I was shopping for a new case for my violin/viola and found that most of the decent ones come with some kind of kit to monitor humidity. Now I am sure some people will draw a huge intake of breath, but I have never done this, nor do I have a Dampit or anything similar for my viola. I live in Northern Europe (Scotland) and I no longer go touring with it, so as far as I am aware humidity is relatively stable, or at least it changes by the long season rather than by the hour. I suppose I put the heating on and off, and it does stay in an unheated house sometimes when we go away on holiday. I am now having a total panic that it's going to develop all sorts of probelms and am on the verge of splashing out on kit to monitor and maintain humidity, but thought I would find out quite how much it matters to me personally. I have always just kept it away from extreme temperatures, brought it up to heat slowly inside the case when coming in from outdoors, that sort of thing. I thought Dampits and the like were for people who went to Singapore to do a concert then came back to a heated house in Europe.
Should I be doing something?
Full Version: Should I Worry About Humidity?
Hi Rose
I'm speaking from an Aussie perspective mostly - we have long dry summers here and a couple of years back we installed refrigerated airconditioning to replace our old evaporative conditioner (which was not working too well over a few very humid summers - of course, no sooner did we make the switch then we went into drought...
). Sadly, I found out the hard way that stringed instruments don't like low humidity........because my old cello suffered a nasty crack which was not deemed worth repairing when I took it into the luthier - it wasn't a fabulous cello and there was a silver lining as I got my lovely new cello, but since then I have been very careful to avoid drying it out too much. I do have a Dampit and I don't put the airconditioning on in that room (or if I do, I move the cello unless if I am playing it at the time - it does get pretty hot and uncomfortable otherwise when the mercury is at 42C!!) Teacher's cello got a crack too when she visited New York with her orchestra in their winter - so she now uses a Dampit (hers is a much nicer instrument, of course!) Hubby is from Singapore and we have family over there, so I can speak with some knowledge here too - the humidity outside isn't so much the issue but rather the fact that there is airconditoning just about everwhere (not in the poorer houses, but everywhere else), so you get the same problem with drying out that I did with my cello. I realise that this may not help you in regards to Scotland (where are you, if you don't mind me asking? I have very happy memories of doing my elective medical student placement in Inverness many years ago - yup, that was certainly cold coming from sunny Australia!) - but hopefully someone else can comment on the risks for that side of the world.
Wolfnotes
I'm speaking from an Aussie perspective mostly - we have long dry summers here and a couple of years back we installed refrigerated airconditioning to replace our old evaporative conditioner (which was not working too well over a few very humid summers - of course, no sooner did we make the switch then we went into drought...
). Sadly, I found out the hard way that stringed instruments don't like low humidity........because my old cello suffered a nasty crack which was not deemed worth repairing when I took it into the luthier - it wasn't a fabulous cello and there was a silver lining as I got my lovely new cello, but since then I have been very careful to avoid drying it out too much. I do have a Dampit and I don't put the airconditioning on in that room (or if I do, I move the cello unless if I am playing it at the time - it does get pretty hot and uncomfortable otherwise when the mercury is at 42C!!) Teacher's cello got a crack too when she visited New York with her orchestra in their winter - so she now uses a Dampit (hers is a much nicer instrument, of course!) Hubby is from Singapore and we have family over there, so I can speak with some knowledge here too - the humidity outside isn't so much the issue but rather the fact that there is airconditoning just about everwhere (not in the poorer houses, but everywhere else), so you get the same problem with drying out that I did with my cello. I realise that this may not help you in regards to Scotland (where are you, if you don't mind me asking? I have very happy memories of doing my elective medical student placement in Inverness many years ago - yup, that was certainly cold coming from sunny Australia!) - but hopefully someone else can comment on the risks for that side of the world.Wolfnotes
I don't know the answer but I want to join you in the question!
