My son has just started secondary school. He plays trumpet and is very keen to join an orchestra, but music is not his big passion, just something he enjoys.

He really wants to play rugby and went to the rugby club on Monday, only to discover that there was also rugby club on Thursday, and he is under the impression that he has to go to both. I had initially said he could only go to one after school club because of needing to do his homework and play his trumpet a bit (although we on pretty much just keeping that ticking over whilst he gets used to secondary school). However he is so keen on the rugby that I said he could try going twice until half term and see how it was going. If he gets to play in a match on a Saturday that will clash with choir, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

He has now discovered that orchestra is after school on a Thursday. There are other bands he could join but he is only interested in the orchestra, and he was in tears tonight about the dilemma.

Add to this a phonecall this evening from the head of music who wants to put him onto their music enrichment programme, where he joins a small chamber type group with coaching from a professional musician. He has to see the said musician about it tomorrow - in the middle of his rugby lesson (as distinct from rugby club). Rather than seeing this as a wonderful opportunity he just sees it as more pressure to choose. I also suspect that, from what the head of music said, this group happens during school time on a Thursday afternoon i.e. during his games lesson.


Now I know that both sport and music require a level of commitment, but I don't think he should have to choose between them 8 days into his first year at school. I would rather he did the music (much less dangerous!) and even he admits he is better at music but he loves sport too.

I'm at a loss to how to react or even what to say to him.
Words of advice from those who have trod this path (or even those who haven't!) before much appreciated

This happens so often with sport and music, though many children enjoy both. Ideally, he wouldn't have to choose between them, but in practice teachers tend to run clubs on a night which suits them, which is only fair for extra-curricular things.

Is there another orchestra he could join, perhaps a music centre one? Sometimes these are on a weeknight evening, and just maybe wouldn't clash with rugby? Orchestral music isn't everything, and failing that I think I'd try to encourage him to join a school band. He will probably have more notes to play in a band than an orchestra (which tends to be very strings dominated) anyway, and there's plenty of time to join an orchestra later if that really does become his passion.

I think he will have to decide about the chamber music. It sounds a fabulous opportunity, and if he's doing rugby twice a week anyway, I don't think he'd miss a great deal by losing his PE lesson. It's his decision, but if he's not sure, I'd encourage him to at least try chamber music.

Rugby is tough and at some point in the life of a serious rugby player a bad injury is not a risk - it is a near certainty.

But we are all musicians - we can't give unbiassed advice.

I don't know how the UK system works, but isn't there a short period where kids can attend more than one thing before the final decision need to be made?

Also, what about community options such as local brass bands? (Thinking that for rugby, perhaps options are more limited?).

My daughter was a good all rounder (sports and music) and tried her best to please everybody as well as many musical activities outside school. Looking back now I see she was doing far too much. Eventually (at 14) she chose to concentrate on music but she does miss sport. I think the physical activity is such a good antidote to academic work and music. Overall at the age of 11 I think you're right in saying he shouldn't have to choose one or the other - he needs time to enjoy both and any preferences will develop over the next few years. There certainly shouldn't be the pressure on him to have to choose one or the other. I know teachers want commitment - weekly attendance at the hockey practice did mean you were more likely to be picked for the team - but perhaps a quiet word from you or your son to the teachers involved would encourage them to be more flexible. My daughter's music department were always understanding, especially as they saw that she was a committed person. Your son has to do the options he prefers and strive, if he can, to get a balance between the two activities. Let us know how he gets on.

The key thing is to know what sort of school you are dealing with. Some - as indicated in stories above - are kindly and flexible (and there should probably be a column in League Tables for this). Some are not. Students may indeed find they have to sign up for an entire year in the first week or two, and practices/rehearsals may not be missed, so hard choices have to be made. Far from cooperating, departments can sometimes be almost at war with each other. [I should stress that I don't think such schools are bad schools; they simply operate to rigid rules. No complaints, you deal with the hand you're dealt. I'm not trying to start a thread about it. The plus-side of this attitude is that because everyone has to take extra-curricular activities seriously, so you don't find yourself practising with half a team, or no violins (though a trumpeter might well say the latter is no bad thing...)]

Do you know any older students (or parents) at the same school you can ask for advice about this?

