My hands are officially "too small". I cannot reach a 10th and never will: to get a 9th my hand is already at the "straightline" stage, and I need to come off the keys and use the edge to get a clean 9th because there is no vertical space under my hand. Grade 7 pieces were ok, there was only the occasional 10th which I could spread. I'm currently working on grade 8, and the 10th-density is a bit depressing. I want to play the Piazzola from the grade 8 book, and spreading almost every chord is... Tricky.

Any advice? Is it possible to carry on with piano having to spread every 10th? Should I be scouring the grade 8 pieces for 10th-lite pieces? Should I be working on spreading 10ths neatly and cleanly and very VERY quickly, just so I can aim for the "hard" pieces?

Hi Clarinetkitteh

I am sure there will be those on here wiser than I am, but I, too cannot do a 10th, sometimes the 9th is hard depending on what other notes are in between. I just pick pieces that don't have anything in that I am clearly not going to be able to pull off - for an exam, anyway. For my personal development and pleasure, well, that's different! I'm only grade 7 at the moment, though - maybe its harder to find grade 8 pieces that are suitable - someone else looking at grade 8 now can probably advise you but I'd be very surprised if there weren't a few pieces that you could do - surely they have to allow for younger musicians with smaller hands?

Regards

Collyermum

I cannot reach more than an octave and don't have any trouble. If I can't spread a chord I move one of the outside notes to an inner position or just use a bit of pedal. It's only a few moments in a piece and it's the overall effect that's important.

Hey I'm exactly the same but don't give up I suppose you either avoid the pieces or work your way around them for example playing the 10th the octave below etc.

As a girl who can barely stretch a tenth, take heart it's not a huge issue - you may have to resign yourself to not playing certain repertoire - Rachmaninov is usually an issue, the Kablevski sonate that I love requires some creative interpretation to get around the stretches. Many pieces that require a 10th can usually be artistically spread as a chord.

When they are looking at setting the syllabus for the grades they always make sure there are a number of pieces that are approachable with a smaller hand span, especially as they do have quite young kids doing the higher grades whose hands are not going to be fully developed.

and believe me, there are plenty of 'hard' pieces that don't have any 10ths at all.

Whichever pieces you go for - good luck
D x

I've always had this problem, being quite advanced for my age since I started the piano, I've always had trouble reaching chords. My hands have just about stopped growing and I can reach a ninth (just!) but definitely not a tenth. You need to find a comfortable way of playing them, whether it be missing out notes, playing a note with the other hand, or spreading the chord.

I've performed recitals and regularly accompanied over my musical career (mostly teaching - I don't rely on performing for income... and I haven't done a recital for a few years now) and I can't stretch more than a 9th - you just choose pieces that fit more comfortably under the hands....... Yes, it's disappointing that I'll never be able to play some of the piano repertoire that I love listening to, but there are still plenty of pieces to choose from. Having said that, I haven't seen the grade 8 syllabus yet so can't advise you on which would be best from there.... and I don't know the Piazzola..... Are you taking grade 8 or just having a go at some of the pieces? Yes, by all means have a go privately at something like the Piazzola, but if you're intending to perform in public or do the exam, I would stay clear. regardless of how much you like the piece. (And just because a piece has 10ths in it doesn't make it hard! There can be plenty of challenging pieces not stretching more than an octave! The Brahms, Debussy, Chopin and Mussorgsky are less "10th-y" I think, and certainly not easy options either otherwise they wouldn't be down on the lists.....

Edit: I've just had a quick look - they're not without 10ths but there are certainly far fewer than you seem to be describing in the Piazzola....... if that's any help?

There's nothing wrong with not being able to stretch a tenth. If you really want to play the Piazolla, either persevere with learning to spread them or consider missing out a few of the notes and accept the fact that you might lose a mark or two. Otherwise, just pick a piece that doesn't have tenths in.

