I have a minor problem with one of my new pupils, a 12 year old girl on piano. She is quite keen but so far has refused to cut her nails, with the result she has to play flat fingered. I think this is bad for technique and will hinder future progress, even if she gets away with it now. I know girls this age may prefer nice long nails like this, but it is a practicality for piano. I have tried gently suggesting she makes them short, and after about 4 lessons still nothing happened. So at what point do you give a 'cut your nails or quit' ultimatum?

I suggest that they might need to be cut to play faster and there will be a limit to what can be achieved if their not cut. That's all. I don't make any compromise on hand position. They have to play on their nail tips. - But then again so do I as I have guitar nails on one hand.

Yes it is bad for technique, - yes it will hinder progress, but to be honest as long as you have let her know that and point out the technique regularly I don't think there is much more you can do, I wouldn't advise the cut or quit ultimatum. If she is serious, sooner or later they will come in short.

Having said that - moss doesn't grow on a busy street, I am playing alot, and my nails only ever grow when I'm on holiday.

I don't think that giving an ultimatum is so acceptable these days.
I just keep on mentioning it and pointing out the difference in my hand position and theirs and how the nails get in the way.
I also talk about the danger of getting nails caught between the keys in scale passages... .
It can take some time to get to the point where the nails get shorter and probably depends on how well they want to play to some extent. When it begins to matter it will happen. Unfortunately until then I don't think there's much you can do.


I have to sort mine out every week whether I'm playing or not.

Ah! A pet hate of mine! Long fingernails!

Long nails do get in the way of good piano technique, perhaps moreso for someone who is learning and not yet developed a good technique. The tips of the fingers need to be in contact with the keys and the pupil needs to learn to trust her sense of 'feel' on the keys. I often find students with long nails need to look down more because they physically can't feel their fingers touching the keys: the end of the nails are dead. Then of course, this leads to sight reading problems!

In a five-fingered position, for legato or staccato playing, the fingertips should be touching the keys. It's only when you start to stretch that the 'pads' of the fingers come into play more. When playing on the pads of your fingers, nails are not quite as intrusive.

When it comes to getting my students to cut their nails, I've learn not to beat around the bush. I'm not unkind, but I say outright, "Your nails are too long. They're getting in the way". I also write 'please cut your nails' on their lesson notes, so if it becomes an issue, we can look back and see how many times I've had to ask! For a younger child, I can mention it to the parents and explain how much it gets in the way. To be honest, if I had a decent rapport with the parents of your 12-year old, I wouldn't hestitate in mentioning it to them. The trick is not to ask, but to tell! Don't go on about it for ages. Be concise. These nails get in the way of your job, and the pupil/parent is paying you to do your job properly.

Of course, if a student just forgets to cut their nails for the occasional lesson, that's different and you have to let that go.

I inherited a 12 year old student who'd had pretty poor tuition up to Grade 3. She played with straight fingers, lifted her hands up all the time for no reason, and she couldn't sight read two adjacent notes without looking down. After about 6 months of long nails, and me asking her and mentioning it to her Mum (who understood and tried, but kept forgetting), she still turned up to say, 85% of lessons with long nails. So, in the end, I told her that if she arrived with long nails, I'd have to teach her theory for the lesson. She was behind on her theory anyway, and needed it to continue with her clarinet exams. I explained it frustrated me that she'd only be able to benefit form half of what I taught in piano and she finally realised how serious I was... everything's ok now!

I suggest you ask her whether she prefers to be vain or to be to be a good pianist; The two cannot live together, and if she prefers vanity to achievement her lessons with must end, as you cannot bear to see her good talent wasted. Busylizzie

Being a cat I naturally grow superb claws. The amount of piano playing I do at any one time is directly proportional to the length of said claws! Flat fingers I can get away with until those stinky accompaniments crop up towards exam time, so then we jus chop the ol' claws off.

Best way for this pupe to learn, however, is to learn the hard way; there is little more painful than catching a claw inbetween piano keys believe me (wince)!

Good luck.

Bx

This drives me nuts with one pupil too, she's an adult so I have no higher power to appeal to! I mention it every lesson, and she used just to nod and ignore me, but recently agreed to 'try' cutting her nails short the day before, to 'see if it makes a difference'!

Hopefully she'll realise what I'm talking about if she actually does it - they're all different lengths anyway so I don't see how vanity plays much of a part, so I just don't get it.

She plays with flat fingers instead of on her actual nails - I may try to get her to play on the nails just to drive the point home...

I had an adult too who had this problem. Even when her nails were short-ish, they were never short enough, just a bit shorter than at other times.

She always claimed that she couldn't cut them herself, and had to wait for an appointment ...

we never did get anywhere with her playing.

I teach in a girl's Grammar school and see alot of this!
I couldn't really care less about my own nails ( got better things to do than file really) but now keep my hands and nails as nice looking as I can, neatly filed with some clear polish and show them how nice nails can look even when short. Then I add the odd offhand compliment about the shape of their hands or elegant long fingers! It does gradually sink in this way I have found, rather than constantly nagging.
Of course then every time they trip over a scale or make a mistake we look at eachother and they smile sheepishly..