Whatever the outcome for your son, it will seem better a few weeks down the line. Starting secondary school is an overwhelming experience.

Thank you all for your imput - just knowing others have the same dilemmas makes me feel better!

I had to write to the games teacher anyway to ask him to release my son to go to see the music person, so I have asked if he can do one rugby practice rather than two, which means he can go to orchestra on one of the days. I'm hoping this will be a good compromise - I really don't know what the response will be, but as it's a boys grammar school I have a horrid feeling that rugby is seen as the thing to do. The chamber music thing may not come to anything anyway as I suspect he won't play very well - he doesn't really have anything polished enough to play well, as he took an exam just before the summer (and doesn't want to ever see those pieces ever again!) and he is exhausted having spent last night in floods of tears (there are another couple of secondary school issues getting him down as well at the moment - it is such a big change for him)

Both his teacher and I have talked to him about the possible need to join a band rather than an orchestra, at least initially, but he is rather fixated on it being an orchestra. The orchestras at the nearest music centre are Saturday morning which clashes with choir, and also last longer, and he is panicking about getting his homework done (which actually hasn't been too awful so far - it's the thought of it rather than the reality which is getting him down). The initial plan was that he tried both choir and orchestra at school, and then if he liked one but not the other he would 'fill in' with the one he doesn't like with an out of school activity ( not sure that quite makes sense)

My daughter (7) also started a new school this term and was in floods of tears this morning. I know that they will have both settled down by half term but it doesn't stop me wanting to burst into tears myself at the moment!

Very true I'm afraid.

Don't worry, the first year of secondary school is a complete whirlwind, my very musical daughter kept 'losing' choir. Not always her fault as they changed the day and the venue.

We have just cut swimming down from 5 hours a week to 1, and believe me, it's a huge relief.

Also come the summer, he won't be playing rugby, so it will get easier.

Go and ask the Head of Music for some support. We did at our school and he dealt with the sports dept and a compromise was agreed. Club rugby locally on a sunday morning seems to be fairly nationwide and in our school club players always get picked for matches. But the best news was an enlightened deputy head introducing a priority system ie on Tues and Thurs if there is a clash then music takes priority, on the other days it's sport. The two departments quickly learned to timetable a bit better!

It took my daughter at least the first term to settle into a lovely secondary school. I would really try and cut your son some slack. I'm sure there are solutions to the problem, you seem to have identified some very sensible options already. There are lots of opportunity, sporting and musical for your son and it should be possible to keep both up for the next few years without a real problem.
I hope both your children start enjoying school soon.
Dora

Our Doctor was telling me yesterday how her 12 year old son has just spent a week in hospital after a rugby accident. Very nasty - lost of broken bones...

My father was a very promising violinist until he broke his wrist (scaphoid - never heals properly) in a rugby accident at 17 - instant end to his musical career...

I never heard of anyone getting poked in the eye by a flute, but I'm sure it must have happened, and conductors do occasionally fall off their podium!

Burl

My son came home yesterday a bit happier, and things at least partly sorted out.

The rugby teacher has said that, although it would be more beneficial to go to both practices, as my son also wants to do orchestra he can just go to one of them. It still means he is at school late on two evening, but he is going to give both a try until at least half term.

He probably has a place on the enrichment programme as long as they can fit him in - despite not being able to take his music (it was in his locker and the key was in the changing room which was locked), so he was given some sight reading which he thought he played really badly. He will be joining a brass group and the time changes every week, starting from after morning break, so he won't have to miss games every week. The only problem to sort out now is the logistics of getting there if he is in the middle of games - it could be at the beginnning, middle or end of games, all of which could cause potential problems. We should be getting a letter about the music which will hopefully have details of the best way to contact the head of music, who was so enthusiastic about my son doing this music group I'm sure I can contact her and ask her to help sort something out.

His form teacher sorted out one of the other things which was worrying him, and the third thing he coped better with (as he didn't have the other two things to worry about) so it was a better day - helped, I'm sure, by a lift home and a trip to Pizza Hut!

