I've been curious about this for a while, but since it seems to be a hot topic on various fronts at the moment, I thought I'd ask my Big Question!

Are you glad, despite shortcomings, that your child has the opportunity to learn an instrument or to take music as an academic (= for qualifications such as GCSE or university entrance qualifications) subject?

Or do you think that music past basic enjoyment level doesn't really belong in the school curriculum...waste of money/resources, or conversely staff/resources are so inadequate that it's a waste of time etc.?

I'm really curious about this - if you want to study music at university in Japan, you have to pay for (and find time for) every scrap of instrumental and theory tuition and experience yourself, outside school. Music is a core subject only, you can't take it as a matriculation subject.

Obviously it's a burden, and restricts opportunity, but I suppose it also prevents too many students rushing to take music at secondary or tertiary level when their career interests lie elsewhere..and it does mean that guvmint doesn't get to have a finger in the pie until university level!

From our perspective school music has been a total waste of time. I reealise that won't apply to everyone.

I am glad that my daughter through her primary school peri got introduced to all the things happening thorugh the local music service.

For both girls playing in Arts Centre groups has expanded their horizons. They have made friends who they get the opportunity to do things with.

I personally think music is undervalued and should be more widely available. I do think though that if schools and colleges are offering music as an academic subject they should be provided with correct,suitable resources and staff should have a good understanding of the subject being delivered.

Music as presented in school has had lip service paid to it here - a waste of time and effort. Primary relied on a couple of musical staff to meet the needs of 650 pupils - and in the end that meant a single annual show for each year group, some very twee songs of little musical or literary merit related to "assemberley", an abortive attempt to teach recorders to a single year group which lasted all of, oooh, three weeks, I think, and a few peri lessons. Very different from the primary school which taught me, in which music was a twice-weekly formal activity.

At secondary, music is taught at such a basic level that it is mindlessly boring to all kids - no attempt is made to differentiate between those who have had private lessons and those whose familes' interests lie elsewhere - they all "learn" the same dull stuff, when a bit of forethought could actually get a whole class making some really fairly cool music together - advanced and beginners together...the result of this is that when the time comes to select subjects, music is seen as the joke you do to fill in when you run out of things you want to study, cos it's "easy" . It's also interesting that the school music concerts - and there are one or two of these - feature kids whose musical activities are extended beyond school hours - not those who just do music lessons as part of their school curriculum. So from my point of view - school music would appear to be an utter waste of time and effort - and a better musical education is to be got outwith school, sadly.

I would not have been able to learn an instrument if free lessons had not been available at secondary school, and would not have learnt much about music in general without the general (non-instrumental) school music lessons. I would also never have played in an ensemble. If music hadn't been available at school it would have gone into the same category as university initially did - something which is only for 'other' people from 'posh' families with money, rather than something for someone like me. Whilst I did eventually do a degree (part-time) more by accident than design, I don't think I would have become involved in music if I hadn't been exposed to it at school.

Music wasn't really taught at primary school apart from a weekly recorder lesson for the juniors (all four years were in one class), hymns in assembly and the annual nativity play which included carols.

I personally do not like schools for music lessons simply because I believe some of the teachers I had were not very good. As a result I quit for a while, 2 years before getting a teacher outside school.

Also schools didn't have 1 hour lessons which what I had wanted at the time. They only offered 30 minutes.

Just to weigh in on the positive side, I feel state school music can be quite a good experience, but only if you are lucky with your teachers.

Both the infant and the junior school my children attended were very supportive of music. All the children sang hymns in every morning assembly, had hymn practice once a week and also a "fun" singing session. In addition, there was a good school choir at the junior school, with both girls and boys (the latter in the minority though).

Guitar and recorder were taught at the infant school, reasonably well, and the Head of the junior school was very keen for as many children as possible to learn an instrument with the peripatetic staff. These peris were also invited to put forward pupils to play at school concerts.

