Ok, lots of parents seem unhappy with the music provision that their children receive in school, especially when their child is deemed to be pretty good at an instrument. So my question is this: what do you want to see in school to aid your child in music? Different work to the rest of the class? Same work but at a much higher level?

I am not being sarcastic, just genuinely interested because as a secondary school music teacher I funnily enough do care about giving my students the best education and this includes children of ALL abilities. I also find myself in a similar situation having acquired a student in a year 7 class who has trumpet lessons with our brass peri and is already around grade 4/5 standard, so thoughts are welcome.

My daughter was grade 4/5 standard in cello, recorder and clarinet when she started secondary school, but it seems to me that her classroom music lessons were, and are, at pretty much the right level for her. This is, in part, because the classes are split into two groups from the start (except for one period of singing a week) depending on the children's musical background. Initially it's done according to ABRSM exams passed, I think, though for years 8 and 9 it seems to be done according to results in the school exams. So, those who can already read music do not need to spend a lot of time having notation explained, while those with little music behind them can have more help. The other reason it's always been fine is because the classroom lessons cover things she knows very little about - different musical genres, composition and the like, not touched on in instrumental lessons.

What I would like the school to do is to encourage her to perform solo a bit more by providing more informal opportunities to do so. She likes performing but tends to get very nervous about it. However, I'm never quite sure if the school really has any responsibility to provide such opportunities in respect of instruments that she learns out of school...

Well I don't fall into the unhappy catagory but here goes. Out of class I would think is pretty obvious. Lots of performance opportunity and a theory club, both of which we have. Plus opportunity to practice, which we also have.
In class is also working well for us.
Last year Beth's teacher used to decide whether she would benefit from the class. If he thought she would he kept her with the class. If he thought she wouldn't he sent her to a practice room where she used the time to practice which was really nice as it took the pressure off at home.
She also gets differentiated work in class, in that if she can do something she is given more to do.
This year seems to be more of a problem for her, in Year 7 she was working to Grade 5 but now in Year 8 she is working to Grade 7, it is hard for a class teacher to keep up with this. Beth is beginning to claim to be bored, not her normal attitude to anything.

Unfortunately we have a solution to this. Beth has a serious language disability and will need individual sessions in school. The norm in school is to remove a child from German and give them extra English but Beth wanted to do German, and her language teachers are sufficiently fabulous that she is really enjoying language classes, so the plan is to take her out of music and she has agreed to this.

What would we do this we didn't have the language problem?
I guess I would be talking to school about maybe letting her practice instead of a lesson or providing her with some "musicality" resources. We are a non-musical family so she really lacks experience of listening to classical music. Letting her listen to a carefully chosen CD, or listen again on iPlayer would have real value especially if it came with some notes. Her reading is fine, her language problem is just expressive.

Do I think she is short changed by school?
Heck no.
She gets a theory lesson each week where the teacher said repeatedly that he would follow the lead of the Junior Conservatoire she attends to make sure she didn't get confused. Plus she is in choir plus 3 music groups, two of them of high quality, and has an invitation to join a 4th group. And she gets opportunities to perform solos.

Do I think she should do a GCSE music at school?
I don't know. I will talk to school and take their advice. By then Beth will probably be doing an AS at the Junior Conservatoire so it is going to be difficult to know what to do for the best.

We are so lucky to have a school that looks at the whole picture.
Dora

It must be hard as a teacher to find time to deal with different levels of ability in a music class. My daughter is coming to the end of year 7 and plays both cello and piano (she's never done exams, but is playing around Grade 5 AMEB pieces for cello and grade 4 for piano). She's had wonderful teaching from our peripatetic strings teacher (who started her on cello, then advised us to go to private lessons with a cello teacher - the peri is a first study violinist and was feeling out of her depth with my daughter after a couple of years) - this teacher runs the school orchestra (5 kids) and also the combined schools orchestra in which my daughter plays. Could not complain about any of these opportunities, so we have been very lucky.