There was someone on here who said that they had once played in a concert with too-long nails, caught one of them somehow and managed to break her finger! (That story might put them off...)

Out of interest (I've never had piano lessons) how short/long are your fingernails supposed to be? I'm partly curious because I honestly cannot cut/file my fingernails so that they are below the ends of my fingers. I have really long nail beds (if that's the right word) and the white part of my nails starts right at the end of my fingertips! I did try once to cut them short enough so that the tips of my fingers were above the ends of my nails and gave up after they started bleeding.
Luckily the length of my nails doesn't seem to affect my (in)ability to play the flute!

I like mine no longer than the ends of my fingers though a little longer is not too bad.

That's what I do for my adult student whose nails are too long. I say 'Well, your nails are too long today so to get this right you should be playing ON them...dig your nails into the keys.... Now, if your nail weren't in the way, you'd be able to grip the keys better.' I don't say this in a nagging way. It's all in the tone of voice. Hard to put across online!

Ellie, I'd say just cut your nails as short as you can. You can't do much more than that!

And as for vanity, well of course you can be a pianist and be vain! Vanity manifests itself in various ways. I never cut my nails when I was 13-14. I just liked them long. Perhaps, as a teenager I was over-conscious of my appearance, but I'm afraid that's teenagers for you! I've always ADORED music with a passion. If my teacher had told me that having long nails made me a vain person or was evidence that I was not really interested in piano, I'd have been mortified! What's more, I'd have really disliked that teacher and not wanted to go to lessons.

In the end, I got used to having shorter nails when I really found they were getting in the way, and also, because I started with a new (female) teacher, and somehow, being a girl, I could relate to a woman better, and respected her opinion. As far as I was concerned, my previous male teacher knew nothing about finger nails, so why should I listen to him! Of course, I don't have this view now. This is just what I thought at the time).

Just catching up on the posts on the forum and came across the 'fingernails' topic and I've got to say that piano playing and long nails don't mix at all!!! It is so annoying to teach a lesson only to hear 'tap tap tap' on the keys.

I have two pupils, both had lovely long nails but when it came to playing, it really stopped their progress and made them play with their fingers flat - not good! So, I said to both girls that it would be best to cut them and that they would find playing the piano a whole lot easier. To my relief, both girls trimmed their nails and have kept them trim ever since as they realised how much they have improved in their playing since cutting them off.

I think that once you have convinced a pupil to get rid of the nails, they really do feel/hear the difference and are more likely to stick with keeping them cut back.

For those who refuse to cut their nails, I would say to them how much better their technique, finger position would be which in turn would make a big improvement in their playing. Also, they can save growing the long nails for the holidays!

Not being strong on subtlety, or the indirect approach, I don't see any problem with an ultimatum. You have already tried the softly-softly approach.

For every skill or subject area there are certain specific requirements. For example I would not have someone in swimming lessons that refused to get their face and hair wet. They might, one day, manage a particularly poor and inefficient breaststroke, but they'll never become at home in the water. An for piano playing nails must be short. That is the end of the matter. You are the teacher. You know best, and in any case it is not just about establishing your authority - you can back up the requirement with convincing arguments.

So far as actually teaching the instrument goes I think an ultimatum is in order. The mistake was failing to check the girl's hands and make make it plain BEFORE accepting her as a student that nails must be kept short. I would have it listed in my terms and conditions.

The only real problem is if you are afraid of losing the student after an ultimatum, and you need the income.

Neil are you sure it's a refusal and not just forgetfullness.

I chew my nails so cutting fingernails is not something that I tend to think about it and I am always forgetting to cut my daughter's fingernails (she can do her left-hand herself but not her right-hand). She doesn't like having them cut (not for vanity but because she feels she is losing a part of herself) and so never reminds me. I work long days on Mondays and Tuesdays and my daughter's lesson is on Wednesday morning. Very often I remember that I haven't cut her nails as we are walking into the music school (and of course I don't have a pair of scissors in my bag).

Last week her teacher wrote "cut nails" alongside what to practise. Since her notebook stays open beside the piano all week, I read the reminder as I picked the book up to put it in her bag and for once cut her nails just before the lesson.

I agree with Mad Tom on this one. You don't play foodball in high heels so you don't play the piano with long nails. Long nails are in any case not particularly pretty, often hiding dirt and if they prevent people from olaying the piano, think what other activities they must inhibit. They are, in my humble opinions (and I wait to be jumoed on) just another silly expression of so-called femininity. I think they are prissy and having spent hours in the classroom with teenage girls I can't say I have much patience with those who spend a lot of time admiring their hands instead of getting on with the job in hand.

There are doubltless good reasons for some people to have long fingernails - guitarists being one example - but I can only imagine long nails to be a disadvantage in many daily tasks. On the whole men don't go in for long polished varnished nails because they know about using their hands for work. That does not mean that nails cannot be neatly kept and look good.

As far as my piano pupils are concerned they get two warnings. The first is of the pleasant chatty verbal kind. The second is a note to parents in their practce books. If there is no improvement we do theory until the nails are cut. That is what I tell them but I have never had to go that far.