I have my violin and double bass in an annexe 1 bed type of stand alone house at the bottom of the garden. As I don't live in there the heating was always off, I was getting worried that my instruments may not like being in a little house in temperatures between 0 and 10 degrees all the time so I have set two electric heaters in there on a timer....one to stay on all night for 10 to 12 hours, the other smaller one to come on for one hour at 4 separate time in the day.
Now I am wondering if my instruments would be 'more at risk' if staying in cold temperatures all the time or now that I have the heaters going on and trying to keep the temperature in there in double figures (ie 15 to 18 degrees).
I think I'll buy a hygrometer (is that what you call them? to measure humidity?)
I have my violin and double bass in an annexe 1 bed type of stand alone house at the bottom of the garden. As I don't live in there the heating was always off, I was getting worried that my instruments may not like being in a little house in temperatures between 0 and 10 degrees all the time so I have set two electric heaters in there on a timer....one to stay on all night for 10 to 12 hours, the other smaller one to come on for one hour at 4 separate time in the day.
Now I am wondering if my instruments would be 'more at risk' if staying in cold temperatures all the time or now that I have the heaters going on and trying to keep the temperature in there in double figures (ie 15 to 18 degrees).
I think I'll buy a hygrometer (is that what you call them? to measure humidity?)
One thing to bear in mind is that humidity is not the same as temperature. 
QUOTE(Flossie @ Oct 11 2009, 11:09 PM) 
One thing to bear in mind is that humidity is not the same as temperature.
Very true flossie, but doesn't temperature also affect wood?
for example I notice my wooden door at the back of the kitchen (leading to outside) that with different temperatures it gets more difficult to close as the wood slightly 'expands' so I was thinking it must happen to the bass and violin too and would this cause any cracks/etc?
I would say that within Europe, humidity should not be a problem, although you should consider using some form of humidification if you take your instrument on a plane, where cabin air can be very dry.
Large and rapid temperature swings can be very bad news and should be avoided wherever possible.
Large and rapid temperature swings can be very bad news and should be avoided wherever possible.
So long as the instruments are not near the heaters then the on/off nature of the heating shouldn't be a big deal - after all that's pretty much the way we all heat our houses these days, with a thermostat that kicks in and puts out a bit of heat then drops out again. Air is notoriously difficult to heat and cool, so if you have lots of it between the heater and the instruments then it will be unlikely to have rapidly changing temperatures. Probably a good addition to your setup would be a 'minimax' thermometer so you can check on not only the current temperature but how cold it got at its coldest and how warm at its warmest.
One thing to bear in mind is that humidity is not the same as temperature.
Whilst this is obviously true, there is a big relationship because warm air can retain more humidity than cold. It doesn't mean that it always does, that's different, but the saturation point of cold water with moisture is much lower than with warm air. There is, therefore, a tendency for cold air to be drier, but it's an inexact science at best, hence hygrometers. Some hot airs - those over a desert for example - are bone dry.
Probably the biggest issue I'd be looking at for the person keeping an instrument in the annexe is condensation. Such buildings are usually quite high in humidity rather than too low, but because the heat is going up and coming down again the humidity that could be held in the warmed air cannot stay in the cold air and will be released somewhere in the form of condensation against a nice cool, smooth surface. Just make sure that surface is a window rather than your instrument case!
So although I have never worried about these issues storing my viola inside a house in a mild climate, I would worry if I were storing it somewhere non-standard like a car, caravan or outbuilding. I suppose the question is how much is a humidity and temperature monitoring kit? How much are the instruments worth, in both money and sentimental value? Which is the higher figure?
I'd still like to know the answer, though!
QUOTE(Flossie @ Oct 11 2009, 11:09 PM)
One thing to bear in mind is that humidity is not the same as temperature.
Whilst this is obviously true, there is a big relationship because warm air can retain more humidity than cold. It doesn't mean that it always does, that's different, but the saturation point of cold water with moisture is much lower than with warm air. There is, therefore, a tendency for cold air to be drier, but it's an inexact science at best, hence hygrometers. Some hot airs - those over a desert for example - are bone dry.