Class music is quite different - the teacher does computer-based work with them (Audacity). My daughter has been very bored by this - he has encouraged her to bring her cello in, but doesn't really know how to include it in what they are doing (there are some kids who play guitar and one of her friends plays piano - but he doesn't seem to have any skills in helping them to work as an ensemble - he suggested she and her friend play a duet for assembly the following day on one occasion and that they download the music from the internet - her friend has never played a duet with another child, so would have had no idea of where to begin. In the end, daughter played a solo - one of her pieces that she was doing with her cello teacher. We are grateful for the performance opportunity, but a little alarmed about the unrealistic expectations of the teacher! - who is supposed to be a music specialist

Doing some practice in lesson time was one strategy I suggested (took the pressure off at home, as Dora said!) - she has also taken her theory homework in to the lesson and done it there. I'm not a teacher, so am not sure how feasible it would have been for her to have the chance to work on some improvisation skills (she doesn't do this with either of her private teachers) - but this could have been fun and a way of developing her ear and a different type of ability. Perhaps working with some computer based aural training programs (if it had to be computer based)? ie Auralia. He could even have taught her some basic guitar skills (how to read chords in guitar notation, as she has done a fair bit of work on chords as part of her piano course - the Alfred series - or how to fit chords to a melody). This might have been combined with the guitar kids, so they could have worked on a piece together.

I don't really know enough about how Audacity works to know whether there are other possible ways of combining her skills with what the other students were doing - and I do understand that teachers only have a limited amount of time to devote to a class, so a child like my daughter, who is very well off in terms of musical experience, becomes less of a priority. I'm hoping that her music lessons next year when she moves on to high school will allow for a wider range of experiences - perhaps exposure to music genres that she hasn't heard before (ragas? Chinese opera? whatever......as long as it widens her horizons), looking at how music fits into different cultures and what purposes it serves, placing music in the context of its time.......bet the teachers here could come up with much better ideas than me, but those would just be some items on my wishlist (would love her to have the chance to do some Kodaly training too!) if there were unlimited resources and time (yeah, right...)

I'm watching this thread with interest to see what other folk come up with!
Wolfnotes

I do fall into the unhappy category.

Strangely I didn't have huge expectations from school music. What I wanted was a bit of recognition on the part of the music teacher. Not a big fuss or public show, quite acknowledgement of her playing skills. Perhaps some extension work (as provided in other classes when someone has completed a task).

I thought my daughter would learn something rather than nothing in the three years. I didn't want specially tailored lessons and nor did she. Class Music shouldn't be about playing keyboard lessons after lesson. There were lots of elements of music that she knew nothing about and would have benefitted from covering.

The most frustrating thing for her was having her "talent" ignored, shunned and still having an achievement level of 4a in October last year, seven months before taking GCSE Music. She hated being sat at the back of the class on every whim of the teacher it felt like she was being punished.

I think you have already done much more than my daughter's teacher as you've thought about your pupil in a positive way. I would be very suprised if you were anything like my daughter's music teacher in terms of personality, professionalism or ability to deliver.

Hmm . . I think the classroom stuff does not need to be a problem. (Only speaking from my experiences though) Both children entered Year 7 (in different schools with very different music depts) at about grade 6 on their first instruments and having passed the dreaded G5 Theory. Class Music lessons were simple but they enjoyed being good at something, (without being unbearable I hope!) and in both cases the teacher asked us whether we should give them extra work (stuff from the Years above, arranging for school band, choir, composition etc) or let them work with a less able group. They were not the only ones finding it easy and most of the children in that situation opted to work with children who were not as used to music - to the enjoyment and benefit of all. We found that the problems came from parents who felt their children should be pushed on and on (or objected to their child 'teaching') . . . why? Life is tough enough and if there is a little corner of it that is a breeze then yay to that. And teaching is one of the best ways to learn about yourself and your capabilities . . .

I must admit I toyed with the idea of Music GCSE early . .but both children refused as they wanted to learn with their mates! And I'm glad they did, both forged great relationships with the music department and felt there was a corner of the school where they were always welcome.I don't buy the idea that they will get bored and give up . . .who's the adult here? They don't lack ambition, oldest one is a post-grad music student, youngest has Diploma and A* at GCSE. I was told by a very wise Ed Psyche, that I met at a meeting once, that we parents should stop making life tough when it doesn't have to be as it will get pretty tough all on its own!

I think there was more frustration from the standard of the ensembles and the lack of commitment to them from other children. However if they had been amazing athletes or rugby players, I would not have been nagging the school to make the school team better but doing county trials to find a team that suited their levels. This is what we did with the music, they both hopped on trains on a Saturday, crossed the county and made their music and new friends that way. One thing I was always firm on was that they should stick with school ensembles and never give the impression that they felt they were too good for them. . . . it's quite a sight to see your child who holds a high ranking seat in NYO sitting in the thirds in the school band with a big grin on his face and having a blast!

As for solo opportunities, not sure it is the school's job. However, everytime a Grade exam loomed my son's non musical tutor (for most of the time it was a sports coach) would ask for him to be allowed to play in assembly. Any child could do this, and I think it's good to make your own solo opportunities, even at this age.