At secondary school, the first Head of Music we had was unfortunately very scatty and disorganised. Nevertheless, my daughter, who did AS Music without having done GCSE, very much enjoyed her composition lessons in particular because (a) her teacher for that (not the Head of Music) was very good (b)arrangements were made to bring in professional musicians (from Southern Sinfonia, which is based in Newbury) to work with the students on three or four occasions. I feel she gained a lot from that.

My son was extremely lucky to experience a brilliant and inspiring Head of Music at secondary school, the previous one having moved to pastures new. He thoroughly enjoyed GCSE and AS Music, as all the students were encouraged and helped to do their best. Many students were encouraged to play in school concerts, and the best performers had the same opportunities as the worst, i.e. played about once a year. Sadly, this brilliant chap moved on and year 13 Music was a definite anti-climax, though the current Head of Music is by no means as scatty as the one my daughter suffered!

I am very glad that both my children were able to take Music as an academic subject. Paying for instrumental lessons was a big strain on the family finances, so I'm very grateful for the extra (free!) music they got at school.

Just as an aside, I think a lot of the things said here about school Music are equally applicable to school French, or school Science; these are also taught at a very basic level, but good teachers make all the difference in any subject area.

When I was at school, actual music lessons were absolutely pointless for me at my British seconday school, but they were great at my German primary school

As I said, secondary was rubbish so I dropped music at 14. The extra curricular stuff (ensembles, choir) was great, however

Looking back to my own state school experience, I think I was really lucky. It was highly valued both at primary and secondary level far more than it seems to be now, although that may be to do with different parts of the country.
Thinking back back to primary school music, I wonder if anyone remembers 'Time and Tune'? I think it was a BBC broadcast for schools; the concept of a lesson having to be planned to fit around a radio programme seems ludicrous now!
N

By the way, what is the "local music service"? I don't think we have that! How does it relate to things such as school music or amateur community orchestras?

"Couple of music staff to meet the needs of 650 primary school students". That sounds about the same as the primary school Viohazard and Airman attended. The first two years are taught music by their classroom teachers, so there would have been about 500 kids receiving two periods of core music each week from the sole specialist primary school music teacher. They learned recorder and singing, and a little bit of music appreciation and history. The (overworked!) specialist music teacher also led band practice for the oldest two-three years (but older students taught younger students - no actual instrumental instruction apart from recorder taught in core music classes of 25-40 kids at a time).

The music texts have a mixture of different song types...but the reason the texts are not expensive is because the whole country chooses from a very small number of texts, so they are published in huge numbers. And of course, we have to pay for our textbooks here.

Although peer tuition works better than you might think, it means no minority instruments - because you can only learn an instrument if there is a kid within a year or two of your age who already plays it!

The lack of instrument teaching meant that all through primary school, Viohazard never had a friend who also played an instrument - families wouldn't pay out for boys to take private music lessons; and the "boys don't do music" ethos meant that there were rarely any boys in the primary school band.

It obviously is an economic decision, not just a cultural one...once Viohazard moved to a private junior/senior high school, suddenly there were a fair number of boys who play an instrument well, so presumably more boys at our state primary school would have learned an instrument if they'd had the opportunity.

I think BerkshireMum's point about good teaching in specialist subjects (not just music) is a very valid one.

Although the value of what's learned in GCSE or A level (sorry, don't know exactly what exams you have...) may not be great, at least you can get the paper qualification to study music at university through music courses at school!

What does happen if your school music course wasn't enough to prepare you for university music? Do you have separate entrance exams (other than practical auditions) that you might fail if you hadn't been taught what you need to know, or is it more a matter of scrambling to catch up with university level music once your course begins?

Here, entrance to university music courses is by exam, but the total burden of preparing for the exams is on the student. Music isn't taught as an examination subject at school, and your grades in core music at school are meaningless, even if you want to study music at university. It costs as much for Viohazard's private music lessons for exam prep as it does for his regular school. He will shortly need to get himself a job if he wants to take violin lessons in addition to the lessons he needs for exam prep. It's a big burden for us, and it would be utterly impossible on the average national income. I should add that that's partly because even state high schools are not free here...Airman's national high school is not that much cheaper than Viohazard's private high school!