Daughter still very wobbly, but she is also has a bit of a cold, which isn't helping. I need to organise a meeting to see her teacher and the SENCO anyway (she has dyslexia and gets very overwhelmed very quickly, so a new school was always going to prove a challenge)

Please remind me not to start 2 children at 2 new schools at the same time!

And the washing machine has broken down!!

I got my son a watch you could set an alarm on when he had to go to music at different times in the school day. We set it 5 minutes earlier than the music the night before. It really worked.
Hugs to your daughter. My daughter, aged 12 is very very dyslexic. PM if you would like to.
Dora

I'm glad to hear your difficulties are resolving themselves.

My daughter takes after her parents and is not at all sporty, so fortunately we have never had to grapple with this. However, she did spend most of the summer holiday before the start of Year 7 worrying about how she was going to get out of academic lessons to get to her music lessons. She moved from the rather small "Lower School" to the much bigger "Upper School" of the same independent school, so perhaps it should have been easy. However, we also had tears, in part because she had already been "talent spotted" for the upper school's chamber choir of, mostly, much older girls, and it was just all too much for her!

It is a difficult and worrying time for us parents. My daughter was quite unhappy for the first few weeks because she felt she was the only member of the class who had not at once paired up with a best friend. I remember I was in her bedroom one day and found a piece of paper on which she had written "I will die alone"! This was followed by a list of all the things that were bad about her life: no friends; home work; music practice, and others. I didn't take any of it too seriously when I discovered that the single item listed on the plus side was the fact that she had discovered a really cool way of writing the letter "G"!!!!

She is now thoroughly involved in school music, with lots of friends, and getting out of games to get to music lessons is a very minor inconvenience.

After having read all your problems, I should be grateful that my son was into sport , with marginal music inteersts, and my daughter was keen on all music activity but not into sport! Son broke collar bone at rugby at age 18 and never played again after that (plays football and golf now). Anyway I sympathise with you all.
Going right back to my school days (I left in 1964), I had problems too . I was by some way the best musician in the school (ALCM at 16), yet I was completely alienated by the school music dept. I never took music as a subject at school or was asked to play in a school concert . The reason ? I always went home for lunch, so could not make choir rehearsals and other activities. I think they did let me sing unrehearsed a couple of times in the choir (eg Christmas and Founders Day service) as they were short of tenors, ie they asked when they needed me.
It will be refreshing to play solo piano in front of an audience tomorrow in Chester ! Hope nerves dont get the better of me.

I hope your playing goes well tomorrow, Fsharpminor - the forum concerts are very friendly, so I'm sure you will be put at your ease - I've managed it, and my playing is much much worse than yours!

This term is the first one that rugby hasn't clashed with concert band or jazz band - and my son is now in year 11. He's always chosen the musical activities in preference to the sporting ones, but now he's suddenly found he can do both and is also wanting to join the town rugby club on a Sunday. I think if things clash, they just have to go with the activity that they enjoy the most, but it's very hard if they can't chose between them. The tales of injuries sound worrying though - perhaps I should try to put him off the rugby!

We still have this problem with our child who is just starting year 8. She was quickly picked up by the music department as good for the orchestra, chamber orchestra and chamber choir, and weekly chamber music too. All these things are brilliant - but they were enforced. Meanwhile she is moderately sporty, and so was keen to try out for a couple of the teams.

My advice is to tread very carefully, and to avoid overloading.

The end result is that our daughter currently resents the musical activites as they are compulsory, and impinge hugely on her participation in sport, or other things at the school. She would love to be able to do both with a happy heart, but you can see her becoming dispirited. The music department are often sharp with her because she is rushing from place to place, and so often late. The sports department often ask for her to play in matches on a music department evening - she is generally made to do the musical activity, and wishes she were at the match.

We understand that committment is good, and that attendance makes a huge difference. We also understand that the music dept is very good and very keen. However, the end result is that she is starting to not enjoy music at all, and it is starting to have an impact on her practice, and her out of school music lessons.

All in all she hasn't been left enough space to choose what she wants to do. If you had asked me before she went to the secondary school I would have been very pleased that she was to have so much musical opportunity. However with an inflexible (and very good and committed) music department it becomes counter productive. Currently she wants to give up all her music, doesn't consider her musical skills and talent to be of any value and so on.