I think perhaps controversially that the noise is often made by parents who are not prepared to be flexible and expect to leave their child at the school gates and leave it all up to the staff to sort out. I appreciate that perhaps we struck lucky with such helpful and able staff who seemed to keep everyone of all levels motivated.
The expectation I had of the Music staff was to recognise ability and communicate with me if their was a concern. Once the lines of communication were open and we knew what was going on, they had my total support.

I think that is exactly what I wanted from my daughter's music teacher. Sadly it was something she wasn't able to give.

Maybe the biggest thing is....don't think you have to do it all yourself! Peer groups can do a lot (with a little adult presence to ward off arson, manslaughter etc.)

Son's biggest hassle with school music groups is lack of time. He doesn't particularly want special treatment, but is frustrated when time is wasted. Homework plus main instrument(s) plus piano plus theory plus choir plus band instrument = ouch!

Maybe the biggest lure for getting a kid who is pretty busy with another instrument involved with school music is to offer them time/place to get some of their other practice done at school? Alternatively...as long as they practice their part at home, perhaps they can take one practice a week off to catch up with their other music?

Son reckons that "school music isn't something that you learn, it's just something that you do, like running round the sports field for PE. Nobody tells you how to do it or whether you're doing it right, you just do it." He seems to be happy singing along with everybody else - and happy that his enthusiasm infects his classmates.

As mentioned, learning about musical history and different musical genres is a big plus for kids whose instrumental lessons are strictly technical. For the same reason, school music is a great opportunity for instrumentalists to sing all kinds of genres!

My son has just started year 7, so I'm not sure how the music will pan out. I do know that he has already received 2 commendations in class music, so his knowledge is being recognised, and he has been put on the music enrichment programme, where a professional musician is coming into school to take groups of instumentalists to learn how to play in an ensemble.

He has differentiated his only music homework so far himself - they were asked to write 8 bars of rhythm in 4/4 - I suggested he made it syncopated, so he wrote an 8 bar syncopated ostinato and a counterrhythm over the top! We wait to see what the teacher makes of it!

The thing that makes him cross is that he has 2 art lessons a week but only 1 music - he hates art! But I suppose it's good for those that like art. At least he does both, and 3 lessons of D&T. I know of some schools near here that alternate these subjects, so they only do music for 1 term!

Allowing a child to "teach" is really an excellent way of enabling them to deepen their own learning. My daughter has a close friend starting in Theory Club at Grade 3 level and she is helping him. I'm delighted. It gives her a chance to shine with him, it reinforces her theory and best of all it encourages her to talk.
Allowing a child a subject which they can "coast" is no bad thing either. My daughter is a very hard working child and a lesson a week where she can relax a little is good.
Playing in the training band allows her to play with her peers and enjoy the social side of playing. Not everything she does has to stretch her at all times.
Dora

I was just thinking...apart from notmusimum, I don't think any of us have children doing school music at exam level, so our expectations are much more along the lines of "Kid is able to get something out of school music without either feeling like a freak or being put down constantly."

Teachers can sometimes be a bit excessively wary...a parent who says "My kid has always loved music, and is looking forward to XYZ" probably means just that! Teacher may be thinking "I've known hundreds of kids every bit as talented as little Polly Piannerplonker here" - but that's just as it should be. I doubt if most of us parents seriously think that a school music teacher has never met a musical kid before!

As a school music teacher, you probably see a wider range of musical abilities than private instrumental teachers do...including those for whom school music is the one tenuous engagement they have with school, and those who have big problems with some other aspect of schoolwork. Nothing as insufferable as a know-it-all adolescent, and the less the know the more attitude they tend to have, but heck, they grow out of it. I get the impression (from the teacher's forum ) that the desired private instrumental student is the bright all-rounder who is a "good sport" about their music...and shares the teacher's social background. Let's hope that most school music teachers have their doors and windows a bit wider open!

P.S. "Lots of parents" seem unhappy? Really?

Thankfully I no longer have a child doing school music There are other parents with children following the exam path with obstructive teachers.

I think I would have been more than happy if the teacher had conducted the class in a reasonable manner. We certainly weren't looking for special treatment, just the happy recognition that child was more musically experienced than her peers. Even being allowed to help in class would have been a bonus over what actually happened.

Perhaps that's where I made the mistake...... I did tell the teacher that daughter was looking forward to school music and would be happy to participate in musical activities. I definately wasn't implying my child was talented only that she was interested. Seriously I don't think anything we did or didn't do, in the first two years, would have fundamentally changed the situation. I'm not sure that anything would have been that different if I hadn't complained towards the middle of year 9.

