This may sound strange, but I never needed to remember how to draw Circle of 5th for G5 theory exam. I know what it looks like, but never bothered to remember how to draw it. Instead we remembered how to draw "Key Signature chart" . This was quicker, and easier for both my 10 year old and I to remember, and it worked very well. We never needed to refer to Circle of 5th for G5 while we prepared ourselves for G5. Has anybody found the same? At least drawing straight lines were easier for me than drawing circles...

I think it's a very individual thing. For some, the circle of 5ths will help, others seem to find it more trouble than it's worth (thinking of some of my students here!) It all depends on what works for you. I didn't use it for any theory exams, nor key signature charts either - I just learnt the various key signatures.

I don't teach either. I generally teach my theory students that the relative minor is 3 semitones down and that you can look at a key signature and find the major key: for sharps, the last sharp is the leading note and for flats, the penultimate flat is the key note. Along with this, they learn Father Charles Goes... etc etc..

I know it's quite detailed, but I introduce some of this from as early as Grade 2, so it's just a metter of building, really.

Just out of interest, why do you think a student might benefit from the types of diagrams you describe?

My teacher has used those rules and the "Father Charles Goes..." and the "Battle Ends And...." phrases with me. It's stuck well and is much easier than the other methods I've come across

I have never used either, and can't really see why they would help. I suppose when you play a string instrument if you want a quick reference without counting up and down to the perfect 5th you just think if I put this many fingers on the next string what would I have. I suppose maybe for someone who is really, really visual, but when I tried to think out how I remember my key sigs it's entirely visual from the stave, mentally there must be a sharp there, there, there, there and there, then I check it by playing a scale through on my mental piano.

I've never had to use an aid to memory for key signatures. I just learned them as I went along so it wasn't a matter of learning a whole lot at once. I also learned how to work out the next sharp or flat and how you can find the key in a simlar way to the one Twinkle describes.
I tend to teach from the understanding how it fits together point of view first BUT some people do need a little something extra to help out.

Of course it isn't essential, and there are many different ways of writing down the information.

I find it helpful to teach the circle of fifths to my students so that they understand how it is derived and can reproduce it from basic principles if necessary. They write it out, along with the relative minors and a smal keyboard diagram at the beginning of their theory exam, so that they have a reliable reference point.

Having said that, I never learnt it that way myself as a child, and consequently had to simply memorise - I managed OK, but it makes much more sense to me to have a system. Just a personal preference.

I don't see how it's complicated - you only have to remember 3 facts,
1. start at C
2. up a fifth for each sharp key
3. down a fifth for each flat key
and you can work out everything else from that.

On the other hand I never found mnemonics helpful at all.

Chris

The circle of 5ths, to me, was a visual aide to understanding the process of working out key signatures etc, and confirmed what I already knew. I have found no need to write it down before tackling past theory papers, but a drawing of a keyboard with a couple of octaves is invaluable.

We all need different prompts!

I never drew the circle of 5ths either for my theory exams, I do know that some did though as they were asking for lots of paper so that they could draw it as soon as the exam started.

Each to his own, if it helps then great, if you don't need it then what is the point of drawing it, just takes up exam time.

ET

The key signature chart gives, I think, the same of information you can get from the circle of fifth, but in a different form. Now having read other posters comments - I cannot even remember why I learnt to draw the key signature chart... maybe simply because it said so in Theory is Fun Grade 5! I found this chart was a lot easier form to write down than the circle of 5th.
I am somewhat relieved to find out that many of you, professional musicians/teachers do not find much of the the C of 5th. I thought I was missing something really important not knowing how make use of it! I can tell, however, straight away by referring to the key signature chart, that 6 sharps means either Fsharp major or Dsharp minor. Without the chart, I have to work out FCGD.... and 3 semitones below...etc, which will take a bit of time, as I haven't remembered much beyond 4 sharps/4flats!

Fascinating that everyone has a different trick to recall key signatures....

I had never heard of the Circle of Fifths until after grade 5, and then I found it came into its own. I feel it's a great tool for not only creating a reference for key signatures, but also it enables me to see the closely related keys at a glance...

Take any key at random (say, C# minor), and the key clockwise from it is the dominant - G# minor, the key anti-clockwise is the subdominant - F# minor, and the key directly alongside it in the circle is the relative major - E Major...

simples...

denmark

Thanks for that reminder - looks like the circle of 5ths as a visual aide will be more use in the exams for the higher grades, when tackling more composition, modulations etc.

I am about to take Grade 5 and I will be using:
- circle of fifths
- drawing of the keyboard
- Father Charles etc

I find that I need to take a belt and braces approach and triple check everything - blame it on the pregnancy brain but I don't trust myself to just remember any key signatures beyond three flats or sharps!

I've always looked upon the Circle of Fifiths as a concept rather than something to be drawn out.

I remember my dad going on about it to explain stradella bass on an accordion. I didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

Anyway I'm in the camp that says all you have to do is start at C and count up or down - which is linear not circular. Of course the reason it's a circle is that (as in politics) if you go round far enough in one direction you end up at the opposite side and then back where you started.

Of course the more you actually use a key the less you have to rely on working out what accidentals are in it. You just know.

