Hello fellow forumites!

I'd value opinions from those who are at school and from those who teach music - and anybody else who would like to give their point of view.

When I had my head of music post, I worked hard with school choirs and we had a thriving choral tradition which was the envy of other local schools. However, over a few pints with some former colleagues from other schools this evening, I learnt that several of them no longer have any choirs at all. This comes across as a very sad situation to me and has left me feeling somewhat downhearted - and almost wishing I was back teaching to try and rectify matters in some small way. I would still be were it not for all the paperwork!

When I was teaching I was aware that a number of primary schools werent doing any singing at all, and this made it more difficult to teach singing and to recruit choirs at secondary school level. That also came across as a crying shame as surely teaching kids to sing is one of the most natural things to do. I've long been a fan of teaching kids to sing folksong - and most of our folksong is in danger of dying out completely. What could be finer than folksong for primary school children to be taught to sing?

So, I'd like to hear what singing is going on in schools at the moment. Does your local school have a thriving choir? Do they teach singing? Does much singing taking place in music lessons? If not, why do you think that is? Are some teachers too inexperienced or embarrassed to teach singing? Do they think that the kids would mess around?

I'd appreciate your views please.

A slightly-concerned and saddened John.

I agree about the primary school thing. My sister did a secondary PGCE (not music) and had to spend a week assisting in a primary school. She likes singing and has a lovely voice so when it came to hymns in assembly she sang out loud and clear. Apparently everyone was staring at her in amazement as no one really does this! She said the teachers were the worst - they're the ones who should have been setting an example but instead they were so embarrased they didn't sing at all. I know that they weren't music teachers but still, it was just singing hymns in front of school children, not X Factor! I think very young kids have a natural desire to sing (or at least make noise!) so the fact that so many of them are coming to high school with a view that singing is somehow embarrassing and uncool shows that something is going wrong along the way in Primary Schools (not all of them obviously, I'm sure there are lots of good ones)
Now I'm not proposing some kind of grotesque 'I'd like to teach the world to sing' scenario where everyone skips around and acts like those kids from the sound of music, but surely singing is one of the best ways to get kids into music. Its free, you can do it anywhere, you don't need any equipment... Definitely should be more of it in schools. If not as a tool for learning about music then just because its bloo.dy good fun!

There seems to be quite a lot of singing in schools where I am, which I think is a really good thing - but it does seem to be less and less popular in most places. It's a real shame...

My daughter's primary school is a small private one, and there is alot of singing going on in lessons and assemblies and they still have hymn practise, I have recently started running a choir there and for the age group and the very small numbers we have been able to tackle quite complex stuff. My eldest daughter moved onto my old senior school (state grammar) where they now run 2 choirs and the junior choir now only runs for 2 terms, whereas there were 4 choirs when I was there and now the senior choir seems to get all the attention with the junior one dropped regularaly, they only sang one piece for the only term she did it which was at Christmas. They do not sing in lessons or assemblies. This also means no one seems to learn the Christmas carol descants any more.

My other issue is the music lessons don't seem to involve singing any more - with the majority of kids eager to give up music at the first opportunity surely a weekly singing lesson will do something to erradicate the embarrassment of singing out loud.

I think many of us share your concern, John. If music were a proper, recognised and valued part of the whole education system children would grow up using their voices and singing would be a natural part of every day.

Sadly this is not the case. Music has over the years been elbowed out and left on the sidelines of the curriculum. It seems this has gradually filtered down into a generation of teachers many of whom don't feel sure about using their voices.

There are centres of excellence - a keen head and an energetic and enthusiastic music teacher working together can and do make things happen. But it tends to be local and patchy. It's great to hear of a junior school with good music. It could and should be happening everywhere.

Thank you for your replies so far. Please keep them coming.

J

I'm currently at an independent girls' school, and the standard of music in general is unbelievable. We are taught singing from day 1, and it is compulsory for anyone in the first form (year 7) to be in the Junior choir, which runs for the year. There are two more choirs open to everyone and two auditioned choirs, which regularly tour Europe with the chamber orchestra. We have "house singing" once a week and Chapel twice a week, which involves singing numerous hymns. As well as this, there is some sort of assembly every day which involves singing. (We do do other things apart from sing at this school ) It's quite sad to hear that music isn't seen as important at other schools, and I do realise that I'm really lucky to have such fab facilities at school.