At senior high school (ages 15-18), I think all high schools offer a minimum of one period per week of EITHER music or art; maximum 2 hours. Airman's high school offers the minimum (not because it's a state school, but because it has a heavy sci/tech curriculum), so he has had no music for 3 years. Viohazard's school offers 1 period each of music and art, plus one more period of whichever you prefer. Although it's not an exam subject, the "free choice" core music period is quite far-reaching...singing classical Italian and German songs, singing and playing recorders in parts, etc.

I agree that ensemble playing whatever your standard is a big benefit of having instrumental tuition available at school. Although violin is Viohazard's first instrument, I doubt if many of his classmates even know that he plays, because there is no orchestra - they only see him singing or playing guitar (when requested) or playing tenor sax in band. He himself finds it very lonely, having nowhere to play but his bedroom!

As a musical parent I have to say that my experience of music and its teaching in my children's schools has been good. But I know from reading the forums that myself and Berkshiremum seem to be in the minority in that respect. There seems to be a huge variation in this in the UK.

Make that a minority of three. But the musical daughter didn't do GCSE (neither did the other but that's beside the point) and picked music up at again at A/S. Absolutely loves it. Had some difficutlies understandably with things like composition - though she would say that's as much because of lack of talent as through missing the GCSE work - but she came out OK in the exam and is doing A2 now.

So if anyone was disenchanted by music in the early secondary years and gave it up and is wondering, it's worth checking the A/S- & A-level syllabus and if it looks good asking. Music staff might well be happy to give catch-up help to boost numbers if nothing else (in our case it was out of the kindness of their hearts, because they told her when she dropped it for GCSE that she was daft and would be back... much humble pie has been taken in, of the chcolate brownie variety especially).

Most counties in England have a county music service. Some are highly subsidised by the council, others hardly at all; this is why the cost of lessons, ensembles, etc varies so much from area to area here. The music service employs instrumental teachers to (a) give lessons in state schools (b) give lessons and run ensembles at the local music centres.

In Berkshire, the county music service runs four local centres, of which Newbury is one. I believe the lessons here are the most expensive in the UK for parents, judging from enquiries made on these forums about 18 months ago. However, the teachers are very good, and the ensembles high quality. There are all kinds of ensembles at the local music centre, from choirs to chamber groups to orchestras/concert bands; they take place on Saturday mornings. There are also County groups, where the most able from the four local centres can come together and make music, usually during school holidays. The best 60 or so musicians also have tuition on Monday evenings and have lots of performing opportunities. Again, it's a mixed blessing, as it's wonderful for your child, but rather expensive!

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think here you have to have A-level music to get onto most university courses. Many require A at A2 (the highest grade), but we are lucky to have universities catering for a wide range of abilities, and I expect you would get in somewhere with a D if you wanted it enough. There are alternatives (grade 8 theory and practical), but I don't know whether every university accepts them.

You would make sure you choose a school offering A-level music when you look at Sixth forms in year 11. If the teaching isn't so good at the school you choose, you have to do more on your own, but most people wouldn't pay for private tuition except for the instrumental side. Of course, some choose the conservatoire route, which is a performance-based course; for that your level of performance is the important thing, rather than A-level.

In England and Wales, if you're looking to go to university at 18 to study music, you need to find a way of getting yourself onto an A-Level Music course at the age of 16 (or possibly BTEC diploma in Music). In some areas this will be at school, others at sixth form college. I have seen A-Level Music advertised as an evening or weekend course sometimes in conjunction with a local music service, or a junior conservatoire.

One possible alternative is to study ABRSM Theory to Grade 8. Some universities will take this instead of Music A-Level, although it's not exactly a direct replacement.

As a mature student (over 21) there is more latitude, a relevant Open University course, an Access to HE course in the Humanities, or similar plus playing / theory ability might get you a place at university, at which point you would be scrambling to catch up.

As it happens, this is broadly the same approach as a mathematics departments might take, except that it's easier to find an A-Level Maths course, and there's no maths equivalent ABRSM.