She is not brilliant at sport - it is just an easier commitment, full of camaraderie, fresh air etc. and requiring little practice .....

So please be careful not to make music into a burden ....

It sounds already as though your son's school is going to accommodate him so don't read the above message as all gloom. It is just very difficult to balance things.

Yes, music departments do not always handle things well. Last week my daughter was threatened with expulsion from chamber choir if she didn't agree to sing in the main school choir too.....

It is a problem, isn't it. Music and sports organisers seem to be equally "at fault"...and I think that a fair few have lost track of the aim (for most kids) of providing the foundation for a lifelong interest. While some schools do achieve incredibly high standards in music or sport, it comes at a big cost to the participants, and one that they often don't have too much choice about.

Son Viohazard would certainly enjoy more sport...but by senior high school level, there seem to be only team sports (heavy commitment, mustn't let the side down by taking practices off, etc.) and martial arts (and that's a religion, not a sport...). Swimming, which is such a good option for musicians, and rarely involves worries about team-mates, is no longer an option. It's not only his own injuries he has to worry about - as a guitarist, he could hurt somebody with his long fingernails too.

I saw a hugely popular local school band recently - hundreds of members, performing voice/band/orchestra/chamber/ethnic (Korean, Chinese, AND Japanese) music, plus dance routines. The principal was very proud of them, and they win awards, travel up and down the country, sell CDs, etc. They have engagements every weekend, sometimes 2 or 3. But when the principal joked that the kids just loved to work so hard, only the front row of kids were doing the "smile-cheer-wave" thing...the back row kids had faces of stone.

The conventional wisdom is that kids serious about music don't touch school music groups, and I can see why. It's great to involve musically able kids, but teachers do forget that kids are not in charge of their own schedules, and all these requests (you're always here, so do the lighting for the drama group, add up these accounts, extemporize an accompaniment for this person, teach that kid to play a 2-chord song on guitar, come and sing at the old people's home...) are hard (impossible) to turn down. Also, a musical kid probably has out-of-school music teachers also saying "You're 15 now, you should be doing x hours of theory every day, you must be able to play piano well enough to play Bach, you should be at performance standard on at least one other instrument/voice...".

All senior high school kids choosing core music at Viohazard's school are automatically put in the school choir, and as a good singer, that means that Viohazard has to lead the basses (mustn't skip rehearsals...), and is expected to join the hymn chorus whenever humanly possible too.

Son Airman's school has a similar system - must join both band and choir if you take core music. Since it's a school that has a heavy practical workload anyway, the result is that most kids choose Art, even if they would really like to do music.

This year, for the first time, Viohazard joined the school band. Sadly, I doubt if he will even make it to the end of the year...the demands on his time are just too, too heavy. Rehearsals twice a week till 6 pm, that's ok, but over 6 weeks of summer, I think Viohazard had about 5 days when he didn't have school band or choir/chorus practice or all three.

I'm sure you can see where this tale ends: His guitar teacher asked him to join a summer weekend workshop. Viohazard said he thought he was too busy, perhaps next year. Guitar teacher insisted that he could do with the extra work on the lute suites. Viohazard was so frantic trying to keep track of all his rehearsals (having had it drummed into him that slip-ups would inconvenience too many people) that he mixed up the date of the workshop, and totally forgot that two of his other music lessons had been rescheduled over summer. End result: Viohazard felt like a failure, and guitar teacher was so angry that he terminated lessons, a very sad end to an 8 year teaching relationship.

Thanks for your comments. My son has only been at secondary school 2 weeks and the pressure is building up already - I do think these activities should be things our children enjoy rather than suffer!

The watch idea won't work in games as he is not allowed to wear one (understandable).

I agree about not going into overload - he has loads of homework, not helped by teachers who are supposed to set fortnightly homework appearing to set it every week. I have said that I think he should try 1 rugby practice, orchestra and the music enrichment until half term and we will review it all then. I've also suggested he tries to find something sporty happening at lunch time, which could maybe replace the rugby, as I'm concerned about the risk of injury, especially as he has hypermobility.

Thankfully the trumpet teacher has agreed to just keep the trumpet ticking over for the time being - the last thing I want to do is put him off of playing because he feels under too much pressure.

