As a latecomer to organ - I'd barely set foot in a church until a couple of years back - I'm a little confused as to what an organ scholar is.
I thought that it was reserved for undergraduates or graduates, and usually at larger churches.
What prompts the question is that, a few months back, someone from a nearby parish church described themself as an organ scholar. My thought was 'aren't you just having lessons from the organist?'. I was under the impression that an organ scholar would already be able to play to a high standard.
Secondly, in another post, a 15 year-old describes themself as an organ scholar. I'm not commenting on the poster's ability here, rather, I thought it was a bit young.
I'm aware of the description given if you google it, but 'regular choral services' could be interpreted in any way. For sure, it's certainly stretching it that the nearby parish church has a 'choir'.
Can someone enlighten me?
Full Version: Definition Of Organ Scholar?
I think if we are talking university organ scholars, then certainly at Oxbridge colleges they will be of a pretty good standard. At other universities, it will just depend on how many (if any) applied for the post, and young organists not exactly thick on the ground.
What our friend Joe describes is a much happier position where a boy or girl has shown enough enthusiasm and early talent for the church to want to invest some time, money, energy and expertise in. My experience of this type of scholar is almost universally positive; someone keen and willing to play, for very little monetary reward, just being able to call themselves Organ Scholar of said church.
What our friend Joe describes is a much happier position where a boy or girl has shown enough enthusiasm and early talent for the church to want to invest some time, money, energy and expertise in. My experience of this type of scholar is almost universally positive; someone keen and willing to play, for very little monetary reward, just being able to call themselves Organ Scholar of said church.
As a (hopeful) parent of a possible future 'organ scholar', I would say the title could apply to anyone awarded an organ scholarship as a result of their organ playing or general musical abilities, and who is granted that scholarship to further their musical studies.
As such, one would usually expect a 'good' standard of playing, but the awarding body (school/college/university, etc.) might also be swayed by the candidates future potential as much as their present playing ability.
As such, I don't think there is any minimum or maximum age limit, but I would expect an organ scholar to have been awarded a scholarship by a recognised educational establishment, or trust, and not just be paying for organ lessons.
Organ scholars are usually expected to play a full and active part in the musical life of the establishment, including playing for services, and working with any choirs.
There again, I may just as well be wrong!
SB
What our friend Joe describes is a much happier position where a boy or girl has shown enough enthusiasm and early talent for the church to want to invest some time, money, energy and expertise in. My experience of this type of scholar is almost universally positive; someone keen and willing to play, for very little monetary reward, just being able to call themselves Organ Scholar of said church.
I hadn't read Joe's post, but yes; I would go along with that description too, which is very similar to our son's present situation.
Another distinction, as in our own case, would be free and unlimited access (within reason) to a practice organ; which we all know can be difficult to come by these days.
SB
As such, one would usually expect a 'good' standard of playing, but the awarding body (school/college/university, etc.) might also be swayed by the candidates future potential as much as their present playing ability.
As such, I don't think there is any minimum or maximum age limit, but I would expect an organ scholar to have been awarded a scholarship by a recognised educational establishment, or trust, and not just be paying for organ lessons.
Organ scholars are usually expected to play a full and active part in the musical life of the establishment, including playing for services, and working with any choirs.
There again, I may just as well be wrong!
SB
QUOTE(guilmant @ Sep 25 2009, 09:35 PM) 
What our friend Joe describes is a much happier position where a boy or girl has shown enough enthusiasm and early talent for the church to want to invest some time, money, energy and expertise in. My experience of this type of scholar is almost universally positive; someone keen and willing to play, for very little monetary reward, just being able to call themselves Organ Scholar of said church.
I hadn't read Joe's post, but yes; I would go along with that description too, which is very similar to our son's present situation.
Another distinction, as in our own case, would be free and unlimited access (within reason) to a practice organ; which we all know can be difficult to come by these days.
SB
For me, there is always confusion as to what an Organ Scholar is and what one does. That is because so many churches offer different things.
