I have been playing my cello for about 6 months now and having lessons for the same amount of time.

Things have been going along well, apart that is from the D string.

I am trying to get something close to a nice tone, however, as soon as I play any note on the D I get odd sounds, I have tried more bow pressure more finger pressure etc... to no avail.

If I play an open D then no problem.

My teacher says that sometimes it happens and that once I can play in tune and am able to play vibrato then all will be well.

It is probably me. It is annoying though!

Has anyone else had a similar problem? I could get the D string changed or just be patient and wait until I improve?

Hi Tomo - from the title of this thread I am guessing that you think the cause of the funny sound is a wolf? If you have only been playing for 6 months you probably haven't started playing in fourth position yet, but a wolf tends to be most obvious in 4th position on the G string, and less so on the D string. My cello has a thumper of a wolf on the F in this position (fourth finger in 4th position) and an annoying wolf on the D string (second finger 1st position), which I gather is quite common - until I got my new cello 2 years ago I couldn't understand what all the fuss about this wolf thing was........but more resonant cello meant I found out pretty quickly! However wolfs (wolves? hmmmm, I wonder?) on all notes on the D string in first position would be fairly unusual, I would have thought. A wolf gives a wah-wah-wah sort of sound, but there are other things which can give funny sounds on certain strings from time to time - buzzes, rattles, I get a weird ring playing D on my G string.......drives me nuts at times. It's worth getting your teacher to play the cello themselves to see if they can hear what you are hearing - that should sort out if it is technique or a cello-related issue. Haven't experimented with changing strings (mine came with Larsens) as it is a bit of an expensive hobby and I'm not convinced different strings help all that much - if it is a wolf, you can get wolf eliminators in various shapes and sizes either to put on the string or stick to the cello itself. I also understand using a different bow can help (ooh, there's another expensive hobby!!) and experimenting with different bow speeds and vibrato (I'm just working on getting my vibrato to relax - oh for that wide slow vibrato to just magically appear ) One day I will get around to getting our luthier to fiddle with mine, but as it would mean leaving the cello with him for a week or more, am in no hurry (I HATE leaving my cello at the luthier), I have plenty to work on technique wise to improve my sound

Good luck with getting your sound to improve - I know how frustrating it can be when you can't work out what is going wrong

Wolfnotes

So has mine, and my bass has one (useful for ff rather than worrying) in the corresponding position: G on the A string. Does anyone know why upper strings don't suffer from them? or do they? I've never heard a violinist complaining of one.

It's not at all uncommon to find a wolf note on a violin on the Gstring, 2nd octave in the C/C#/D region.

Well it's nice to know it's not just the lower strings who suffer with this problem - but I don't think I've ever heard a violinist complaining about a wolf........are violinists just more tolerant folk or are wolf notes on violins less obvious? My wolf is really irritating when I am trying to play beautiful long soft notes (wah-wah-wah.......or is that me weeping with frustration??? ) - it certainly is one of the determining factors when working out on which string to play a note!! Seem to remember having read somewhere that the location of a wolf has to do with the frequency at which the instrument resonates and an interference pattern developing between the two......(goes off to brush up on physics, a science which she learnt many, many years ago and which is gradually re-appearing on the horizon as daughter approaches the secondary school years.......)

Wolfnotes

I never heard that before, but I think it is exactly right. A wolf is what you would expect if you had an air resonance and a wood (plate) resonance that differed in frequency by a few Hertz.

IIRC, lutiers who work by ear usually ensure that the lowest top plate resonance and the lowest air resonance of a violin differ by about a tone.[1] They know from the design what the lowest air resonance will be (in principle they can know all the air resonance frequencies, but I don't know how many of them they measure). The wood is more difficult. They can knock on the plates and listen to the pitch as they work on them, picking out the lowest frequency, and although building a plate into the sound box will change the frequency, that is predictable and they can allow for it. The problem, especially for a traditional lutier without laboratory instruments, is that variations in wood density and stiffness across a plate will change the frequency relationships among its vibratory modes, so it is difficult to predict where two of the higher resonance frequencies will be nearly equal, and even more so to predict the size of the difference.