Probably the biggest issue I'd be looking at for the person keeping an instrument in the annexe is condensation. Such buildings are usually quite high in humidity rather than too low, but because the heat is going up and coming down again the humidity that could be held in the warmed air cannot stay in the cold air and will be released somewhere in the form of condensation against a nice cool, smooth surface. Just make sure that surface is a window rather than your instrument case!
So although I have never worried about these issues storing my viola inside a house in a mild climate, I would worry if I were storing it somewhere non-standard like a car, caravan or outbuilding. I suppose the question is how much is a humidity and temperature monitoring kit? How much are the instruments worth, in both money and sentimental value? Which is the higher figure?
I'd still like to know the answer, though!
QUOTE(RoseRodent @ Oct 12 2009, 07:50 AM)
I'd still like to know the answer, though!
I thought I'd given you one!
QUOTE(DiscoPants @ Oct 12 2009, 09:00 AM)
QUOTE(RoseRodent @ Oct 12 2009, 07:50 AM)
I'd still like to know the answer, though!
I thought I'd given you one!
I always take answers with a "should" in them as hedging ones bets. If you mean that it will not be a problem I can relax, but if it shouldn't be a problem that doesn't console me that it is not a problem IYSWIM. Ah, semantics.
QUOTE(RoseRodent @ Oct 12 2009, 07:50 AM)
So long as the instruments are not near the heaters then the on/off nature of the heating shouldn't be a big deal - after all that's pretty much the way we all heat our houses these days, with a thermostat that kicks in and puts out a bit of heat then drops out again. Air is notoriously difficult to heat and cool, so if you have lots of it between the heater and the instruments then it will be unlikely to have rapidly changing temperatures. Probably a good addition to your setup would be a 'minimax' thermometer so you can check on not only the current temperature but how cold it got at its coldest and how warm at its warmest.
QUOTE(Flossie @ Oct 11 2009, 11:09 PM)
One thing to bear in mind is that humidity is not the same as temperature.
Whilst this is obviously true, there is a big relationship because warm air can retain more humidity than cold. It doesn't mean that it always does, that's different, but the saturation point of cold water with moisture is much lower than with warm air. There is, therefore, a tendency for cold air to be drier, but it's an inexact science at best, hence hygrometers. Some hot airs - those over a desert for example - are bone dry.
Probably the biggest issue I'd be looking at for the person keeping an instrument in the annexe is condensation. Such buildings are usually quite high in humidity rather than too low, but because the heat is going up and coming down again the humidity that could be held in the warmed air cannot stay in the cold air and will be released somewhere in the form of condensation against a nice cool, smooth surface. Just make sure that surface is a window rather than your instrument case!
So although I have never worried about these issues storing my viola inside a house in a mild climate, I would worry if I were storing it somewhere non-standard like a car, caravan or outbuilding. I suppose the question is how much is a humidity and temperature monitoring kit? How much are the instruments worth, in both money and sentimental value? Which is the higher figure?
I'd still like to know the answer, though!
that was an interesting science lesson
the heaters are not right next to the instruments, I think one of them is about 6 feet away from my bass (the one which comes on for an hour at a time 4 times in the day, the one which is on 12 hours is about 10 feet away).
How come the annexe would be more humid than the house if heated the same as the house? This is a proper brick built annex, it is 'proper' one bedroom/one living room/bathroom and kitchen corner little house, not a 'sturdy shed'.
I think the thermometer which keeps in memory the highest and lowest temperature and the time of the day will be a 'handy tool' to have along the hygrometer, they are on my shopping list now
QUOTE(RoseRodent @ Oct 12 2009, 07:47 PM)
QUOTE(DiscoPants @ Oct 12 2009, 09:00 AM)
QUOTE(RoseRodent @ Oct 12 2009, 07:50 AM)
I'd still like to know the answer, though!
I thought I'd given you one!