I teach at a large state secondary school and we don't have a choir. I think it's a shame but there is lots of other music going on in the school and the music staff are busy every lunchtime! The Year 7s do a singing club for the first term and perform at Christmas and there are always lots of soloists in school concerts, as well as instumentalists and rock bands and all sorts.

As head of drama we collaborate with music on the school musical and we get a lot of kids interested in those (80 in current cast) and they always enjoy singing when they perform but they can be quite lazy with learning the music and parts which is a shame.

A friend of mine has just moved to the independent sector at a school linked to a Cathedral and she seems to be singing all the time as well as the school running various choirs. I'd say there's a big divide between state and independent schools where this is concerned.

Japan does a lot with the core curriculum music.

The bulk of this time is spent on singing. Kids are taught to sing in parts from elementary school, and start SATB singing in middle school. There are local school choral singing competitions every year, and schools quite often have internal competitions (practice at lunchtimes or after school, organized by class leaders). Typically one assigned and one free choice song, with awards for "best class in year" and "best class in 3-year grouping". Competitions are not always open to parents, but sometimes coincide with school fair or end-of-year PTA meeting.

Kids do take singing fairly seriously (this is the home of karaoke, after all!). Two little scraps were walking home past my window yesterday, and one was saying to the other "That last note in the frog song isn't "yo", you know, it's TWO beats; yo-oh", and then they practiced it together.

From middle school on (age 12 and up) it gets harder to get the boys singing (and a lot of that responsibility lies with school music teachers, and sad to say, especially with women teachers...) , but the competitive aspect usually means that the girls can browbeat the boys into singing the class-chosen song at least! I very often hear the girls at our local middle school singing in parts as they walk home...and this is a fairly rough school.

Son Viohazard's solfege teacher may make his living singing opera and art songs, but he also teaches part-time at some of our rough local middle schools, and has a passion for the kids who are having a hard time making it through school. Singing doesn't involve expensive instruments, it's a built-in "healthy living" check, and it's often an area where kids with poor reading and writing skills can shine.

I think that unless kids pick the songs for themselves, incorporating pop is usually a mistake...adult choices are by definition uncool, tastes are too fragmented, etc. etc.

I read somewhere that kids in rough schools often respond to traditional (folk) music (the article was about Polynesian music and dance in schools in Sydney - but I've seen the same thing in schools in South Auckland in NZ). I don't mean "dressed up" folk music. Funnily enough, just as pop allows young men to show off, often so does really traditional music.

When son Airman was at middle school, the music teacher tried doing just that, incorporating trad Japanese drum music and vocal rhythms, etc. into the school festival, getting these kids to lead a group of boys in a welcome to open the more conventional musical program. It worked like a charm, they behaved like lambs during the rehearsal and performance period.

Boys who won't open their mouths for classroom music will almost certainly sing out when their peers choose and organize the performance, for competitions and festivals, but also for sports events (often kids here make up their own lyrics to some well-known tune and sing it to support their class/team, with a few kids in costume out the front leading the singing/waving banners/performing to the music). That "visual element" is another reason why classroom and choir music often doesn't appeal.

I've always had a good experience with singing in schools. I started primary school in China. There, although the "core subjects" were what people worked for, the weekly music lessons incorporated singing and playing recorder (the Karaoke point about Japan also stands here! I've never seen any Chinese person too embarrassed to sing, however good/bad they are). I then went to a small primary school in the UK, and, on retrospect, the music there was quite good too. I was fortunate enough to have a class teacher who would sing with us every week!

