How long should I leave it before asking the school's Head of Music for my son to be allowed to either do his own theory work or practice one of his instruments during class music lessons?

The school knows he's musical - working towards G6 Clarinet and playing the sax - he plays in 3 of the school's groups, has been taken out of lessons to play to older pupils and plays in external orchestras - but he is bored stiff in his two timetabled curriculum music lessons and is never allowed to answer any of the questions even if the rest of the class don't know the answers. He knows why but is frustrated.

So, should I make the first move and ask for him to do other things during the class lessons or just let him get bored and risk disrupting the class?

I wouldn't ask for him to do other things, it's still very early days into year 7. As the class progresses onto more practical things he should be able to do the same activities with a greater level of complexity. It might be worth a quick call to his music teacher to ask what they are planning and just to let them know that he is bored.

We've had the same problems all last year with our daughter, who's Gd 7+ on her main instrument and Gd 5 on piano, to the point where she doesn't want to do anything to do with music at school. She'd already done gd 5 theory at start of Yr 6. She's now in yR 8 but our suggestions for letting her do practise hasn't been met with much enthusiasm as they think that she should try and integrate with her class even if it is something she knows very well!!
We've given up frankly and all she does in these lessons is sit at the back and daydream. She says that she doesn't try and get involved now as she used to last year because she got told a few times for saying things that were beyond what was being taught and answer any questions as its no use. When I spoke to the teacher last, she had a number of excuses including that she wouldn't know of this if she wasn't told (and this is after we've spoken to her a couple of times at the start of Yr 7). what a waste of time!

Given everything we've been through I have every sympathy. Not sure that you will be able to resolve it if school hasn't already taken the initiative. Practical probably won't offer any bigger challenge.

There are some threads in the parents forum on this issue as it is not unusual for children who are able musically to come across this attitude. My daughter would get frustrated at times but I tried to encourage just to take it easy during such lessons. After all she was being stretched musically elsewhere. I think though, I feel the most important issue was that my daughters musicality was recognised by the music teacher (which it was) and celebrated in extra curricular activities. As long as the teacher is well meaning - they are not superhuman and if we have talented children, sometimes we may have to just let things go. The music curriculum gets more interesting and specialist the further up the school the children go and they tend just to be with other musical kids from year 9 or 10 onwards. At the other end of the scale, I was impressed how the music teacher got my unmusical and uninterested son interested in Mozart opera! But as nonmusimum says a quiet and pleasant word is always a good idea.

It's worse when the school offers nothing or refuses to recognise the child as knowledgable as happened in our situation.

On the positive side there are extra musical activities to participate in and that's better than nothing. I do think there should be some defrentiated learning as there is in other subjects on some reasonable basis.





Sadly that's not always the case.

My daughter enjoys her class music lessons and actually said the other day that she wishes her timetable included more of them, and this is despite the fact that she finds herself in a group who are mostly not doing any other music. So, clearly it is possible for teachers to make these lessons of general interest.

Like Digby, I'd be inclined to wait a while and see how things work out. My daughter acknowledges that she finds the theory side of lessons a bit easy and dull but, as I said in one of the other threads about school music, it seems to me that school music lessons (for us, at least) offer something that instrumental lessons do not. So, she learns some music history, and about the characteristics of different genres of music, as well as doing composition. I actually feel she would miss out on something if she went off to practise one of her instruments. So, if you're lucky there may be good things in store...

Also, although my daughter was relatively advanced on cello/clarinet/recorder/voice at the start of secondary school she had no keyboard skills at that time. So, although people are often rather damning on these forums about the use of keyboards in school music lessons, in our case they were a novelty and led to my daughter taking up the piano part way through Yr 7. You don't say if your son already plays piano, but perhaps this, also, is something he will eventually take away from school music lessons?

Although I was reasonably able on the piano when I started secondary school music was a lovely lesson as we did lots of singing, learnt about opera and folk songs and had recitals from our very gifted teacher on his violin. Music at secondary school now seems to be based entirely around 'composing' on keyboards with a tiny bit of music history as part of this. I'm not surprised children who can already play hate it. I certainly would have done.