Most institutions will have a Junior organ scholar anf a Senior Organ scholar. The Junior progresses onto the senior organ scholarship.
For places like cambridge, you have to be at a high standard already. They normally only take on undergrads, but also take postgrads.
You need to be able to organise services, teach and direct the choir. Some chapels, have no director of music so it is up to the organ scholar to do that role.
Now, it brings about a question. An undergrad is normaly bout 18/19? How can someone at 18 already be able to take on the role of a Director of Music?
Normally you rise up.
I understand that some people got there FRCO at 19 but they must work really hard to get it.
At 20 yrs old I can just about play psalms well, but they are not perfect. I certainly couldn't lead a full choir.
Im not a singer so have no idea about training voices and have never looked at conducting.
Unless your organ tutor decided to teach you conducting (mine didn't), then an organ scholarship perhaps isnt for you.
Most scholarships have a list of pieces that you have to pick from in order to make sure you dont pick easy pieces. You need to show that you are a compitent organist.
I always seem to find trio mvts from Bach trio sontas in the list. There are much more difficult pieces they could pick to test you.
They might ask for another contrasting piece.
Then there are all the other tests, like sight reading, Hymn playing.
Really, If you can succesfully complete an Aural and ear test, Play a trio sonata by Bach, Conduct a six minute choir practice, improvise, play through a hymn and be at grade 8 standard by the time your 18/19 then I want to swap bodies with you because I havent got there yet.
Looks like I wont be applying for an organ scholarship until Im well old.
Hope this helps.
Most institutions will have a Junior organ scholar anf a Senior Organ scholar. The Junior progresses onto the senior organ scholarship.
For places like cambridge, you have to be at a high standard already. They normally only take on undergrads, but also take postgrads.
You need to be able to organise services, teach and direct the choir. Some chapels, have no director of music so it is up to the organ scholar to do that role.
Now, it brings about a question. An undergrad is normaly bout 18/19? How can someone at 18 already be able to take on the role of a Director of Music?
Normally you rise up.
I understand that some people got there FRCO at 19 but they must work really hard to get it.
At 20 yrs old I can just about play psalms well, but they are not perfect. I certainly couldn't lead a full choir.
Im not a singer so have no idea about training voices and have never looked at conducting.
Unless your organ tutor decided to teach you conducting (mine didn't), then an organ scholarship perhaps isnt for you.
Most scholarships have a list of pieces that you have to pick from in order to make sure you dont pick easy pieces. You need to show that you are a compitent organist.
I always seem to find trio mvts from Bach trio sontas in the list. There are much more difficult pieces they could pick to test you.
They might ask for another contrasting piece.
Then there are all the other tests, like sight reading, Hymn playing.
Really, If you can succesfully complete an Aural and ear test, Play a trio sonata by Bach, Conduct a six minute choir practice, improvise, play through a hymn and be at grade 8 standard by the time your 18/19 then I want to swap bodies with you because I havent got there yet.
Looks like I wont be applying for an organ scholarship until Im well old.
Hope this helps.
Maybe slightly off topic, but it is 10 O'clock on Friday eveing, and I am writing this on my laptop in church. Can anyone guess why?
How many marks should I give him for dedication?
PS: It's now 22.05 and I have just heard the creak of the bellows as the blower is switched off!
SB
QUOTE(guilmant @ Sep 25 2009, 09:35 PM)
My experience of this type of scholar is almost universally positive; someone keen and willing to play, for very little monetary reward, just being able to call themselves Organ Scholar of said church.
I think that's what I'm driving at. To me, an organ scholar has a particular connotation. Someone who has subsidised lessons at a (small) parish church or plays for little monetary reward (!) is someone having lessons with the organist at the church, not an 'organ scholar' to my mind. Personally, I'd not dare have called myself such – but if we follow this definition, aren't/weren't we all 'organ scholars' at one point or another?
QUOTE(guilmant @ Sep 25 2009, 09:35 PM)
I think if we are talking university organ scholars, then certainly at Oxbridge colleges they will be of a pretty good standard. At other universities, it will just depend on how many (if any) applied for the post, and young organists not exactly thick on the ground.