Totally agree ellie.. some of my fingers are like this, and I've passed it on to my daughter. I just do the best I can with those particular fingers, and occasionally I tap on the piano keys - nothing I can do about it. I can't cut the nails too short otherwise it makes the fingers sore and that prevents me playing properly anyway.

But I do have teenage girls with long nails and go through all the routines - chatty reminder, reminder in notebook. Haven't got as far as an ultimatum because generally by the 3rd week the nails have got so long they cut them anyway.

I had an adult who came for lessons with beautifully manicured long nails. I couldn't really say anything, so we soldiered on for a few weeks, but eventually she found her business interfered with lessons, and I haven't seen her (for lessons) since.

I think it also depends on whether you are someone who is happy with and in a position to be able to be choosy about teaching only those who have what you consider a 'real' interest in learning to play.
In real life most of our students are happy just to manage to play a bit. They enjoy their lessons (they wouldn't keep coming) but are not (yet?) at the stage where really taking notice of details like good technique matters to them at all. Yes, we do keep on top of it as far as possible but sometimes there are limits to how much notice someone is going to take. Hopefully in not coming down too heavily too soon you manage to keep the interst going long enough for these things to begin to matter.

Never could understand the attraction in having lots of dead tissue on the ends of ones fingers*, and they click on the piano keys.
OTOH hair is also dead tissue, I suppose and I have been known to tie mine up and swim 70-80 lengths of the baths getting it only slightly wet, unless the pool is crowded with boisterous children.

*unless you play the guitar, of course.

Thanks for mostly good advice, and interesting many have had similar experiences. I disagree strongly with Mad Tom (who if I recall doesn't actually teach). To be honest I didn't think I should so directly give a 'cut or quit' ultimatum, but I suppose that impression could be created. I'm tempted to let her find the hard way it makes things more difficult. She seems keen to progress, so it will catch up with her sooner or later, certainly when scale passages crop up.

Mad Tom has given us all a lot of expert and valued tuition on here over the years!!

But n.c I'm glad you have been able to come to a conclusion here anyway.

Just had to share - after reading this thread earlier today, was highly amused in the car on our way to daughter's cello lesson after school when I saw her pulling out a pair of nail clippers and cutting her nails en route! (I hasten to add that she does cut them at home too......when she gets uncomfortable enough and they start getting in the way of working higher up the cello). Am looking forward to having a quiet giggle with teacher about this at some point - so take heart, Neil-clarinet, the ones who want to get better eventually get the message that long nails are a dratted nuisance!

Wolfnotes

i used to have violin lessons in the day when everything you say or do or breath wasn;'t politically incorrect... my violin teacher used to carry nail clippers around with him, so if you turned up to a lesson with long nails, out would come the clippers!!! must hasten to add, i never had them come out for me... i was a good little girl

one of my pupils like having her falsey on now and again, and i always tell her off and they always get caught... i told her one day they will ping off and hit her in the eye!!

I used to bite my nails on the bus on the way to school on the day of my violin lesson!! I knew the teacher would comment, and would do anything to avoid it!

My friend had a teacher who told her that if she didn't cut her nails by the next lesson she would get the garden shears out!!!
I think it did the trick though...

Record the person playing? If you put a sensitive mic up close enough they will hopefully be mortified to hear their performance sounds like that, especially if they are about to do an exam and try to deliver a beautiful legato passage and it just sounds like someone is knocking a nail in!

If I am ever going anywhere I need my hands to look really special I just get false nails.

That is a good idea!! I'm sure that would convince many to cut their nails!

I've actually had a 13 year old girl request ardently for me to keep nail scissors in my teaching room (after I told her off for hers being too long). I told her this defeated the object: she had to rememer herself, and had to practise during the week with her nails a suitable length too. I figured if she can't give 5 minutes thought to something this simple, she can't be that commited, and I didn't want to eat into her lesson time or her potentially cut her finger if she did it in lesson - it's be s*d's law if she did!

My daughter's nails grow really fast. If I cut them when she comes home from her piano lesson (which I tend to do because I forgot to do it before she went) they need cutting again by the following week.

I just write in their notebooks 'cut your nails, please!'.

I have super-nails then, I generally trim mine 3 times a week.

I think it's good to have opinions at both ends of the spectrum, and I do see Mad Tom's point. It's infuriating to have to battle against the odds.

I do think we can overestimate how seriously our pupils take our lessons, though. We aren't all in the position of only taking on highly talented and highly committed people, who will go to any lengths. Sbhoa is right that many just want to play a bit. It's our job, as teachers, though, to try to develop this into a love of music and a stronger desire to play more than a bit. Maybe the answer is to develop a love of Mozart and let her find out for herself that it just ain't possible to play his music with long nails! She's probably wavering at the minute. If long nails are a particular fad amongst her friends at the minute, then it's probably pretty important to her to wear the uniform, but this could change. The fad could fizzle out, or her priorities could change. If she's a good pupil in every other way, as in she practises well and is good to teach, then I'd just live in hope that she'll make her own decision on this one.

Mind you - have you ever watched Horowitz play?