I suggested at primary school that my son should be able to practise his violin in maths lessons as he'd already done all the maths he was being 'taught', quite a lot of it twice. I was told this wasn't possible as he had to do maths. I protested that he wsn't doing any maths as he already knew what they were doing but the teacher was adamant that he had to do maths. So for a year he learnt no maths and couldn't use the time productively for music practice either.

Age 13 I had a very enlightened maths teacher who would regularly let me miss my maths lesson in order to practise my violin - since I was a long way ahead of the class in maths...

W

Your son's musical ability gives his school a bonus which is obviously an advantage to it I should see or write to the Headmaster immediately and point out that advantage, and suggest that the two periods of school music lessons are holding him back, as he is ahead of the work being done in class due to his previous study. With two extra periods in which to practice he will be of more advantage to the school.Busylizzie

The school may not see it that way. We were told daughter couldn't use the connecting practice room during music lessons due to health and safety issues. If she took ill there was no one there to help

Hmm yep we have a similar proble, my son is now in year 8. At parents evening last year I tried to find out from the music teacher if there was a chance for an extension for my son, hmm, what does your son play he said? The other music teacher that doesn't even teach him knew what he played, he has been asked on more than one occasion would he play in assembly.

Explained to the teacher that he wanted to go into the industry for a career, looking at composer/teacher / music technician. This teacher then spent the time talking about himself .........he's in the industry you know?

My son told us afterwards that the teacher didn't even know what his name was, he was always calling him another boy's name.

We have just accepted that he has his music outside of school and leave it at that. How we hoped he would have a different music teacher this year, alas no he has the same one!

ET

Sadly this does not seem uncommon in my experience. It's tough for the Bog Standard Secondary Music Teacher; out of 30 kids they may have a handful who play instruments "properly" (you know what I mean!), another half dozen who don't play but ARE interested, but then the rest just want to flick rubbers at each other.

One of my private pupes, now Year 8, is having a rough time of it. She's a real hippie child, a bit off the wall, incredibly musical and intelligent with a total passion for J S Bach (can't POSSIBLY imagine who may have encouraged this in her ). Since the beginning of this term her class music lessons have been "The X-Factor". The kids had to get into groups and pretend to compete a la X-Factor each week being "voted off" by their classmates. Poor kid explained it all to me, sighed and said "Bag, this does so NOT float my boat."

All I can do is give her as much of the quality she craves in our 45 minutes together each week....

Bx

We've been very lucky with Kingsley13's class music lessons. (She took grade 8 clarinet and grade7 piano in year 9 and was already grade 6 is on both when she started senior school.) He clarinet teacher is lovely and has at various points been the class music teacher too, so knew exactly what she was capable of. When they do group work they tend to mix the abilities, so there are say, two non musicians, a low grade musician and a higher grade musician in the group, so the more able ones guide the others and if nothing else are practising their leadership skills. The rest of the music staff also seem to have managed to keep her interested and challenged.

This happens frequently with a variety of subjects. I recommend you just grin and bear it until year 8, then I would start approaching the head of department about extension work.

Use the time in Year 7 for your son to settle in and explore other unfamiliar subjects/activities, (chess, Dance, choir) For the parents I suggest generally getting to know the staff and school. Dont rock the boat in Year 7, its not worth it. A good music teacher (or other subect) will find some way of stimulating an advance pupil eventually but does not need to be bombarded with "my johnny is diploma standard" so early in his arrival to secondary school. You can possibly only irritate her.

Work with your teacher, you do not want to be a disruptive parent, (yes it can happen) and Be patient. If your child is beings stretched musically outside to a satisfactory standard then recognise that there are other children within the school who have to be taught at a basic level, your child is one of 30, not one of one.

Y'know, I used to quite enjoy spending lessons doodling, flicking rubbers at the people in front of me, chatting, helping friends with their work, and generally cruising my way through school. I'm rather astonished that all these children seem to be moaning that they're bored. Surely they must be capable of filling dull lesson time with typical teenage activities and chaos causation...!? We used to look forward to 'doss' lessons... not moan about them.



*thinks back nostalgically to school days through very rosy tinted glasses*

Perhaps we don't want our children to become disruptive. After two years mine went down the disruptive approach and that's when something had to be done about it.