Conservatoires are less strict on the A-Level music thing, although I bet they like to see applicants with it.



And the only reason that some people call them 'local music services' is that they live in one of the areas that has a different system of local government - it's just a slightly different name for the same thing.

Our experience of school music has been extremely positive.
At primary school my daughter was in the choir, though she clearly couldn't sing, and had fantastic opportunities there including singing in:
the Cathedral
the Garrick Theatre
Birmingham Symphony Hall
and the local hospice.

I don't think those opportunities should be underestimated.
Secondary school music is plentiful and vibrant.
We have a modern purpose built block.
The GCSE students formed groups and performed at one of the concerts. My only problem is that their friends then gave ear splitting support which caused me considerable pain.
School run so many groups it is hard to imagine anyone not being able to join one but just in case they run a group called FUSE which is for anyone who can't find a group they like.
There is a strings group, a flute group, who are improving at an amazing rate, a recorder group plus many others.
I understand that the Jazz Band, which my daughter is about to join, does lots of public performances too.
There is also a Theory club which goes up to Grade 6.
My daughter seems to have good access to practice rooms and these days generally does her piano practice in school.
Do I think it should be part of the school timetable.
Yes I do. Children learn about working together, they learn to perform and to prepare. They gain self confidence. Plus there is plenty of evidence that music enhances academic achievement anyway.
Music isn't the only way of achiving these things but it is one way and every child should have the opportunity.
Dora

Do I value school music? YES!!!!! Excellent teaching, good facilities, lots of opportunities for group playing/singing at a number of levels. My son's instrument teachers are great, but it's school music that's given them (particularly the younger) opportunities for playing in front of and with others, whether it's in the classroom, a concert, or just the a practice room at lunchtime

I really can't fault the school music available for my children

Primary:
Regular doses of classical music in assembly (can we listen to that at home Mummy?)
All comers choir
Male voice choir (year 6)
Recorders group
Orchestra
Brass ensemble
Regular informal concerts

Secondary:
Jazz Band
Concert Band (Wind, Brass and Percussion)
Percussion Group
Orchestra
Junior Choir
Chamber Choir
2 big formal concerts and numerous informal concerts every year
Weekly live music in assembly
Flute group
Live music provided by pupils at other events eg Speech day
One off special events eg string orchestra playing the backing track to 'The Snowman' while the film was screened
Whole class participation in activities such as keyboards, composition etc

Visiting peris at both schools with the usual selection of instruments plus a few more unusual ones eg bagpipes

Can't comment on the quality of GCSE teaching as kids not doing music. Daughter decided she didn't need to do music GCSE as she was getting so much other musical experience at school anyway.

Overall, hugely valuable both as mainstream curricular subject and extra-curricular activity.

My memories of school music are very similar - numerous ensembles, whole class participation in singing, recorders and guitars, house music competitions, playing in assembly, concerts etc etc.

Long may it all continue!

I've not read the whole thread yet and will come back to it but just want to pick up on this.

My circumstances were very similar and apart from my Dad's efforts to play guitar (and they were limited as he was self taught) I had very little musical background. (My Dad did teach me to read music though from an early age) NEARLY ALL my current musical knowledge and much of my instrumental skill came from our local comprehensive - and was started at middle school with just singing/descant recorder at primary level.

I am so thankful and grateful for those opportunities that even if teaching is sometimes less than ideal in school (often teacher's are expected to teach their second, third subject areas, and in primary - EVERYTHING regardless of expertise.) I firmly believe it should continue.

Even though peri lessons are now charged to the parents (They weren't in my time) I will make sacrifices if my children want to learn as because of what school provided me with I know the great pleasure music has given me.

Without these opportunities I doubt I would now be involved in music at all and certainly not at the level I am.

I don't remember "Time and Tune", but I still have 2 "BBC Radio for Schools" booklets from when I was in primary school. They're dated Summer 1969 and Autumn 1968 (so you can tell I'm really old!) and are called "Singing Together".