I think the Grade 8 selection this year is especially challenging for small hands. I am having to play and teach some of the semiquaver figures in the Bach Fugue in F minor with hopping thumbs whilst holding down the long tied note with finger 5 which totally ruins the legato. I am having to match other bars with an articulated action to help maintain a consistent style! I couldn't find another A list piece which avoided the stretch problem. For the B list my two pupils have chosen a Mozart each - both challenge the stretch. Fast octaves in the C minor and rotary action in the K332 which stretches a tenth but only briefly. As I said in the Alligator thread the Brahms is a lovely piece. The stretches look daunting at first but once the shapes and patterns are learnt they are fine and the teaching notes suggest arpeggiation or pivot movement of the wrist if you can't reach.

I'm young (14) and can (just!) stretch a 9th, but a 10th? No chance... I have no idea if my hands will grow any more or if they've stopped. I'm a generally small person though (see Vertically Challenged thread...).

I normally manage with large stretches. I'm not yet so advanced as to be playing Rachmaninoff, etc, so in most pieces the 10ths occur occasionally and I can spread the chords. It helps that I play a lot of Romantic music, and use lots of pedal.

It is true that those of us that can stretch a 10th or more don't have to work as hard at some keyboard skills as do those with smaller hands. And if someone is already adult, has flexible, extensible hands, and still cannot stretch even an octave, then that probably is a physical barrier to ever being able to play huge chunks of the piano repertoire. Perhaps they could be more successful on a different instrument.

But you can stretch a ninth, which means that octaves are not too much of a stretch. So no barrier to becoming a very, very good pianist. Ashkenazy had relatively small hands, and Godowsky is said to have had small hands too. I have read that neither of them could stretch a 10th - yet despite that they rank amongst the best pianists of the 20th century.

On your second question: Yes you are probably better off avoiding the Piazolla pice for your exam. Why start off by handicapping yourself. Why choose a piece that exposes a weakness, rather than playing to your strengths. Apart from the piece itself, any nervousness or lack of confidence you have about it will affect the rest of your exam.

I agree with Mad Tom. My hands are way smaller than clareinetkitteh's. Coming up with a recital programme that suits my hands was a huge challenge because many works from the 19th century onwards were beyond me physically. Although I have a few performance diplomas under my belt, my repertoire is very limited.

I switched to the organ four years ago and felt that having small hands is less of a problem.

Who has judged your stretch as being too small? You say you can stretch a ninth - lucky you, I wish I could. Like several others who have replied I can stretch an octave, but not comfortably. Like others there are certain areas of repertoire I have to avoid, but it hasn't hindered me. I managed a diploma and I play as an accompanist. Large stretches just mean I have to adapt the piece to suit my hands. I don't think you need to worry too much about it. I don't know the Grade 8 pieces for this year but there must be some that don't involve huge stretches. If there are I'd go for them.

Good luck in finding something suitable

I don't know if you get The Pianist magazine but there will be an article on playing with small hands in the forthcoming issue (number 50).

Thanks for all your replies everyone It's good to know that I'm not the only one with small hands out there.

I've now found a piano teacher (I moved this summer), and she's advised me on my pieces. I think I'm going to stick with my choices, and just really work on getting the spread chords right, note-wise and stylistically.

There seems to be a lot of grade 8 questionss on here...

I, too, have had found myself getting frustrated by not being able to reach a tenth - at least without first allowing myself 3 seconds to position my fingertips on the edge of the keys! But, as has already been said, you can be very inventive with the piano, and arpeggiating the chords isn't always a poorer option to the good pianist. I'm playing the Chopin nocturne in c minor (op.48/1) at the moment, and there is a middle section which is littered with tenths. If you listen to someone like Katin (and even Ashkenazy), they make light work of it; I, on the other hand, have spent an inordinate amount of time getting the all the chords spread evenly. It makes the job of learning some pieces much more tricky, but I've decided to be stubborn about it and play the piece if I like it, irrespective . On cautionary note I've learnt (10 months of repetitive strain injury) is not to overstretch constantly. The combination of this and a flat hand is bound to cause problems!

My teacher can hardly make an octave!



In many other erspects haveing small hands is an advantage. I can stretch a 10th but can't play the white notes in the spaces between the black ones as my fingers are too big. Often wish i could!