This is very sensible advice. Class music teachers have a very difficult time. It is one of the hardest subjects to teach. The raw material the teacher has to use is sound. Sound, in a clas of 30 young people is a very difficult thing to control as it immediately puts a weapon into the hands of those who wish to be disruptive.
There are no simple answers to the problems of able young musicians who find themselves stuck in a class where the majority know very little about music or have very different tastes and expectations from those doing music outside school. It does happen in other subjects but probably to a lesser extent.

The long term answer lies in the development of good solid class music teaching in the primary school so that all children move to secondary school with some basics in hand. But there I am probably dreaming.

I remember a class I had in a very difficult inner city school. they had had no regular music teacher for a year and were out to take me for a ride. But I noticed one girl sat throughout my lessons ignoring the racket and reading a book. When I asked her what she was reading it turned out to be something literary -I can't remember what - but way out of line with the sort of thing the rest of the class were interested in. I left her alone. She wasn't going to learn anything useful in my music lessons as I had to spend most of my time taming them and doing very elementary stuff. That girl was chosen to read from the Bible at the Carol Service and did so very beautifully. She was one of the tiny handful who went on to university. That story is a bit off topic but it may help to understand the class teacher's dilemma. I think we need to give class teachers conditions in which they can answer the needs of all children - but it's a dream.

OK - I'll let him become disruptive then.

One of my boys had to sit on a table at primary school with a girl who constantly kicked and poked him. Every so often he or I would complain and she'd be moved but she was always moved back because my son 'was a good influence on her'. Eventually, after about two years of this, he retaliated, just once, and trod on her very sore toe (when I asked him he admitted it was only partly accidentally!). I was hauled in to see the head and pointed out that this girl had been annoying him, with the class teacher's knowledge, for years. The head admitted that the girl's mother had said the same! It's so unfair that children are driven to bad behaviour when their inclination is otherwise. And it's sad that often nothing is done for children who are bored or being badly treated until they themselves become badly behaved.

In my opinion I don't think you should let him become disruptive and waste this time. If your child has the potential to become a professional musician, there is only a very short period of time during his childhood to reach the necessary standard.

Having read different threads about the problems with school music, I would like to share my positive experience.

My child was playing at grade 8ish level in year 5 and transferred to secondary (independant) school a year early. She was getting up at 5am in order to get her practise done and I was very pushy and I expect very annoying to the music staff but I believed that the school should support her and excuse her from activities - for example games, unecessary homework(!), after school activities etc and allow her time to practise, catch up with homework or simply rest. She didn't join in class music lessons until year 11 when she did gcse music in 1 year and is now doing music A level.

Over time the school and the music department have become incredibly supportive, allowing her all the time she needs to practise, including days off for competitions, festivals etc, putting on concerts for her and other advanced musicians to give them the opportunity to play their competition music in front of an audience - and more importantly very generous scholarships. They have allowed her to decide her own time-table so that she didn't have to take as many gcse's, in fact it would be difficult to list all the help that the staff, both music and academic have given her over the last 5 years.

I think it is worth talking to the music staff - many of them may not have come across these very talented children before and it is a learning curve for them as it has been for me.

Frances

Assuming he is not a disruptive boy normally, is there any reason he should become so?

Sometimes there is a child who is way better than the rest in one subject, many children show a particular talent in something at this age, be it sport, art, music, maths.
Unfortunately in a class of 30 their exact requirements cannot be catered for.
Both my daughters (and some of my pupils, including boys) have been way ahead from early on. They both have extra-curricular music in and out of the school, and the head of music uses my eldest in the older bands and musical activities, and is glad of her loyalty and enthusiasm to join in. During class, the other kids like her in their group as she lends a hand when they are stuck and doesn't constantly remind them she is of a higher grade/standard. She takes extra care with her homework and extends it a little where appropriate. She also at home spends time (off her own back) writing music, arranging piano music for quartets and orchestras, and, well, stretching herself I guess.
Class anything at school is based on a varied all round education to suit the majority, and is free to all. I know it has it's faults and can be frustrating sometimes, but as long as your son is getting his fill for the moment elsewhere musically, be careful your frustrations don't rub off on him and try to help him find positive ways of enjoying it instead.