I still have the recorder books I used around the same time. It's curious that these have survived but virtually nothing (anything?) else from my time at primary school. Clearly I valued my own primary school music.

We had a truly terrifying music teacher at secondary school. By the time the regime changed it was too late for me. I asked if I could learn the school's newly acquired trombone, but was told I was too old...

Still thinking how I feel about my children's school music, and it's too late at night to reach a sensible conclusion now.

To me, it sounds as if the three strands (school, community services, and private teaching) reach a fairly wide range of kids. It may not be perfect, but I'm really aware that in Japan the child who studies music is a much more narrowly defined type! Girls from "nice" families often get private piano lessons, but that's about it.

I still remember the songs we learned at primary school, and really appreciate that I had the chance to start flute (weekend group classes, moderate fee) at intermediate school (roughly ages 11-12?).

Having instrumental lessons available at school isn't just about affordability - I don't think that the idea of learning an instrument would have occurred to either me or my parents if school hadn't offered lessons. I was interested in flute from around age 7, but until school offered lessons, I never once thought "I could learn to play that...". (Primary school was too small for any extras or groups...EXCEPT for basketball and the all-ages, gender-free rugby team we could just about manage to field!).

One big change in school instrumental music must be the arrival of affordable keyboards...our intermediate school didn't offer piano lessons, because it wasn't possible to arrange affordable group lessons. There were pianicas/melodicas instead...shared mouthpieces and all!

Definitely remember 'Singing Together'! I didn't realise it was so long ago though (I must be really old too!). I still remember some of the songs. I too have the old recorder books and feel quite sentimental about them.
N

My school choir took part in both "Time and Tune" and "Singing Together" in the 1970s. We used to have to go up to Broadcasting House for the recordings.

School music is as good as the value the school and supporting structure puts upon music, I reckon. Children learning without a support network will probably take minimum twice as long as those able to get stuck in with an appropriate choice of orchestral and chamber music. The schools music service is a huge contributor to organising this breadth of choice of ensembles.

Other than classroom music (just went into that one elsewhere) the main shortcoming in the schools service is many teachers are asked to teach outside of their proper experience. I am a viola player, but you can bet the school service would want me to teach not just violin but also cello! Anyone who plays clarinet is down as a "woodwind" teacher and is expected to teach flute and recorder on request. I suspect they'd think I was OK to teach flute too, the mind boggles! I can see there is a big expense in setting up contracts for a plethora of minority instruments, but someone who has learned from an improperly qualified teacher will be passed over to a private teacher with all manner of bad habits, and the teacher simply must know how to identify instrument faults and have an appropriate contract to fix them. A beginner does not require a Strad, but they will require a working, tunable, well-maintained instrument. My school violin was a doorstop.

My son was taught clarinet through to grade 5 by a flute teacher who admitted he could not play the clarinet! (He played flute, sax and piano to a high level and was very musical.) Son ended up with a lot of hard-to-shift problems of technique, which took almost as long to rectify as he'd spent with the flute teacher (3 1/2 years). I don't know why we parents put up with this sort of thing from the music service, but we do!

But there is always a choice, sorry!

As a music teacher who has taught in various capacities, some of these comments have made my blood boil, though at the same time, most are justified.

I came out of my degree, straight into teaching, as a naive early 20 something. I taught in an inner city comp, where I had little supprt from management, who considered music as a hobby subject, and not worthy of spending money on. A successful music department and hence a positive experince of music in schools depends on two things; qualified, enthusiastic teachers, and cash.

I worked as a peri for three years. I'm an oboist, but was required to teach all wind instruments. Flute and sax I could cope with. Clarinet ocnfused me, and I'd never picked up a bassoon. Sadly, it's a state of the world that if you want your child to learn from a specialist, you are going to have to pay for private lessons. Unfair, but that's the way it is. LEAs can only spend the money they have, and there simply aren't the funds for more teachers. peris are aware of their shortcomings, and the fact that often, they aren't helping the students they teach, but they have little choice.