[1] I don't know about the other members of the violin family, but I would expect them to be similar.

The variation of the strength of a wolf note from one string to another is also interesting. I would guess that this is because of the asymmetry of the internals of stringed instruments: one leg of the bridge (bottom string side) is supported by the bass bar, which excites the belly strongly and the back hardly at all, the other by the belly near the sound post, so more of its energy is transferred to the back, and less of it into the air.[2] This suggests that the third string excites air resonances more strongly than the second string does, and is consistent with the wolf resulting from air/wood interference.

[2] Because if belly and back move together, the volume is unchanged.

Any lutiers or acousticians like to comment?

Most of the luthiers I know (and I know some of the best in Europe) pay no attention whatsoever to matching/tuning air/body resonances (at least not intentionally). I was never taught to do this. There are some makers who make a big thing about using a scientific approach. Their violins sound no better (actually often worse) than those who just know by experience how the plates should "feel" in order to get a good sound. Obsession with acoustic measurements/tap tones etc often seems to be the province of amateur, rather than pro violin makers.

Thanks for your replies. Interesting stuff.

The funny thing is ..... I am a sound engineer (amongst other titles!), however I am more used to dealing with electronic -analog/digital- resonance.

There is something going on (gut feeling) with my D string, although the more I try experimenting with technique the more I am convinced that I am the weakest link! (story of my life Lol!)

After all I am the one to make the string buzz!

If I apply heavy pressure, no problem, apart that is from poor tone quality.

The wah-wah sounds come once I attempt to play quietly.

I had a similar problem when learning to play the sax. My tone was horrid.

It's funny that as one becomes more experienced these niggley problems vanish! They are usually replaced by other frustrations!

Most interesting - it would seem that the experienced luthiers are incorporating a whole lot of scientific principles into their work but without needing to quantify those principles in a numeric sense, if you see what I mean. My hubby is an engineer by training and worked on a project with his mother years ago (she is a physio working with disabled children) relating to expert systems where they attempted to break down exactly what she did in terms of working out the ideal type of wheelchair or seating required for each child - she has enormous experience and just "knows" by working with a child what will work, but it is possible to "unpack" that knowledge to some extent. I guess the same is true of the luthiers (and for them, there is no point to working out the science behind what they do, as from what you say, it makes little difference to the end product and experience produces a better result). For the rest of us who are interested in science, it makes for a most intriguing puzzle! And I would dearly love to have a reliable strategy for fixing my wolf (the metal attachment on the string does move it, but changes in humidity seem to move it back and it is SUCH a pain to have to fiddle with it, would rather just put up with it) - but perhaps the trade off would be losing some other desirable qualities in the tone of the cello, which I would not like. So many variables...!



Oh yes, you are soooo right about other frustrations replacing the initial problems. (Mind you, it did help enormously when I replaced my very elderly and not terribly nice cello and extremely dead bow - the cello cracked in the Australian summer after we installed refrigerated air-conditioning, alas, needless to say, new cello is carefully guarded from the air-conditioner now and has a Dampit to maintain its humidity. They were my first cello and bow and I had no idea just how dreadful they were until I went in to see if the cello could be repaired - you should have seen the look of horror on the face of the lady in the shop.........and the look of amazement on my face when I played one of the shop cellos to choose a new bow while they were looking at my old cello - could not BELIEVE the difference, I had assumed the horrible noises I was making were all me........well, some of them were, but not all of them!)

Still a bit confused about whether you have a buzz or a wolf? Lots of things can cause a buzz (drove myself nuts with a buzz once, took it in to the luthier and we worked out in the end that it was the rosin I was using and teacher pinned hers down to a whole lot of gunk under her strings at the nut - like cleaning anywhere, amazing what grime you can find once you start taking things to pieces . Daughter's first cello had a loose fine tuner which gave problems if you weren't careful - good incentive not to be lazy and only use the fine tuners instead of the pegs - am guilty of this as am very twitchy about breaking the A string, having had one snap in my face, urrrgh). But wah-wah-wah sounds wolfy, not buzzy.