Well, I for one would certainly not think it acceptable for my child to disrupt a lesson for others just because the lesson was not specially tailored for him/her, and would tell my child so!

Firstly the thing that scared me most was daughter being labelled disruptive. I worried that she would become disaffected and the unruly behaviour would transfer into other subjects. I hasten to add this isn't her normal character trait.

There are many ways to be disruptive in in our case it was mild showing off to irritate the teacher. The class loved what she was doing and wanted more. The teacher ignored it so it there was every chance it would esculate. She also started correcting the teacher who skills wise is quite weak. I didn't find any of this acceptable. When I met with the teacher it became obvious she wasn't bothered.

In State schools there just isn't going to be the support for musically talented children that there should be unless it is a performing arts status school.

Interestingly Frances I'm not sure that I would want my child to be given any special treatment. We never ask for reduced homework or a longer time frame. It's daughter's choice to be a musician and she shouldn't expect to be treated differently because of it. I know a few parents who do make those requests.

So would I like to share something positive.

A piano student of mine - just gone into Y7, only just done G3 but a very musical player, and streets ahead 90% of most of her peers even at that level.

She got herself noticed by her class music teacher because whenever she sees a keyboard she has to play it ( !) so they are giving her extension or different but related things to do in class - for example where the rest of the groups are fumbling to play greensleeves, she has been asked to put chords to it and then devise improvisations around it. She brought this to her next lesson with me and we just had the best time - we could build up some understanding of harmony in general, jazz harmony in particular, modes and jazz scales, how to notate some of her rhythms, how she might organise registrations on the keyboard or put together parts for others in the class, her choices as to form and structure for the finished piece.... Even talked about English composers' work on folksongs and sent her off with some listening homework too.

So hats off to the class music teacher for being positive and challenging - not threatened - about her abilities. Generally I think the gifted soloists should be given this sort of thing to do and always be encouraged to create things that others can participate in. In other words to look up from their very focused, skills based learning in instrumental lessons and see the wide world. I do feel quite strongly that school music is/should be not (only) about developing great solo musicianship - you really do need your own personal, specialist tutor for that. School music should be geared around putting in place an all-round understanding of classical and folk musical traditions and the many ways in which music making can be done - in co-operation with others and using a range of other instruments including voice apart from the one you may be concentrating your efforts on after school.

Yes time is limited for our very specially gifted and hard working future soloists and world class orchestral players, so I take on board Frances' point about her own daughters 'fast track' route, and I'm sure that was right for her.

But the most positive way as another poster has suggested is to use the small ensemble formations with carefully matched skills and approaches - and getting that right will take skill and observation and the music teacher cannot be expected to get that sorted straight away. I hope this starts to get sorted for the OP over the next couple of weeks...

Yippee - HoM rang me about something else and I asked if I could have 5 mins of her time... Explained the situation and she has promised that it shouldn't be a problem. There will obviously be those class lessons that he needs to do help with KS3 and GCSE prep - and he will need to show leadership skills to tick various boxes as far as the curriculum is concerned, but it should all be OK. So sometimes doing his own theory at the back of the class and other times practicing in one of the practice rooms. So happy Mum and happy child!

Hmm, perhaps I should have been clearer. I was a lot less disruptive that most of the other pupils I was sharing classes with, but still managed to fritter a lot of time and not get bored... Lessons don't require students to sit silently all the time, and there are plenty of ways to spend 'working' time, once you've finished what you're supposed to be doing, with or without causing whole classroom disruption.

The school music I've seen mentioned here is far superior to what I experienced, where most of my lessons didn't involve anything other than copying out text from a book or worksheet and doing 'english comprehension' style questions on the text.. I think we probably listened to a piece of music one lesson in 5, and touched an instrument about once or twice per school year. I was very glad to only have to put up with this unmitigated tedium once a week. Despite this, I don't remember moaning about it, that's just what school was often like!

Hopefully that puts my comments in a bit more context. I don't mean to stamp on parents concerns, but... *sigh* Perhaps these children are fortunate enough to be in schools where bored-talented-childisruption actually rates on the scale! I know mine never did... I got away with everything!