I also find it hard knowing how much to intervene at school - I've already written 2 letters and don't want to come across as the over fussy parent.

Oh well, only 7 years and he will have left school all together!

I do sympathise with you, 2childmum. I remember year 7 as one with far too many useless homeworks taking up far too much time. It may go against the grain, but helping him decide now which homeworks are no real use will pay dividends later. Of course, he will have to produce something for every teacher, but learning to cut corners is an essential skill in today's schools if a child is to have any life.

If I were you I'd try and encourage your son to take as little time as possible over the useless ones (make a badge with your name on; cover your exercise book and decorate it; keep a note of every TV programme you watch), whilst doing his best at the useful ones (sums, writing, learning French vocabulary). Teaching him to discriminate early will help stop him getting into the "Do every homework as quickly as possible irrespective of value" habit within a couple of years, as so many do.

Do encourage him to keep up several interests this year; he needs them. I'm glad his school still has lunchtime practices; the school where I work has only 30 minutes for lunch, so everything is after school. At 11 or 12 it's much better to be able to have a run around in the middle of the day IMO.

I'd write as few letters to school as possible. Then if you have to write in at any point over a really big issue, there's a chance you will be listened to. It's good that you've reached a compromise over rugby practices, so now see how things go. I'm sure there'll be a parents evening for year 7s just before or just after half-term, and that's your chance to talk to teachers face to face if any issues have emerged. Make sure you come over as someone backing the school - tell them the things you're pleased about before you weigh in with any criticisms!

I'm sure before long your son will have settled in fine. Until then, if he panics just reassure him that getting used to a big new school is bound to take a little while.

Sorry to come in again ..

I think it is very easy also for the child that likes music and spor to end up just doing those, and not getting a chance at trying all the other wnderful things secondary school has to offer.

My child's school has everything from foreign language clubs through science clubs, drawing clubs, running clubs, to gardening. Although Music and sport are brilliant, I feel that she is missing out on some of the enrichment activities available to her.

I also agree with BerkshireMum on managing homework - it is hard to tell a child that they should cut corners, but it is necessary.

Just picking up on the 'write as few letters as possible' point. I couldn't agree more on that one. Save letters for important issues, however if the rugby coach has made a concession for your son - mail him and thank him. He will be much more willing to make concessions in the future if he knows that you have appreciated his gesture at this point.
I work in a school and this is how to get results!

I think it's important that your son realises that he's taken on too much by himself, before it becomes a major issue. When I first started senior school (at Year 9; it's a slightly different system) I wanted to be involved in everything, so I joined the synchro swimming team, did ballet lessons, took up the cello, kept up with flute and piano, and was also an academic and music scholar, so had all those commitments as well, and I took my Mandarin GCSE! Obviously, that was totally mental, and my parents kept nagging me to give something up because I was constantly exhausted. It was only until I started to learn that, actually, I didn't have to say yes to everyone all the time that I began to choose what I wanted to do and what I felt I could actually fit in. We were getting 2.5 hours of homework each night as well, so you can imagine the situation! Now I'm in the upper 6th, and the only things I still do seriously are ballet and flute - so they were the things I really loved, and the rest got dropped one by one as school became more and more demanding. I'm sure your son will be fine, but don't let him feel under pressure from school to do a million things: it's better he does one or two extra-curriculars well, than takes on twenty different hobbies and can only make one or two practices or rehearsals each term for each thing. Moving to secondary school is a big thing, and he definitely won't be the only one who feels overwhelmed.

I do think a child should have a committment to the school community. If I were running a school and I had a musical or sporty child who didn't want to take part in any school activity I would be unimpressed. But equally a school has a responsibility to meet the needs of each individal child. There is a middle way in all these cases.
My daughter does everything available musically at school but I'm confident that she could withdraw from any group without a problem. Obviously she would need to do it properly.
Teachers really need to think about what they are doing.
Dora

I agree with you completely! In the last school concert my daughter was involved in all but one of the items on the programme, so she is certainly committed to school music. She is taking part in four school music groups and the school musical this term, so this business of threatening to expel her from the chamber choir really did seem to be a question of cutting off the nose to spite the face (especially as she never asked to join the chamber choir in the first place!!).