Experimenting with bowing definitely helpful - feedback from teacher even more so! Listening to teacher and actually doing what they tell you to only to find that gee.....they were right all along - priceless! (and telling teacher so at next lesson - even better!)

Wolfnotes

Do all your strings match? Appearances may be deceiving. It may be that you have a slightly different one on the D, perhaps a softer one. Different types of strings need different handling and some just need your fingers to go down with a light touch and others like an anvil dropping. Some strings like a more or less powerful rosin to grip it more or less smoothly - I am far from an expert in different strings, only just starting to try some variety myself, but I do know from other instruments I have played, particularly baroque ones, that the handling of different strings can be surprisingly different.

I too suggest getting your teacher to play with your complete set-up, cello, rosin, bow, spike holder, anything at all that might be the cause. If they don't have the same problem you know its a technique thing. If they do experience the problem then it could be all sorts of things, and some of them are incredibly simple to fix. Like my old desk buddy who tracked the mysterious 'viola fault' to some very large earrings!

This list might help:
http://www.abcviolins.com/buzz.html

It never hurts to get a second opinion, so if you have an instrument shop you trust you could ask them if they think you should change the string - strings deteriorate long before they snap. So long as you trust the shop not to sell you a string you don't need you may as well try swapping it because you will still have the old one as a spare.

It's just going to continue to frustrate you if you are experiencing a sound that others at the same stage of learning are not. If you speak to other beginner cellists who don't have this problem then the "it will all cure itself when you learn vibrato" answer doesn't sound very helpful. And anyway, you should always be able to produce clear notes without vibrato to play scales or authentic baroque music.

Oh how fabulous! Can identify with this as have had the same thing happen with a zipper on a jacket that I was wearing. And I actually had to re-pierce one of my ears when I first started lessons, as I got so used to leaving my dangly earrings out and forgetting to put them back in that the hole nearly sealed over I now have a collection of suitably "cello-friendly" earrings.....and T-shirts with sequins on the front are decidedly OUT.

BTW, RoseRodent, as a viola player (or do you prefer to be a violist?), do you have problems with wolf notes? And if so, whereabouts on the viola do they appear, seeing as we are collecting examples of typical locations on each member of the string family?

Wolfnotes

The earing anecdote is great!

It reminds me of the old ish VW advert with the squeak.

Since my last post I have played a few times and tried very hard to combat my wah-wah effect. More pressure works for a while, however, it usually comes back as I start to relax...ho hum.

I'll just have to live with it for now and hope that as I become a better player the problem will go away.

Just an update:

I had another lesson on Monday. I mentioned my wah-wah effect again and got my teacher to have a play.

Well as soon as she bowed the D string I heard it start to go..... she did however correct it through shear experience, but said there was a problem as she couldn't "get into" the string.

I will be off to the Luthier soon. I'm so glad it's not just me.

She said that maybe the sound post has moved a bit or maybe just a naff string.

We shall see what the Luthier can do

Tomo, that's wonderful! It must have been such a relief to hear the same problem happening for your teacher . I hope it turns out to be a very fixable problem and that your cello is a much nicer instrument to play afterwards. Good on your teacher too for believing you and trying the cello out herself.

Now I'm off to answer your question on bows.......see you soon!
Wolfnotes

I do feel vindicated....... such a relief.

My cello (no name as that's a girl thing! Lol), makes a wonderfull sound apart from the D.

I drop it off to the Luthier tommorrow, so we shall see.

I will report back once I have it back, hopefully Saturday.

Thanks for all of your interest. You really are a great bunch of people

I got my Cello back after it's visit to the Luthier.

The wolf note has gone/moved now. He put a small cylinder type device on the G string and said to move it up or down if the note comes back, as it may do with a change in humidity etc.

The only poor notes are generated by me now! Which is to say most of them.....Lol.

Seriously, its fine. I am able to play a piece that sounds similar to music.

Thanks for all of your input. Most interesting.

At least that confirms to you that it was a genuine wolf, cos he put on a wolf note eliminator and the wolf has been... elimnated. Does what it says on the tin, as they say. Bye bye wolfie.