What our friend Joe describes is a much happier position where a boy or girl has shown enough enthusiasm and early talent for the church to want to invest some time, money, energy and expertise in. My experience of this type of scholar is almost universally positive; someone keen and willing to play, for very little monetary reward, just being able to call themselves Organ Scholar of said church.
Yeah, I'd go along with that.
I remember in my late teenage years applying for - and successfully obtaining - a certain organist & choirmaster job. The Vicar used to call me 'our organ scholar' in the parish magazine (because I was still having lessons) despite the fact that I was organist & choirmaster, and this used to irritate me very much at the time!
Now thankfully home in the warm again.... 
Don't forget that quite a few public schools offer organ scholarships at 6th form (now year 11 and 12), so an organ scholar need only be 16 years of age. Additionally, some churches award scholarships to youngsters from trust funds set up for that purpose - often bequeathed by a past organist. Sadly, these are not always taken up nowadays.
On the other hand, a friend of ours was awarded an organ scholarship as a mature student, aged thirty something, so there's hope yet.
SB
Don't forget that quite a few public schools offer organ scholarships at 6th form (now year 11 and 12), so an organ scholar need only be 16 years of age. Additionally, some churches award scholarships to youngsters from trust funds set up for that purpose - often bequeathed by a past organist. Sadly, these are not always taken up nowadays.
On the other hand, a friend of ours was awarded an organ scholarship as a mature student, aged thirty something, so there's hope yet.
SB
My mother in law was recently the organ scholar at our local parish church, which entailed a couple of years worth of fortnightly lessons funded by a bequest. She's now 70 and really enjoyed the experience (also plays piano to a decent standard) and fills in when our resident organist is on holiday.
What gets me are those organ scholars who do a few years as organ scholar before university, go to university and have an organ scholarship there, graduate and then do another two or three years as an organ scholar somewhere else. I just feel like shouting GET A PROPER JOB AND TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY !! Probably just jealousy on my part though... 
As the posts above indicate, the term organ scholar can mean various things depending on the church/institution involved.
The most sought-after scholarships are those in the greater Oxbridge colleges where the organ scholar is effectively the assistant organist (though nowadays there tend to be two - a senior and a junior, as mentioned - but see also below). In the lesser colleges the organ scholar will be in charge of the music (but I assume still answerable to someone somewhere).
In the cathedrals the organ scholar may be anything from the third organist (which is also the case in Oxford at Christ Church and, now, New College) to little more than a page-turner and occasional hymn player, depending on the individual's capabilities - it is a post where one watches and learns and assists within one's capabilities. I had such a scholarship and was warned by the outgoing incumbent that I would be doing little more than turning pages and playing the odd hymn and voluntary - but in actual fact I ended up doing a helluva lot more than that (not least because the organist and assistant fell out and came to an arrangement whereby they avoided each other as much as possible!)
In parish churches the post can mean literally whatever the church wants it to mean. At this level it is IMO a fairly meaningless term - it may be best to be guided by the stature of the church itself.
Back in the 60s when I was a student, to get an Oxbridge scholarship you pretty much needed to be of diploma standard. This was in the days when King's boasted the likes of Andrew Davies (now Sir Andrew) and Simon Preston (who Sir David Willcocks never heard play a wrong note). While of course there are still such people around (recently King's actively sought a particularly brilliant cathedral organ scholar) I'm told that nowadays it is so difficult to fill the posts that anyone with grade 8 is pretty much guaranteed to get an Oxbridge scholarship and you may still be successful with less.
It has also been suggested to me that a corollary of this is that learning the organ to a competent level would be an excellent way of maximising your chances of getting into Oxford or Cambridge.
The most sought-after scholarships are those in the greater Oxbridge colleges where the organ scholar is effectively the assistant organist (though nowadays there tend to be two - a senior and a junior, as mentioned - but see also below). In the lesser colleges the organ scholar will be in charge of the music (but I assume still answerable to someone somewhere).