I always take answers with a "should" in them as hedging ones bets. If you mean that it will not be a problem I can relax, but if it shouldn't be a problem that doesn't console me that it is not a problem IYSWIM. Ah, semantics.
OK. I would say that humidity (or lack of it) is nothing to worry about in a normal domestic environment in the UK. What you need to be much more concerned about are large swings in both humidity and temperature. The one place I would say that a case humidifier (but not a Dampit stuck in the instrument) is essential is in an aircraft. If you board a plane in Glasgow (say) the drop in humidity once you're in flight will be huge.
Case hygrometers (except on rather expensive cases) are usually very poorly calibrated and useless. They're just there as a cheap way to provide an appearance of "quality".
The main effect of temperature/humidity changes is to produce cracks in the top of the instrument. The likelihood of cracks occurring can be minimised by correct construction, eg not fitting the bottom saddle too tightly and using only very thin glue to hold the top on - so that the glue "pops" rather than the top cracking when it contracts/expands (like a mechanical "fuse")- an unglued seam is trivial to fix.
QUOTE(jojo @ Oct 12 2009, 08:08 PM)
How come the annexe would be more humid than the house if heated the same as the house? This is a proper brick built annex, it is 'proper' one bedroom/one living room/bathroom and kitchen corner little house, not a 'sturdy shed'.
Principally the type of heat that you have in there, as central heating is dry heat, electric heaters are not as drying, gas fires the wettest of them all, but also human activity and ventilation. In a place that is normally occupied doors and windows open and shut all day long and the various movements draw air through, where an undisturbed location of a similar nature will have less airflow. Next up is the size, as the condensation pools at places where heat meets cool, and if you have walls far apart you have less contact between hot and cold locations than if you have a really big space. I don't understand all of the mechanics of it as my contact with the subject is aviation weather exams, and it was more in the context of predicting forthcoming cloud cover for a longer non-instrument flight where you need to eyeball the ground, so it was just about where humidity comes from.
It is worth noting that cold and very dry is just as bad as hot and very dry, but, too much humidity can also be detrimental to instruments made of wood.
In an ideal world a musical instrument is happiest in about 45% to 55% humidity. Less than 40% can start to become a problem and in excess of 75% can start to saturate the wood grain itself - which can also crack the wood.
As far as caring for a musical instrument is concerned, low atmospheric humidity is far easier to deal with than high.
In an ideal world a musical instrument is happiest in about 45% to 55% humidity. Less than 40% can start to become a problem and in excess of 75% can start to saturate the wood grain itself - which can also crack the wood.
As far as caring for a musical instrument is concerned, low atmospheric humidity is far easier to deal with than high.
QUOTE(AmandaL @ Oct 14 2009, 01:40 PM)
It is worth noting that cold and very dry is just as bad as hot and very dry, but, too much humidity can also be detrimental to instruments made of wood.
In an ideal world a musical instrument is happiest in about 45% to 55% humidity. Less than 40% can start to become a problem and in excess of 75% can start to saturate the wood grain itself - which can also crack the wood.
As far as caring for a musical instrument is concerned, low atmospheric humidity is far easier to deal with than high.
that's useful Amanda, so when I buy my hygrometer I'll know what to 'watch out for'
ps by the way, went to play Gandalf today (my bass) and it was 'hurt'
nothing to do with humidity hot or cold (I think anyway)
the piece of nylon thick string which holds the tailpiece to the bottom of the instrument (where there is 'that button type thing), snapped!
My Gandalf was standing there with its bridge on the floor, the tailpiece hanging off the loose strings all over the place.
Thankfully I could not find any dents or scratches caused by the tailpiece snapping off
so I'm taking him to the doctor tomorrow (my teacher's husband is also a luthier and I am due a lesson tomorrow).
QUOTE(jojo @ Oct 14 2009, 08:37 PM)
QUOTE(AmandaL @ Oct 14 2009, 01:40 PM)
It is worth noting that cold and very dry is just as bad as hot and very dry, but, too much humidity can also be detrimental to instruments made of wood.
