Hi all,

I'm mainly just having a bit of a moan, but after some possible advice as well.

I've sung most of my life, up until about a year ago had regular lessons for 5 years and made amazing progress.... life has got in the way a bit the last year so lessons have been on teh back burner but still singing.

Also suffered back problems last 5 years, culminating in a severe prolapsed disc about 2 years ago, and even before that was barely mobile at times. I kept singing and going to lessons through all that though obviously my voice was compromised a bit by back pain.

Now I am a lot better in many ways, fully mobile and relatively strong. In some ways I'm much fitter than I ever was before the back problems because I've had to exercise to overcome them!

My voice has continued to develop but there are two things that I know would improve it vastly: higher energy levels, and better leg strength.

The first is affected by many things that are both in my control and outside of it. The legs are really frustrating though. I do abdominal exercises everyday to keep my pelvis stable, and I walk about 25 miles per week and even do some running, but this only seems to keep my strength at basic minimum, and anything like steep hills/stairs really wear out my legs very quickly. I have some (probably) permanent nerve damage/loss of feeling and a couple of missing reflexes from the disc prolapse which I'm fairly certain affects muscle strength (though I was not given info about long term stuff like that when I was discharged from the orthopaedic clinic - the physio had succesfully got me back on my feet and I think that's as far ahead as they look).

On a day to day basis I am still very grateful for my recovery and mobility, but when I try and sing 'properly' I'm so aware of not having strong base and it really frustrates me to the point of feeling upset that I can't get the strength I want in my voice (I dont' mean volume - more the physical security that woudl allow good technique etc. )To add to that my knee and ankle joints are very poorly aligned so any of the traditional leg strengthening exercises like lunges are dangerous.

All of which is my very roundabout way of saying have any of you any tips on strengthening legs wihout lunges/squats, particularly after nerve damage? I'm also concerned that having done a lot of singing despite the back and leg muscles I might actually have allowed the wrong muscles to take over.

I know there are many with worse physical limitations than me but I hate feeling like my potentially great voice (doesn't sound modest I know, but occasionally I make an amazing sound) is trapped inside a puny body!

Thanks for reading my rant!

Oh DB poor you, I can't imagine how frustrating it must be.

First of all really well done on how far you have come so far, it sounds an awful ordeal.

Unfortunately I think as far as the physio is concerned getting you moving and mobile again has been achieved and anything beyond that is a bonus.

I think the only way you're going to get any safe advise on exercises to make sure you are not compensating by using wrong muscles etc is by continuing with a physio, it might be worth checking out some sports physio people, who will be able to target your specific goal.

All the best

D x

Thanks Digby - I've thought about seeing a sports physio privately. It would probably be a better use of money than singing lessons for now, but on the other hand I resent paying for healthcare! It's not just for the sake of my singing, which I can understand might be regarded as an extra, but also because I want to make sure I'm not storing up future problems that could cost the NHS money anway.

Unfortunately this is typical of a health care system that is reactive rather than proactive - I had a chronic problem for years, went to GP several times, not asking for pills or surgery but advice on preventative treatment and several times requested physio to that end - was dismissed, then had an acute injury that I had probably been building up to for years, and suddenly had the access I needed to physio/consultant/proper pain relief. So in a very roundabout way it was a good thing but I shoudl have had all those things earlier to prevent things getting that bad. Now I really want to maximise my physical strenght and find out what the limits are to that, so that I can avoid being a burden to the health service in the future, and once again my access to services is limited becuase I'm not bad enough to be hospitalised... grrr.

Oops, another rant! But I really think a lot of people would benefit from more access to physiotherapy and occupational therapy, since they are the type of intervention that encourage people to take responsibilty for their own health.

However, I can't change the system so I might pay for a sports physio anyway.

I am sorry for you having had such problems, however I do not think that legs are much of an issue. I have sung in many odd positions; sitting. lying down, half way up a rope ladder and so on and it makes no difference. The important thing is core strength and this you have. Maybe you might use some sort of shooting stick seat to support yourself as you sing.

Blimey - I think the way to save this country is to hand it all over to us forumites

I agree with you 100% the NHS is so snowed under, they only have the time and the resources to be reactive and so many things could be solved by a more proactive approach. My niece has a problem at the moment, she was a very talented swimmer just starting to hit district times and all of a sudden she started having a problem with her leg in that it shakes uncontrollably, permanently, this has been going on for nearly 12 months now, but the NHS won't send her to physio, whereas I am fairly convinced it has something to do with an injury she sustained a year previously and a physio would straighten her out and hopefully solve the problem. The problem now is she is walking abnormally always on the side of her foot, and she has to do a kind of hop if she tries to run to try and control the shake and she is going to sustain similar problems to you, as sooner or later she is going to end up with a wonky spine and sustain a far worse injury.

Even though you'll understandably begrudge the money, I'm sure it will be worth every penny in the end.

I know what you mean Henry, in that I've done singing in many positions, and it's good to do that to free up the technique but at the end of the day the majority of singing is done standing up, and once you are standing up you need strong legs to support all the air pressure created. I guess this might vary from one vocal method to another but I would have thought most singing teachers would say leg strength plays a part. My teacher (who teaches the Swedish Italian method, which works fabulously for me) always says that when she comes off stage from a concert, if her legs hurt the next day she's been doing it right, if her throat hurts she's been doing it wrong.

Proves the old saying - a Welshman will sing anywhere!