In the cathedrals the organ scholar may be anything from the third organist (which is also the case in Oxford at Christ Church and, now, New College) to little more than a page-turner and occasional hymn player, depending on the individual's capabilities - it is a post where one watches and learns and assists within one's capabilities. I had such a scholarship and was warned by the outgoing incumbent that I would be doing little more than turning pages and playing the odd hymn and voluntary - but in actual fact I ended up doing a helluva lot more than that (not least because the organist and assistant fell out and came to an arrangement whereby they avoided each other as much as possible!)
In parish churches the post can mean literally whatever the church wants it to mean. At this level it is IMO a fairly meaningless term - it may be best to be guided by the stature of the church itself.
Back in the 60s when I was a student, to get an Oxbridge scholarship you pretty much needed to be of diploma standard. This was in the days when King's boasted the likes of Andrew Davies (now Sir Andrew) and Simon Preston (who Sir David Willcocks never heard play a wrong note). While of course there are still such people around (recently King's actively sought a particularly brilliant cathedral organ scholar) I'm told that nowadays it is so difficult to fill the posts that anyone with grade 8 is pretty much guaranteed to get an Oxbridge scholarship and you may still be successful with less.
It has also been suggested to me that a corollary of this is that learning the organ to a competent level would be an excellent way of maximising your chances of getting into Oxford or Cambridge.
It used to be the case that an Organ Scholar offer meant you'd be offered two Es to go and study at Oxbridge. I don't think that is the case any longer? Therefore, the OS offer is meaningless unless you achieve the requisite 4 As or whatever at A Level....
OK, I stand corrected (or is this a cue for a debate about modern "A" level standards? )
)
QUOTE(Vox Humana @ Sep 27 2009, 11:14 AM)
OK, I stand corrected (or is this a cue for a debate about modern "A" level standards?
)Oh yes please! Anything is better than doing my VAT return on a Sunday afternoon.
SB
QUOTE(confutatis @ Sep 27 2009, 11:09 AM)
It used to be the case that an Organ Scholar offer meant you'd be offered two Es to go and study at Oxbridge. I don't think that is the case any longer? Therefore, the OS offer is meaningless unless you achieve the requisite 4 As or whatever at A Level....
It also used to be the case that if you passed the entrance exam and interview then you had a two E offer from Oxford; I did maths at Somerville and had a nice EE offer, without being able to play the organ (or the piano, although I did manage to drop my keys into the college's grand piano on my very first day there!
)It's still a similar set-up, though - you apply for the organ (or choral) scholarship in September, have the audition, if you pass the audition they say "we would be prepared to offer you an organ/a choral scholarship if you pass the interview/exam for the subject you want to read". If you don't pass the audition, then you can then decide whether or not you want to bother applying. You then have to sit the same exams/interviews as everyone else applying for your subject, and get an academic offer, and fulfil its conditions.
And yes, there are (or there certainly were in the 1990s) a lot of very good organ scholars around who haven't a clue what to do with a choir. In fact there are a lot of very good cathedral organists around who still haven't the faintest idea how to conduct!
I'm thinking about organ scholarships for the future and I was hoping that someone who is, or was a gap-year organ scholar could advise me on what sort of things they look for in the trials/interviews? I'm interested in researching gap year organ scholarships for a couple of years time (2012/2013 academic year) so I've got some time now to develop my playing, wanted to know what sort of things are most helpful.
Viewpoints from people who have been at cathedrals (or somewhere else with a daily music routine, such as St. George's Chapel Windsor etc.) would be really helpful, what were your experiences like? How did you find it generally?
Thanks very much
Joe
Viewpoints from people who have been at cathedrals (or somewhere else with a daily music routine, such as St. George's Chapel Windsor etc.) would be really helpful, what were your experiences like? How did you find it generally?
Thanks very much
Joe
QUOTE(joe-organ&piano @ Dec 14 2009, 08:22 PM)
In my case, I have been awarded an official organ scholarship by St. Wulfram's Church, Grantham
Hi Joe. I was interested by your statement. How does an "official organ scholarship" differ from an unofficial one?
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