In an ideal world a musical instrument is happiest in about 45% to 55% humidity. Less than 40% can start to become a problem and in excess of 75% can start to saturate the wood grain itself - which can also crack the wood.
As far as caring for a musical instrument is concerned, low atmospheric humidity is far easier to deal with than high.
that's useful Amanda, so when I buy my hygrometer I'll know what to 'watch out for'
ps by the way, went to play Gandalf today (my bass) and it was 'hurt'
nothing to do with humidity hot or cold (I think anyway)
the piece of nylon thick string which holds the tailpiece to the bottom of the instrument (where there is 'that button type thing), snapped!
My Gandalf was standing there with its bridge on the floor, the tailpiece hanging off the loose strings all over the place.
Thankfully I could not find any dents or scratches caused by the tailpiece snapping off
so I'm taking him to the doctor tomorrow (my teacher's husband is also a luthier and I am due a lesson tomorrow).
Poor Gandalf. Is the room mouse-proof?
QUOTE(Flossie @ Oct 14 2009, 08:44 PM)
Poor Gandalf. Is the room mouse-proof?
good thinking flossie!
but I think it is 'mouseproof' as there is no crooks/gaps for them to get in from, the only time the front door opens is when I go in or come out, I have never left it open even for a second without me being there/looking so I doubt it's a mouse, and the plastic string snapped off just near where those 'screwy bits are' which is right under the wide part of the tailpiece, a place a mouse could not get to.
but now you made me think, I might just buy one of those 'ultrasonic' things you plug in the electrical sockets and keep mice away (am not keen on mouse traps as I 'try' not to kill the things 'if I can help it')
just in case
Poor Gandalf! I should think it would take me some time to stop crying if this happened to my viola. Hope you are feeling OK. Sounds like the tailgut's just given up under the pressure of the strings, don't think there is much you could have done to prevent that.
Hope you are feeling OK. Sounds like the tailgut's just given up under the pressure of the strings, don't think there is much you could have done to prevent that.
Poor you, Jo! I hope the "doctor" is able to perform life-saving surgery and Gandalf is soon back on his feet - it is most distressing to be without your best mate and I bet you are getting withdrawal symptoms. Crossing my fingers for a good result.
Wolfnotes
Wolfnotes
QUOTE(Wolfnotes @ Oct 16 2009, 12:23 AM)
Poor you, Jo! I hope the "doctor" is able to perform life-saving surgery and Gandalf is soon back on his feet - it is most distressing to be without your best mate and I bet you are getting withdrawal symptoms. Crossing my fingers for a good result.
Wolfnotes
Doctor did an EXCELLENT job on the surgery!
Whilst I was happily playing 'Josephine' (one of the MANY bass my teacher has, lucky her!) her husband took Gandalf to the operating theatre (a workshop at the back of the house) and replaced the broken plastic string which once held its tail with a metal one (it's basically a break cable!), put his bridge back on and reinstated the soundpost which just went walkies inside Gandalf's belly!
Surgery took 15 minutes at most and was quite a cheap operation too! The new break cable should NEVER give so Gandalf is not going to lose his tail anymore and as a result he sounds a 'little' more 'brilliant' (the vibrations from brake cable give him a little more volume to his sound)
So a good end to the story
I love a happy ending!! And I am seriously jealous of your teacher, how wonderful to have a hubby who can fix your instrument so quickly........and so many basses! Would rather like to get my hands on a bass, just for a fiddle - I have eyed the basses at my daughter's orchestra longingly but I don't quite dare ask - wish my daughter had a friend who played bass 
. Made a proper fool of myself a couple of years ago when I was helping out with her orchestra and did some of the cello tuning (there are 40-50 kids in the orchestra, so a LOT of tuning to be done, as they are all primary aged and most can't tune properly yet...) - I could manage the basses if they did the peg turning (I just listened and picked whether the strings sounded sharp or flat, then told them what to do). After a time or two I suddenly realised that they didn't tune in fifths at all.......the shock in my voice when I said "that's a fourth" must have been quite amusing, but the very sweet kid who was playing at the time was quite patient with me, although he clearly thought that was a very OBVIOUS comment 
. Credibility NIL.....