To be blunt her tactics are to put people off so she doesn't have to run anything after school, hostility is created to avoid having to give support/recognition. Her behaviour pushes everyone away. Whilst I appreciate that other parents are in a similar situation with poor teaching and lack of knowledge I don't think that is purely the case here.

I am in a slightly different position, perhaps best described as "dreading what will happen in school music"! I relatively recently trained as a primary school teacher and was looking forward to seeing how the music programme worked, as when I was at school music wasn't compulsory. Well, there were virtually no instrumentalists or even people with experience of school music among the group, as like me most were at school when music wasn't compulsory so they didn't get much more than singing hymns.

We were grouped up and given tasks to do that we were supposed to basically repeat with our classes of children. The tasks were, for an instrumentalist, mind-numbingly simple. I personally could see how they could be expanded to give freedom to an experienced player, but the tutor was averse to allowing me to do that. We were told over and over how these lessons were good for "everyone" no matter what their level of experience. I would describe them more as common denominator lessons. In perspective, as a player with more than one grade 8 standard instruments, conservatoire standard and 3 years in army music I was relegated to a corner to go "ding" on a glockenspiel. On one note. There were then a few sessions on making up new words to public domain tunes and that was about it. Nothing on critical listening, nothing on using instruments in more detail, and they didn't know what to do with me on the "learn to play the recorder" sessions - I have my grade 7, what would you like me to learn?

If this is what is being put in to the next generation of teachers I dread to think what is going to be put out again!

I definitely think a programme that involves a lot of listening and general musicianship serves the instrument players as much as the musical novices, but it's all about planning to include different levels, if it's about making a piece of music to represent something then one child can put in an involved little improv on the cello and another can bash some untuned percussion and they each get out at the level they are able to put in, as they each meet the learning objective of creating a mood.

ARGH, ARGH, ARGH.

I am a primary music specialist, trained in (and besotted with) the Kodály approach - and my heart SINKS when I read posts such as yours, RoseRodent.

A few years ago the British Kodály Academy had some funding which meant that we could offer a day's free training to every teacher training institution in the country. Guess how many took up the offer?

ONE.

And many of them couldn't even be bothered to reply .

I do a lot of training teachers and basically we're trying to pick up the pieces of poor musical education as children, followed by p*sspoor musical education at college.

BAH.

ONE??!!
That is really quite sad, as is the previous post.
What ever happened to spontaneous teaching, and responding to the needs of the moment and of the individual? Are they trying to eliminate thinking and turn us all into mindless idiots? The box within which we're all allowed to think is getting smaller....

I think the answer to the question in your second sentence is...YES...

I had the idea that secondary schools could group their year seven forms into their special interests. You could have a football form, a form for those who play an instrument and so on. Even if all the instrumentalists wre at different levels they would have more in common as regards teaching than instrumentalists and non-instrumentalists.

School music round here is diabolical. The local high school now has no band, no choir, nothing. The primary schools aren't much better. They think they're doing something wildly unusua and speciall to be going to Young Voices for the first time (alonmg with 500 other children...I don't think so!). It's no wonder hardly anyone learns to play an instrument because there's nothing for them to do with it at school. Without willing and encouraging parents they have to be unrealistically self-motivated.

I wouldn't want my children pigeonholed at age 11. I want them to be trying lots of different things and if they want to change track at, say, age 13 that is absolutely fine with me.
I suspect the trick is to get the right staff in place and give them the support they need rather than start organising children.
Dora

Some children would want to be in every form, and some would feel at home in none!

Yes, I like the idea of peer groups getting involved - although agree that you need a bit of adult guidance (I think part of the problem with my daughter's school music class is that the teacher leaves the class pretty much to their own devices. As red-blooded year sevens, they are only too glad to take the opportunity to muck around and do precious little.........in adult terms, that is! Plenty happening in terms of group dynamics, however.....)

There are lots of examples of musicians crossing genres and working in different ways. As a cellist myself, Yo Yo Ma springs immediately to mind - and my daughter loves listening to him, while in the process experiencing a multitude of different ideas about what playing the cello and working as a musician can involve. Anything from tangos to Appalalchian folk songs! and working with all sorts of other types of instruments and singers. Now if only those guitarists and the drummer and the kid who plays piano and my daughter and the other kid who plays viola could be shown how to work together........then get the other kids into singing along with them or beatboxing or rapping or whatever.......and THEN record it on Audacity and the kids who are into this stuff could mix it and produce their own version - well wouldn't that get them all excited about music plus get them working as a group and respecting each others different talents and interests??? And yes, enthusiasm is infectious, both when it comes from kids and when it comes from teachers - especially if you link it to something which intrigues kids. Would be more than happy for my daughter to teach other kids (she already does this in the school orchestra and it is good for all concerned) - as long as she got some help with the teaching process and wasn't expected to do the crowd control thing (which I know ain't easy, having had the chance to work with the year 6/7s a few years back on mental health issues.......eeek!)