The secondary schools I've been to have all been quite good too, all of them had 2 choirs, one basic and one more advanced. My current school and my first secondary are large schools with massive choirs who do competitions and things, but the choirs I've enjoyed the most as been at the all girls grammar school I went to. The teacher I had there (he was the only music teacher at the school, I'm stilly completely in awe at his commitment) was completely against musical competition, so we sang purely for fun. We ended up with a small but committed SSAA choir (it varied around the 15-20 people mark) for whom the once a week singing sessions were just a break from all the work they had to do. Most of us acknowledged we weren't brilliant singers, but loved it none the less. We'd go off to our lessons afterwards singing songs from Sister Act in 4-part harmony, it was great

I do get the feeling though that more people would have been involved if they had been singing at primary school. I mean, I still cringe every time "Happy Birthday" unexpectedly modulates in the 3rd line :S everyone has a right to a sense of key...

So yeah, I think that the secondary schools are doing the best they can, but really, every primary school needs to sing. Young children naturally enjoy singing I think, and they need the confidence of knowing it is something that they can do and can enjoy!

At my son's primary school they have half an hour's singing once a week, taken by their part-time music specialist. They do also sing hymns and songs in assembly.

There is only one choir; it's run as an after school club for an hour a week, and the level of commitment from the children tends to be low. From a school of over 400 children, they can barely muster a choir of 30. They sing at the Christmas carol service in our local church and at the end of year concert, and that's it, as far as I know.


I think the point about the divide between state and private schools is absolutely right. In the private sector, a thriving music department is seen as a sign of a good school and the schools sell themselves on the number of choirs and other ensembles on offer.

My kids go to a small village state school, and I run the choir there, because I thought it wa a crying shame that there wasn't one. There is a fab peri who comes in and does brass and woodwind and runs a school band, but every school should have a choir.

The key thing it seems is finding supportive staff willing to go above and beyond, because there doesn't seem to be the scope (or the energy or the inclination - I'm not sure) to include it in the ainstream curriculum it's seen s an added bonus .

I'm not a music teacher by profession, although I have taught piano in the past - I'm a volunteer with good all round musical knowledge, a decent pianist, and experience of the fun of choral singing. There is one member of the school staff who is happy to give up her spare time after school to run it with me. If she wasn't willing to do that (and she gets nothing from school for doing it) there wouldn't be one.

Having said all that this is not a moany post. My choir kids are great and we have grown in size hugely and now all of a sudden we are getting really quite good and everyone wants to be associated with us. Success breeds success and enthusiasm breeds enthusiasm, but you haveto have a driver who igores all the'oh you can't do that because...' and just does it anyway for the fun of it.

The best news is that I have now persuaded the staff to form a choir for a secret Christmas performance at the school concert - more of that in another post as I need repertoire suggestions!

When I started teaching 20+ years ago we all sang with our primary age children, usually every day at story time. It wasn't always brilliant, but music was something we all taught, like we all taught maths and history etc. Now my children are at school not one of their teachers does this - they have specialist music teachers and so all the regular class teachers leave it to them, although my impression from friends is that if a school doesn't have a specialist they still don't sing in class.

My daughter sings in a choir run by the msic service. In the summer there was a concert with a massed choir of primary school children and her choir - several hundreds were singing, with beautiful diction, singing partner songs. It was great to see them - but almost all of them were girls. What does it take to get boys to sing, I wonder?

I was at a workshop on dyslexia yesterday and the person leading the workshop was talking about how to help children remember things - one way she made a big thing of was using song, because it uses more parts of the brain than just words, so science facts, history facts etc can be set to music and learnt more easily - maybe books full of these types of songs may at least get some teachers singing with their classes.

My son has just started at a boys secondary school. In his first music lesson every boy had to sing 'twinkle twinkle little star' on his own and if they could hold a tune they were told they were in the choir. Apparently most boys just growled - they didn't seem to know what singing was. My son sang in his treble voice he uses in his choir and the boys applauded him! He was surprised because he thought they might laugh at him.

Rather a random selection of thoughts - sorry!

Our kids' primary does do a bit of singing, but it's banal and relatively tuneless stuff they learn, and they tend to focus on only a very few songs which are repeated endlessly: I'm no fan of hymns so am very relieved not to have to be subjected to them (though the "assemberly" alternatives are just as irritating), but there is a wealth of wonderful material out there which could be used by schools, and in their school wasn't. I know, because we learned a lot of interesting songs as kids, from all sorts of different cultures, accompanied by a teacher who could play the piano....

