Can you be classed as a Dramatic Soprano at the age of 11/12?

Simple answer: No.
The voice usually hasn't even broken at that age yet (yes, girls go through that as well), so sometimes you won't even be able to determine the voicetype, never mention the Fach.

This "Fach-hype" is quite ridiculous anyway - no voice apart from the (aspiring) professional operatic performer should be classed like this. It only has use in the professional world and is more limiting than any good for amateur singers.

Most self-proclaimed "dramatic" voices are far from it anyway - let them sing Mahler with a big symphony orchestra, or 3 hours of Wagner, and then you will see if their voices hold up
Having a big voice or being able to create volume alone doesn't make a voice dramatic. Even well-focussed lyric opera voices blow your ears off in a small room ...

Just to further support what mezzo says - it's entirely impossible at that stage to know.

The chords haven't finished growing, the pharynx shape isn't set (the hard palate isn't even properly hard yet...) - too many moveable factors that still need to settle.

The short answer is NO! I agree with the above posters. If a young girl soprano is producing sounds like those of a dramatic soprano at that young age what the **** is she doing with her voice? Out of interest why do you ask?

Henry - just off topic for a second - I can't reply to your last PM because your inbox appears to be full.

It's these Forum ladies don't you know! I have made some space for you now, my friend.

Yup, I agree.

The young Charlotte Church comes to mind....

Henry! Is there no stopping you, man?





And to respond to the question: I can add nothing further to what has been written here already. I have heard young girls trying to sing in what they think is an operatic and dramatic way but the results are not good or pleasing to hear and will cause damage. Never allow a young singer to push their voice. Kids should sing naturally.

When will you be gracing us with your presence at a forum concert, Henry? It'll be like Benny Hill in reverse!

In addition to what I said there, everybody should, of course, sing naturally.

Let's say it this way: Children should sing with a natural, fairly unmanipulated voice.

This doesn't necessarily apply to adult singers, and certainly not to certain singing techniques. Belcanto for instance is very far from using a natural voice - in fact, the process as such is quite unnatural and doesn't have the faintest similarities to natural voice production, not even to natural breathing ...

I'm entirely with mezzo on this one.

Singing is not a natural act, no more than dancing is.

I'd agree that children should sing in the most unhampered way possible without outside intervention (unless their 'natural' production is inherently flawed - husky or constricted in which case letting them sing naturally will be catastrophic) - I'd usually encourage children to sing in a thinnish configuration, which will be very similar to the one they speak in - so it may appear to be their natural voice. But I won't hesistate to correct 'natural' singing if it's harmful for the voice.

I don't hold that adults should sing naturally - as I've said, it's not scientifically possible to sing naturally - the only natural sound produced by the human larynx (and this is debateable) is speech. It is not possible to maintain that same sound and set up throughout the range without huge vocal problems. As Mezzo pointed out too - most vocal styles require very unnatural acts - I'm thinking Bel Canto and Heavy Metal are two great examples of singing being miles away from spoken voice production.

If you mean 'All singers should sing in a healthy way with no constriction' then I'd agree with you mostly, apart from necessary constriction in certain set ups.

Cor - it's a minefield singing terminology, isn't it ?!

I ask because I teach along side another singing teacher, who I have mentioned before on this Forum, who for some reason manages to push all my buttons and gets my back up.

This girl is her student and is in my choir. My choir is unauditioned so lots of different voices and we tend to do stuff like disney and more popular music. She had a solo recently which was between Mid C and C which she did really well.

Her teacher then told her that she shouldn't be in my choir as this was affecting her Dramatic Soprano voice as she was singing my stuff in her chest voice. The teacher said if she could have her way she would tell her not to sing at all in any choirs, (her voice is too loud to be in a choir apparently) and she should sing nothing below an F.
I, and other teachers where I work, have heard her sing in her lessons and it is not a good sound. It is being pushed as she is trying to sound like the teacher and be the dramatic soprano she has been labelled with and when she does try to sing a top G say it completely disappears and gets stuck.

Thankyou for all your replies. I thought that labelling someone that early wasn't right and am aware of girls voices changing as well as boys but I like to have my thoughts backed up just to make sure I'm not going mad.

I thought that saying that would stir up some debate - good! I don't think I've seen the term 'bel canto' mentioned here before. Discuss!!!


That singing teacher sounds an utter nincompoop.

Wow - that teacher is clearly a fool and a bit of a control freak! Dramatic soprano, indeed!

She may be threatened by you (perhaps student has said how much fun she's having in the choir etc) - the mediocre frequently are afraid of other teachers and often hide behind a veil of 'oh no, you mustn't do that - this will ruin your soprano voice' - threats and fear are great tools to control the mind of a young student.

If I started slapping teachers like, I fear I would never stop....



I thought the second post was an attempt to stir up debate - well done you!

What do you want to discuss about Bel Canto? The period? The technique? The naturalness (or rather not) of the sound production? There's loads we could talk about!

I love the Bel Canto repertoire, for example - it just sets my hair on end (Donizetti might well have had a stalker if I'd been alive at the same time as him) - and I might secretly want to be nemorino in real life...

On the technical side of things, I enjoy the sound ideal of bel canto and like the way a lighter, thinner production is used on the top to make things soar up there (I think that's probably what sets my hair on end) - I certainly prefer this sound over a wagnerian one, for example - but that's just my preference.

I think my problems with 'Bel Canto' are two-fold : 1) no one really can agree on what it actually means (singing style, period, both... in fact I don't think the term was taken very seriously until recently, was it ?) and 2) some teachers insist that this is the only healthy way to sing (when in fact it is no more healthy than Hard Rock if it's produced correctly). The high profile of opera does little to disprove this myth, unfortunately.

I dunno - what else could we talk about ? What do you reckon ?

Bel canto! We need a new thread about beautiful operatic voices.

Off you go, Henry! Set up a thread and a discussion - could be fun!

I sang for a few years with a very good male voice choir. Many of the tenors however, were not from the school of Bel Canto, but from "Can Belto"

When I get demoted to tenor it tends to be in the Can Belto mode.

Having just spent yesterday evening playing for the local Op soc - this made me laugh

(though actually, our basses are worse at the moment - which is unusual!)

Many of our tenors seem to firmly believe that the tune (sung in whatever octave they find most comfortable), is the tenor part

Oh dear, these are the type of singers who get tenors a bad name!
And believe me, it's bad enough already...

Perhaps someone should buy this singing teacher a score of Die Walkure - Brunnhilde needs everything from a C two octaves above middle C to an A a minor third below, which, by a remarkable coincidence, is exactly the same as Susanna in Le Nozze di Figaro.

I've often thought that becoming a Wagnerian soprano would be my best bet of getting Bayreuth tickets.


We've got a couple like that

Husband once sang in a concert where one of the sopranos was singing TWO OCTAVES lower than written


Only if we can have a parallel thread about beautiful operatic baritones singers