And I'm glad many parents have had positive outcomes with their schools.

I agree with this sentiment. My son has also just started in Yr7. He is Grade 7 on violin and Grade 6ish on piano. Music lessons are at this stage a bit basic for him but he has lots of musical activities out of school and to a certain extent in school that we are encouraging him to enjoy what is on offer in class. There are plenty of children who are advanced in various subjects who are also expected to attend regular lessons with the rest of the class - why should music be any different? I would certainly be cross with my son if I thought he was being disruptive because he was bored. At secondary school age, they are more than old enough to exercise self discipline and to develop ways of keeping their interest levels up. While the children in his class are learning how to play Ode to Joy on the keyboard, my son tries to see if he can play it with different moods, chords, or in a different key. They all wear head phones so he is not disrupting the others.

My son was lucky enough to go to state primary school that offered lots of music. As parents we encouraged him so that despite coming from a non-musical family his abilities have been supported. Other children will not have had the same opportunities that he has had and it is important for him that he recognises that. I would not want him to become so arrogant about his abilities that he thinks that it is not possible to learn something from someone who is at a less advanced stage than him. He is very special to us, his parents, but at school is just one boy in the class and that is how it should be. Year 7 is very much about settling in and taking personal responsibility for study, his other musical outlets are for him to get his most musical satisfaction.

Having said all that, your son may not be bored because he knows more than the others, it may be that the lessons are boring for all children of all abilities in his class and that is more worrying...

Hils, that is a really lovely story. I agree, hats off to the class teacher and hats off to you too, for seeing such a wonderful opportunity and being flexible enough to run with it and build on what was being done in class. This sort of widening of musical horizons is exactly what I would like for my children (and I try to do some of this stuff at home based on what my daughter tells me about her school music lessons - I'm not as knowledgeable as her music teachers but I can certainly pull out a recording or two, or fiddle around with her on the piano, or sing variations on things she has done at school with her. Little brother will also pull out his recorder and join in! As a result of this, she is now voluntarily playing around with putting chords and harmonies to things they have learnt in choir - sometimes she'll sit down at the piano and try to play something by ear.) Music lessons are at a VERY basic level at her primary school because few children in the class have learnt an instrument or know any theory of any sort - that's fine, I understand that it has to be pitched at the most basic level or the other kids would be lost and that would be most unfair. Sadly, the music teacher doesn't seem to have much idea about what to do with the kids who are more musically advanced and so we haven't had the same positive experiences - but at least he was prepared to let daughter do her cello practice in lesson time and I am grateful for this (just wish there had been a room somewhere where she could have gone to work without interruption, but schools are limited in classroom space and in teacher time and it isn't an ideal world.......some of the kids seem to have enjoyed her playing, anyway!)

It isn't just music, we have had to pitch in and help her with other subjects too (Maths needed clarification of some concepts as she wasn't asking the teacher and didn't get enough practice on the basics - not sure she was grateful for our help but she will be later! Nah, she is glad to know what she is doing, just more cranky with us than with teacher, pretty normal really. English - the other day she was supposed to write an explanation but didn't really understand what an introduction was - so sat down and gave her some examples, which seemed to help). I don't mind doing this at one level, as I have the knowledge and can spend more one-to-one time with her than her class teacher (and I guess that is the advantage that private teachers have over classroom teachers too) - just can get fairly fraught when she kicks up at me (she would never do this with her normal teachers, but then, I'm her mum!) and then I have to back off and let her drown until she settles down. I also worry about the kids who don't have parents at home who are either prepared or equipped to help.......

I'm rambling, sorry! Just wanted to say it is really encouraging to hear of teachers working so effectively with children in this way and exactly what I would love to see for every child in an ideal world. No, boredom won't kill a child - but what a loss of an opportunity to engage them, get those brain cells connecting in different ways, look at how to get kids to learn from each other - adolescence and especially middle school is a time when children really need all of those things working as well as possible, because there are major structural changes in a way which never quite happens again later in life. It just makes me sad when that doesn't happen - and delighted when it does! So lovely news for all of those for whom things are going well and crossed fingers that for others teachers like Hils will come along somewhere in our children's lives.

Wolfnotes