Now back in the classroom, I also see issues. Music is not one of the core subjects, so teachers in rowdy, unfocussed classes do not recieve help from LSAs. I pride myself on mostly entirely practical lessons, but 30+ teenagers, keyboards, and a mobile classroom does not make for an easy time. There simply isn't the money available to change this, and as a result, able students often feel undervalued and become as disaffected as their noisier counterparts.

On the positve side, I work in a department of 2; we are positive, well qualified and enthusiastic. We have a fantastic peri team, and we DO NOT use the local LEA for this; they are all employed by the school, so we gat to call the shots. We are making the best of what we have, and generally, children are happy.

All these people who disagree with the standard of music teaching... what are you actually doing about it, other than making the teachers on here feel inadequate?

Yay, 'Singing Together' That's what this country needs again, a good dose of the whole country singing at 10am every friday morning.

The great thing about it was you didn't realise how widespread it was, I belonged to a skating club at the time down south in Gloucestershire and we did an exchange with a club from Durham, and I had a girl who came to stay with us, and we were both singing through that terms songs. It was great - and none of this embarrassment at singing anywhere - it was just normal.

Seems that in fact, the majority of parents and students are pleased with school music, and understanding of limitations.

Anyway...*is* there in fact something that parents could be doing to help out?

I would have loved to have been able to do something to help daughter's school music situation.

I fully appreciate that lots of school music teachers will even against the odds do their best. I wouldn't criticise anyone who tried and experienced lack of success due to limited resources or management disinterest.

It's very hard though when the teacher has a difficult personality and doesn't make any effort to engage pupils. I don't know personally any of the school music teachers on the Forum but I would be very suprised if any of them were anything like our teacher experience.

To start with you must all have a basic interest in music otherwise you wouldn't be members of the forum.

I really do think that there are things that parents can do. Before I put any of these down, I'm not making reference to any individuals, and if people are doing these things, then I'll shut up. ;0) I can only offer the opinions of a music teacher.

As a teacher, I find sometimes that parents are willing to go into school and complain/ investigate/ probe into their child's school work when the subject is maths, Engliah, or science, say, but it's so important that parents have their say in any subject when it falls below their expectations. Many teachers wil do all in their power to change and reflect, but we are so bound by the national curriculum that we have little leaway. Someone ealier mentioned that music rarely goes beyond basic levels, and that students are bored. Yes, that's true. The NC allows for very little manouveure (sp? sorry) and as a result, in order to make lessons more interesting and viable, teachers are having to move away from prescribed schemes of work and devise their own. This takes HOURS of preparation, and months of trying things out. How many year 9 students want to learn about the concerto these days? Purists see the importance, but relevance wise, there is little value in it. I have rewritten all my KS3 schemes, and provided new material for GCSE (which I don't teach, since I also teach RE), in an attempt to make what we do suit OUR students.

As for music services... these vary greatly. As I said, we don't use ours, though many of the primary schools locally do. Unfortunately, if you're unhappy with the instrumental provision made by the school, there really is only one answer. And no, you shouldn't have to go private, but, for example, when I was at school, my oboe teacher was an oboist... our wind teacher here teaches flute, clari and sax, but refuses to teach double reeds. This is another story for another time, but sadly, due to cuts in fuding, peris are having to be 'umbrella teachers'... as for (quote) 'I don't know why we parents put up with this sort of thing from the music service, but we do', you don't need to. I know private lessons cost more, but what price peace of mind from an instrument specialist?

Well! I tried both the softly, softly approach including going in with sensible suggestions from my daughter as to things she might be allowed to do. I took it all the way to Chairman of the Board but all I got was a massive cover up and as much as I hate to say it lies. To explain in case anyone thinks I'm taking my childs word over the teachers. When I asked for feedback on compositions I was told on several occasions that this had been given. When I raised this with the Chair I was told the teacher couldn't give feedback because the work wasn't undertaken in classtime (most of one composition was) and the teacher had no chance to give feedback. (wonders why I paid to have the piece recorded twice and handed it to the deputy on one occasion).