Our luthier has a pair of long toothed curved surgical forceps which he uses to fish sound posts out of instruments - makes me feel very at home! (wonder if tools ever get left behind in string instruments like they sometimes do in patients - now THAT would be an interesting cause for a buzz or a rattle
Happy playing and may Gandalf stay in good shape now he has had his overhaul
Wolfnotes
And I am seriously jealous of your teacher, how wonderful to have a hubby who can fix your instrument so quickly........and so many basses! Would rather like to get my hands on a bass, just for a fiddle - I have eyed the basses at my daughter's orchestra longingly but I don't quite dare ask - wish my daughter had a friend who played bass . Made a proper fool of myself a couple of years ago when I was helping out with her orchestra and did some of the cello tuning (there are 40-50 kids in the orchestra, so a LOT of tuning to be done, as they are all primary aged and most can't tune properly yet...) - I could manage the basses if they did the peg turning (I just listened and picked whether the strings sounded sharp or flat, then told them what to do). After a time or two I suddenly realised that they didn't tune in fifths at all.......the shock in my voice when I said "that's a fourth" must have been quite amusing, but the very sweet kid who was playing at the time was quite patient with me, although he clearly thought that was a very OBVIOUS comment . Credibility NIL.....Our luthier has a pair of long toothed curved surgical forceps which he uses to fish sound posts out of instruments - makes me feel very at home! (wonder if tools ever get left behind in string instruments like they sometimes do in patients - now THAT would be an interesting cause for a buzz or a rattle
Happy playing and may Gandalf stay in good shape now he has had his overhaul
Wolfnotes
QUOTE(Wolfnotes @ Oct 16 2009, 08:44 AM)
I love a happy ending!!
And I am seriously jealous of your teacher, how wonderful to have a hubby who can fix your instrument so quickly........and so many basses! she's a very lucky lady, but not only they have loads of basses around the house, they own a string shop so at the shop they have cellos/violas and violins too!
Only basses at home as they both have been playing bass for years
I think when I reduced my hours in the NHS (one day! erm!) I will volunteer to clean/dust their shop (no money wanted, just a little play on the instruments now and again
)
QUOTE(jojo @ Oct 14 2009, 08:37 PM)
QUOTE(AmandaL @ Oct 14 2009, 01:40 PM)
It is worth noting that cold and very dry is just as bad as hot and very dry, but, too much humidity can also be detrimental to instruments made of wood.
In an ideal world a musical instrument is happiest in about 45% to 55% humidity. Less than 40% can start to become a problem and in excess of 75% can start to saturate the wood grain itself - which can also crack the wood.
As far as caring for a musical instrument is concerned, low atmospheric humidity is far easier to deal with than high.
that's useful Amanda, so when I buy my hygrometer I'll know what to 'watch out for'
Ok, now that I have a new member of the family (wooden clarinet has just joined Gandalf and Figaro in the 'music room', does not have a name yet) and as I have been thinking for a long time to buy some type of 'hygrometer', I went ahead and invested in a 'weather station' which has temperature and humidity monitoring.
Its a 'flashy' one, it gives 'trends' in the temperature and humidity and it has an inbuilt humidifier which you can set to be 'triggered' if humidity drops below a range you specify.
so...as I 'don't live' in the music studio (or mini house/annexe at bottom of garden) and don't have a clue what the temperature is in there apart from the 2 hours a day I spend in it (during which it is 17.5 to 18) and have NO clue so far what the humidity is, this 'robotic thing' will 'keep an eye' on my 'babies' 24hour a day!
I love gadgets
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