I think you manage just fine!

Don't forget you can actually buy custom made pianos to suit finger size. (I have very short fingers, but I cope through spreading, missing notes etc. after all, many pieces are 'arrangements' anyway)

Lots of famous musicians have instruments customized for them to maximise their performance level. It makes it harder to play instruments which are not customized, but from experience I don't think it matters, many 'student' instruments are harder to play than professional ones anyway.

If this is true then maybe I should give up now (working for grade 3 piano) I can just about stretch an octave and find that hard, at 16 I find it hard to believe that my hands will grow.
Surely you can't just think of alternative fingerings? or change the order of notes in the chords?

Yes you can, and yes you can.

There is also a lot of lovely music out there which does not require large hands.

It is not just a matter of your hands physically growing; practice can increase your stretch without your hand physically being any bigger. When I restarted playing just over a year ago I could barely stretch a 9th; now I can make a 10th fairly comfortably.

My daughter age 18 has really small hands - she can wear children's 9 - 12 year old gloves comfortably. She will probably never be a diploma standard pianist but managed easily the grade 6 pieces in the current exam repertoire, and I can reach only an octave and have always found music I can play - there's a wide repertoire out there.

Having monster hands doesn't necessarily help. Never mind a 10th, I can manage a compound P4th in my smaller hand and an augmented in my larger hand, but I am still useless at the piano.

In fact I have probably picked up some bad techniques because of it, I recently found out that Fur Elise is usually set as an exercise in moving hand position, and I always just played the E, E, G# 5,2,1 (thumb on a black note too, so shoot me!)

On the viola my monster fingers are really handy, on the violin it's always an exercise in keeping them from bashing into each other.

So that is like G to C an octave and a half higher? (i.e. an 11th)

I've read about this recently - don't know if it works but I'll probably try it myself.
[url=http://www.piano-yoga.com/Free_res/Tips.aspx]

There was an article in a magazine (Pianist, I think) about small hands and I gather you can improve your stretch by yoga-type exercises; not sure if these Genia ones are what they had in mind but what's to lose?

I think so - at least when I was doing music theory classes, my music teacher said that we could call it either an 11th or a compound 4th. She did say which one the markers would prefer but I've forgotten which one it was!

Yup, C' to F'' on the right and C' to F''# on the left. I have long thumbs too, so I don't find such a big deal about not using thumbs on a black note. Some teachers leave me be in the same way that the AB syllabus says they will only comment on fingering if it interferes with smooth playing. Other teachers get out the big stick, never, never never a thumb on a black note. Why not? When my hands are in playing position the thumb is less than half a centimetre shorter than my 5th finger.

What? How about in big octave chords, it's unavoidable? Or do they just mean in melody?

Which we all know is complete tosh.

Yes - complete tosh, stuff and nonsense

Having small hands - an octave is my limit for comfort, but a 9th is just about possible - in my younger days, I was forever using my thumb when it was 'inappropriate' (on black notes)- my teacher would look horrified. I also used fingers 1 + 5 consistently for scale passages in octaves, when 1 + 5, 1 + 4, 1 + 5 is much better.... but not easy if your hands are small....

denmark

It'll be interesting to read this.

When my piano teacher did her grade 8 exam she did it with trinity college because they had a "small hands repertoire" for the exams.

Scriabin could barely stretch a 9th. Josef Hoffman also had small hands (which (cynically) I think is the reason why he never played Rachmaninov's 3rd piano concerto, even though Rachmaninov had dedicated the piece to him (even though he claimed he didn't play it because he didn't care for it)).

I learned the Piazzolla - I'm lucky I can stretch a 10th. My teacher has smaller hands than me, and arpeggiates large chords often, and therefore I would have no problem with a pianist arpeggiating the chords. I actually think it would create a nice effect - I may do it next time

My piano teacher's daughter is a reasonably accomplished concert pianist, with all the diplomas and Chetehams education and everything, but I believe her limit is an octave, certainly not greater than a 9th. Shows it can be done