Sorry dolcebaby, that really sounds awful. I hope you recover reasonably well (which you already seem to considering how bad it was).

As for the legs: I tend to agree with Henry here. The legs really don't play any part in singing, and none of the support comes from the leg area. It is core strength that is required. I in fact don't know any singing teachers at all who emphasise the legs in any way - it is not a common thing, and it does not seem to make anatomical sense to me, but I am not a physio.

Of course your legs can get tired if you have to stand for a long time - some of my students (usually young female teenagers) experience this. This seems to be more of a circulation or muscular issue though - legs hold a substantial part of your body weight, and if you are not used to standing/walking a lot, of course they will tire. This has nothing to do with breath support however. It can be that you use some sort of false anchoring of course, and that, instead of using the lower lumbar region, you try to build up support with your thighs to take weight off your (maybe sensitive) lower lumbar region. In the long run, this won't do you any good though IMO.

If you have the feeling your legs tire whilst standing, I would recommend walking a lot or doing specifically tailored exercises for your legs at the gym.

Oops, Allan, we probably posted at the same time

Thanks all for your comments.... afraid I don't really agree about the legs though! I'm not claiming they are used for breath support, but given everything that's going on above them, they need to keep you upright! And if you feel tired quickly because they don't have the strength to do that, everythign else suffers.

Yes, that may only the same strength required standing at a bus stop - I also find that tiring, but I mind that less than feeling tired when singing.

I'm a solo performer and choir singer as well as a singing student, so I'm not quite ready to do all that sitting down....

But all interesting stuff especially about the particular muscles that could be strengthened so thanks everyone. Am saving my pennies for more physio.

PS Yes walking is great but I'm already doing 25 miles a week - unfortunately I'd have to go part time at work to do any more!

Sorry, then I misunderstood you, I thought that was what you were talking about when you wrote:


That's what I would understand as breath support in general, but I agree with Allan: Pressure is a bad word in singing in general, it gives you all the wrong ideas about pushing and squeezing. Even singing styles that require a lot of subglottal pressure (or a strong closing phase) are IMO not supported by the legs - I can belt without problems sitting or even lying down. If the legs had any place in this, it would be the other way round.
My legs do get tired though if I get lazy with my exercise regime (I suffer from back problems, too, abeit not as bad you I think).

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on the support issue

I agree with Digby. Years ago I had very painful knees for a while. A trip to a consultant and X rays found no problems. The physio at work had a play around with my legs and after a few seconds sasis "do you ski?". Apparently in my case the issue was caused by stretched cruciate ligaments which meant the joints were unstable (similar to your condition). The fix was light weight training. Building up the muscles around the joints helps to stabilise them. Generally my knees have been OK since even not having done any weights for years now and I'm OK for hill walking and running. OK I get the odd twinge.

Anyhow don't just launch into heaving weights around. Go to a Sports Physio for advice.

If you have to sit, then that puts pressure on your pelvic area, and through that into your abdomen, which affects breathing and breath support, hence you are likely to be right that it will change how you sing. I dislike sitting to play recorders too, and can't get quite the right breath support when I have to. I don't know if you have had to wear a back brace at all, but devices like that tend to make this very much more obvious to anyone who needs to produce controlled breathing and diaphragmatic support for music. Having to prop yourself up in a standing position using any sort of support such as a stick would be equally difficult because it would mean tensing shoulder muscles.

However, the only person who can advise you is a physio - and yes, a sports injury one would certainly be one option. In some areas there are also performing arts health services, though I'd have to root around to find any sort of contact details for you. *roots around* performing arts healthcare site Try that and see if it provides any useful links. I know, healthcare should be provided free - and I was lucky enough to get superb physio from my local hospital after sustaining a knee injury, tailored very much towards what I needed to do with the joint, but it's a patchy service, as we all know . Good luck, and I hope your legs can recover some of their strength well enough for you to feel better about this .

I've sung with people who've come up with various solutions to not being able to stand up for long period, one used a shooting stick as a third leg, another used a double bassist's stool, so in both instances the legs were roughly in a standing position.

For practising would one of those half sitting/half kneeling backless chair things be helpful (seemed to be trendy for a bit in late 80s) in that something like that would give plently of support without being in a fully sitting position?

Less relevant there was someone else in a choir who had this fancy wheelchair that would lift the seat up so that when the choir stood she could be elevated to the same height as everyone else (bit distracting the first time when everyone stands or sits there's a whirring from the machinery!)

The obliques are still abdominal muscles, and the other factor which will raise intrabdominal pressure is that when we sit, psoas muscle is also contracted- a large muscle attaching inside the back wall of the abdomen down to the legs, used in flexion afo the hips. My point is that sitting posture will put more pressure onto the diaphragm because abdominal contents are shifted upwards - and even if the difference may not appear to be that great, it could well have an impact. The adventurous might try donning a corset and lacing it up tight - believe me, there is a difference between standing and sitting .....

There is an added consideration, depending on the level of the back surgery - there may also be residual weakness in other muscles around the trunk, making such shifts in pressure more obvious.

The kneeler seat idea might work, because hips are less flexed, and propping just the bony part of a bottom onto a high stool would also have less impact than sitting down fully.

Belated thanks, anacrusis for posting this link to the performing arts healthcare site - very interesting, and I may follow it up.

I'm staying out of the sitting vs standing for singing debate though - either way I want to be able to do it standing up!

Thanks all for responses. DB