Singing is just so important, for all sorts of reasons - I know singing in the choir has helped my daughter enormously with her instrumental music, but also got her sharing music and working with other kids from her year who don't play instruments, which has been lovely and built all sorts of bonds (some of the kids are chosen each year to perform in the South Australian Festival of Music as part of one of the choirs - it lasts two weeks and kids from all over the State take part, including kids from huge distances away in the country). Unfortunately the perennial problem of boys being turned off choir is true for our school, which really troubles me (partly because my second child is a boy and I hate the idea of him being put off singing - at 6, he warbles happily and I am going to try to encourage this for as long as possible!). Not sure what you do about this.......but on my list to find out! And agree completely - singing lots of different types of genres means as many kids as possible become engaged and the others get their minds stretched, which is so enormously important particularly for adolescents with all that pruning and rewiring going on. Not to mention that it is a real blast to sing as a group.........

Wolfnotes

With Halka and Dora.

Have to say Emsoboes averagely mixed form have always been very supportive of her musicality. I think if everyone in the form had the same interest it would introduce unhealthy competition.

Yes! Keep them mixed up, both have mine love the fact that some of their friends couldn't care less about music, haven't got a clue what an orchestra does because they have never seen one . . . . a nice break from the 'what grade are you on?' brigade!
And the best tutor group tutor my son (keen on sport but hopeless at it) had at school was a rugby coach with a fearsome reputation who told him that he had utmost respect for the dedication and practice required to do what he did musically and who would fight his corner whenever staff were on his case about work. Support for musicians comes from the most unexpected places!

But most people are keen for their children to be in ability groups. What's the difference? I'd have loved mine to have been with other musicians rather than having to spend years paying one finger tunes on the keyboard and learning absolutely nothing.

Our school sorts into ability groups in subsets. So Maths is alone. Science is alone, Languages are a group and everything else is together.
Since my daughter has a major language difficulty she is in the top sets for Maths and Science and the middle sets for everything else.
She gets lots of time with other musicians. All day Saturday in our case but she also play with 2 senior groups in school as well as 2 senior groups out of school. Plus she goes to a Theory club at school which is attracting the musicians, though she is the only one preparing for Grade 6.
She gets one 50 minute music lesson in school a week and we can afford to just let her have fun in that class. It isn't like, say Maths, which is my subject, where what happens in school is a major part of anyone's maths time.
In my case if I wanted to fight school, and I don't, it would be over her language not her music. Fortunately school is on the case.
Dora

I can't see there's much fun in having to sit at a crummy keyboard for week after week. I can see that you could do it better, but that hasn't happened in my experience. If the ones who played an instrument could go and practice for their music lesson that would be fantastic.

Ho ho, both sons have had ability grouping in school occasionally (it's a concept that Japanese schools are not very comfortable with).

The way it works here is that classes are pooled and then re-divided by ability for certain subjects, so "groups" are still class-sized groups of 30 or 40.

End result:

1) Lower stream gets good English teacher, presumably on the grounds of greater need. Although school is noted for English education and many students have a great interest in foreign languages, the upper stream gets a teacher who is among the least able English teachers I have encountered.

2) Streams are supposed to be divided by ability, but are in fact divided into small group of 10 delinquents and "everybody else". Small group undoubtedly need remedial teaching, but who also can only be handled by the toughest (and most experienced) teacher, who teaches them multiplication in two places. "Everybody else" does the exam curriculum with a teacher who has not yet completed her training...

For some reason, I'm quite happy with unstreamed classes!

This is happening in daughter's school at the moment in the quest to make sure everyone gets 5 GCSE's. It's not doing the top set any favours at all.




I can understand your frustration and you are right to feel that way. Being stuck at a keyboard doing mundane stuff just isn't acceptable.

I faught school mostly because of daughter being offered GCSE and the teacher failing to deliver it adequately. I don't think ability sets would have changed very much in our case because daughter was in a musically able group after school.

I think the problem with music teaching in school is training. Some teachers will receive good training. Others will have experience and passion from their own music making. I believe where things fall apart is when the teacher themselves is not a widely educated musician, or don't have strong interest, coupled with poor training.