Absolutely. When I've taken theory exams, I often write on the spare bit of paper FCGDAEB, if feeling in a particularly dense mood I might even write CGDAEBC# underneath it, for example if I need to know what major ends on what sharp.
But, I've never ever drawn a piano/keyboard shape on the paper, and have never understood how that's of any help for, well, anything - even though I see it recommend a LOT. I just use lines and spaces on the manuscript paper if I need to do 'manual counting' though I never did intervals by counting that way. Though I've never played a keyboard instrument, so that might be why!

I can understand in that case why drawing a keyboard may not be useful - you've already developed methods which are stronger, so having to work everything out on the keys would be a backwards step.

When I teach theory, I always try to use the keyboard even for non-piano students (if I can catch them early enough). I just think it's one more tool to use, if you can first learn to understand the tool a bit! The main benefit I can see for this is that they can hear the sounds we're talking about as they learn, and this can feed into aural skills. For example at Grade 5 when we talk about chords and cadences, I get them to play some of their harmonisations or when we're doing intervals, they can hear what each sounds like. Even if their piano technique is rubbish, and they can't really play at all, they usually benefit from 'doodling' like this. That's one of the advantages of piano: anyone can just 'press a button' and make a sound. (I want to make clear though that for actual piano lessons, I don't advocate the same approach!)

Do people think other instruments could be used in theory tuition? I suppose the obvious example is hearing and understanding perfect 5ths for string tuning or perfect 4ths in guitar. But maybe the piano is alone in that all the notes are there in front of you, they don't have to be found through fingering?

The two key facts facts are that if you start on any note and move through the keys by going up (or down) a fifth repeatedly, then you end up back in the key that you started in, and that the key signature adds a sharp (removes a flat) each step in the upward direction (or conversely removes a sharp, adds a flat in the downward).

The circle diagram is just one way of illustrating it, that some may find useful.

Being able to HEAR it is more important.

I actually started learning theory before playing an instrument (yes I'm mad) so I didn't have any physical image to work from. But certainly instruments other than piano can be used. It is undoubtedly very useful in that it is polyphonic but even in oboe lessons we often discuss harmony with respect to how a piece develops or how say oboe and piano relate to each other at a particular point. Playing arpeggios, dominant and diminished sevenths helps reinforce harmonys.

It's not something I would introduce to a student until they already knew enough key signatures to be able to see that there is a regular pattern there.
In the same way I wouldn't generally use mnemonics for line/space notes until they already see how the notes 'work' on the stave.
I also like to teach that the mnior scale starts on the 6th degree of the related major (beginning with the natural minor). I might later show that inverting this gives you the 'shorter' route of going down 3.
I prefer as far as possible to start with understanding how things work then add a memory aid if it's needed.

I'm sure that's the sensible approach. If you know how to derive something you don't need to remember (often forgetable) mnemonics.

Hear hear! In fact, the only way I remember mnemonics is knowing the answer and working backwards
(with an exception for the colours of the rainbow - I can see a use for mnemonics to remember random bits of information which can't be worked out from first principles).

Chris

It's different bits of the jigsaw, really, isn't it?

I introduce whatever I feel might be helpful at any one point with any given student. I agree that aids before understanding don't really work.

I recently inherited an adult student who is preparing for grade 3. Pieces quite well on the way (not for this term though). Scales - a couple for the grade are familiar. But at the second lesson I realised that the only ones known are from the grade 3 scale book - earlier exams have not been done so the corresponding scales are not known. I have used part of the circle of fifths to try to put the # major scales for the grade into context - I think it's helping so far and we now know G and D as well as A and E.

I always found the Father Charles Nmemonic forgetable and just learnt FCGDAEB. My younger daughter has been taught a more memorable nmemonic

Father Christmas Gave Dad An Electric Blanket
Blanket Exploded And Dad Got Cold Feet.


The main purpose of drawing the keyboard I found was for semitones, so that I didn't slip up and get an interval wrong. When I went into the exam I drew the keyboard, Key signatures chart and a chart of tones and semitones in major and minor scales. Why anyone would find that time consuming I can't imagine. They give so much time for grade 5 theory that it is a struggle to stay in there for more than half of it, even with thorough checking.

I agree. It is nice though that there's no time problem. It's one less thing for a student to worry about.

When I was doing A-level my music teacher taught us Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle, but she didn't know the mnemonic for the flats! Nobody realised you could just reverse it... So instead, I made up my own: Birds Eat Alex (i.e. me) Don't Get Confused Forever. It's funny because I jokingly used to teach that to my Grade 5 students (telling them the story, too). Then one day, a student explained you can reverse Father Charles. I felt like a bit of an idiot...but it was funny! Strangely enough though, to this day, I still catch myself saying my original aide memoire. When they stick, they stick!

I hadn't come across this one before I got onto this forum but I've seen it mentioned quite a bit so I guess it's common. One thing confuses me though. Why start on F?

Because it's a mnemonic for the order in which sharps (and reversed flats) appear in the key signature and not for Keys themselves.

Doh!! I still don't like it though. OK it tells you what accidental comes next but does it help you to associate the key and the accidentals?

I was taught:
Father Christmas Goes Downstairs And Eats Breakfast

Pushpull - no it doesn't really help with associating keys with accidentals I think it is just which order you add in the sharps and flats. Circle of 5ths is more helpful I think, depending on how you learn things. I generally know most of the majors, tend to work out which is the relative minor by going up a minor third from the major. But going into an exam I liked to be able to have a reliable way of working it out in case of memory fail!

I hope you mistyped that?
The minor starts on the 6th note of it's related major so it's up a major 6th or DOWN a minor 3rd.