar was out by a factor of 1,000. I've now changed the properties back to metres and the scale bar now matches all the other maps I'd done.

I'm very relieved.

Are you still thinking of doing one in France? In which case I could provide some information if you have specific questions as it is a very different system to the UK. (And very cheap).

I think for Chem Eng PhD funding of £13-18k is more usual (£18k being veryvery good, and fairly uncommon).

I'm living off that amount this year quite happily, so it'd be okay... except that all my friends would be off on starting salaries between £25 and £35k...

What's a £15k pay gap between friends?



(The bigger problem is obtaining good equipment, and getting done within the 3 years you're funded for. Once you're over that 3 years, most people get zilch.)

Not quite a £15k pay gap since people with real jobs have to pay tax on earnings and council tax! The stipend is tax free and students don't pay council tax.

Oh yes, I know! So much cheaper than in the UK, but seemingly less funding opportunities. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places...?

There are a few "bourses au mérite" but the best thing to aim for is a job as an ATER (a reduced hours teaching job in a university). You can be an ATER for three years (four if you have the Agrégation). To be honest, though, I'm not sure that a doctorat is much use unless you are looking to go into teaching (which I think you said you weren't).

What he said

The only being funded for 3 years thing is common to most fields, I believe...

Gah

My thesis isn't coming along because I have no motivation to do it whatsoever. As far as I am concerned, I'll do a bad job of it anyhow. I'll never get a job. My skills are virtually non existent. If I apply for a postdoc all the other applicants would be preferable to me. They've probably all presented at ten conferences or something. I haven't. I have no CV because I don't know what to write in it. I have no interview skills and would make myself look entirely stupid if I did actually have an interview.
My stipend ran out months ago and I'm living off my parents. Despite them paying me a very generous amount I still end up overdrawn because by budgeting skills are non-existent.

I'm useless