The secondary school has a choir. But by the time the kids get to that stage, virtually none of the boys want to sing, and very few of the girls either.

Schools have changed beyond recognition in the last 20 years though. The demands put on staff now and the prescriptive nature of the school timetable are such that it has little do with teachers simply not having the inclination, especially in primary. Demands on staff have changed and so some of these things have been lost. Sad but true.

I am also come from Japan, where have strong traditional of singing. Agree with all ears!
Singing is the first thing in the morning in the classroom where all pupils sing together, before teaching begins.
Believe or not, In Japan most of school (95%) have a piano per classroom. So primary school teacher MUST to play the piano, and competion in the school, in the city, in the region, in the nation etc etc...
We really enjoyed this process and have still many good memories.

My daughter goes to private girls school (year 2), however she has only 1 hour singing per week!
It makes me so astonished, what they can learn in 1 hour? Of course school choir is there (year 3 upwards) but only 30 minutes after lunch per week, you can't do much.
I was in school choir in primary school (year 3) for 4 years in Japan, but we used to practice everyday for 1.5 hours after the class.

So I decided to make her join in local junior choir from this term.
She is absolutely delighted, and is wishing she could go to choir everyday!

I have been watching BBC2 programme "The Choir" with joy.
Unsung town become "community" and singing town - it is amazing.
Singing brings people together. and good exercise and makes you happy and realx... I think it is true.
Actually since my daughter joined in the Choir (Always singing at home, in the car..) I feel her concentration on violin or other become better.

Thank you fellow fora people. Lots of interesting points raised here, which will get me thinking more next week when I have some more time on my hands. Anybody else feel like contributing please?

J

I'm particularly take by the contributions from oboe d'amore, all ears and clarinetkitteh. The Japanese/Chinese cultural approach to music was, believe it or not, partly the reason I chose my first (Chinese) oboe teacher. There were other reasons too but I thought there may well be advantages to not automatically going down the "standard" established English syllabus driven path. I do that now though and have no objection to it - I think it suits me very well. But there was a certain something - an "informality" mixed in with hard graft? Anyway I thought it was a good starting point.

The comment "what can you achieve in an hour" is a good one too. Of course that gets even worse on instruments. My current oboe teacher in her peri work has to give 20 minute classes. Blimey, you can just about get an oboe put together, warmed up, then mop it out and put it away in 20 minutes.

I think the trick is in incorporating singing into everyday activity and I like the idea of folk music. We have a wealth of wonderful music in our islands. Why are we so bad at keeping our folk traditions alive? I can't think of another country so dismissive of its culture. What's more with our multi-cultural schools there could be a fantastic cross-fertilisation of ideas. It would avoid any of the religous hangups too - feelings of "oh no, shouldn't sing hymns, that might offend X or Y".

Then of course song leads to dance. I'm seriously biased here - see sig. But we need to catch them really early before embarrassment and peer pressure get a grip. Nursery school I would think.

As someone who actively fights to keep traditional music alive and make sure that it is not seen as some kind of sub-music, way below classical music and other formats, I can really relate to what you're saying PushPull.

I most often come across :

1) classical singers / violinists who sing or play 'folk' for fun. It usually sounds awful because they haven't taken the time to understand the idiom and sing it properly (just as mozart would be shocking if sung in traditional scottish style). No soul. No idiom. Wierd.

2) people who think that folk music or traditional music is what you play or sing if you can't play 'proper' music. Rude !

3) people who just don't know anything about the folk traditions of their home country. Sad!

If we upheld the traditions a little more at school these situations would be avoided, people would have a stock of songs to sing and everyone would be familiar with their own musical heritage!

Just had a listen to this morning's Music Matters on BBC iPlayer at the behest of Mrs. P. An excellent item about the RLPO and "In Harmony" programme in Liverpool getting everyone in a school involved in singing. And more.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tnvx/episodes/player

12:40 in.

Mrs. P. also just pointed out that the volume control on iPlayer goes up to 11.