To be honest it wasn't about falling below expectations as I didn't have a level as such in mind. It was more about being fit for purpose if that makes sense.

there's little parents can do in that situation




I recognise our Music Service does it's best and I've much more sympathy with the staffing situation even though we've been caught out by it once. I pay about a pound per half hour more for a top class private teacher, instrument specialist than I was to the music service for someone to play the Piano every lesson and not give the right support (only lasted a term).

I actually paid quite a lot more for individual lessons with the music service teachers than I did for my children's private piano lessons where the ISM rates were used. As you'll see if you look on the website, our local music service is now charging almost £46 an hour for individual lessons (there are 30 lessons per year).

http://www.berkshiremaestros.org.uk/maestr....php?itemid=165

Someone I know who actually works for our music service as an instrumental teacher sent her son elsewhere for lessons because of this. However, she then found that he tended to get fewer solo opportunities than most in the music service ensembles he joined. I don't know of any private clarinet teachers in this area, though I do know of violin, cello and flute teachers.

I was more than happy with the clarinet specialist my son was eventually assigned at age 13 (policy then was to transfer pupils to an instrumental specialist after grade 5; I think it may be earlier than that now). I could not have wished for anyone better for him - she took him through to distinction at DipABRSM at the end of year 13, and was worth every penny.

What I really dislike about your argument is the attitude that it's OK for music provided in state schools
to be rubbish, because anyone who really cares can take the private road. Our schools should be properly funded, but they're not, so hard luck. That's fine for those who can afford private schools and private lessons, but what about everyone else?

I'm certainly not saying that it's ok for music in state schools to be rubbish; please read the rest of my arguement. I'm simply saying that sadly, that's the way it is. Yes, music should be properly funded, and don't I just wish it was! As if I would ever take the attitude that parents either like it or pay, and it concerns and upsets me that this is what you've read into my arguement.

I can understand why you think I'm saying that it's ok... what I'm trying to say is that in the state sector, we have to make do with what we're given, much as it pains us; most of us are music teachers because we love music, and want our students to too. Yes, there are short comings; I have to timetable peri lessons for the few here who can afford it, disallowing those who can't, and often having to cram too many children into classes to make the most of the time we pay for. No, it's not right, but sadly, we have to do it. Parents who aren't happy are forced to look elsewher. Music in England is in a woeful state, and it concerns me that we have to put up and shut up.

I was a product of the state system ten years ago, and I was lucky. Children now aren't... why else would I give up lunchtimes in an already packed week to teach oboe free of charge?!

As for the 'if you don't like it, take the private route' challenge, all of the parents on hgere seem supportive and interested, and I only wish those of all my students were the same. I know that if my children turn out to be musical, I would sacrifice anything to get them the best standard of tuition possible, even if it meant going private. Perhps that's wrong, and I know not all can afford it. Perhaps it's time parents made a stand? I know most music teachers would support it...

I think Violoboist was trying to say that school music often reflects the policies of management rather than agreeing it was alright to be poor. At least that's how I read it.

Thank you... that's what I meant; perhaps I wasn't clear enough. A school's music department is only as good as the management who supprt it...

I made the same mistake a few posts back . I was trying to say how I thought some teachers/schools viewed pupils who have private music lessons and managed to portray it as my own opinion

I do think though that when parents complain about school music that teachers who are actually doing the job look at what they are doing. They will mostly be doing their best and assume every other teacher is too. Sadly that won't always be the case. I don't think our situation was just about lack of management support or poor teaching skills, it was definately a chosen position. The attitude would be bent to fit any senario. This is a very frustrating situation.

Sorry, I expect I got the wrong end of the stick (it does tend to happen... ). I find it sad that things are so different now from in my youth, when instrumental lessons in schools were highly subsidised, and anyone who wanted to learn an instrument could have a go.

Apologies if I upset you, violoboist. It sounds as if you're trying very hard and feel the odds are stacked against you. Sadly, with cuts right, left and centre at the moment, I don't think school music is going to be a government priority for a while.